Bearer of bad news :(

[Ring]

If you fall into a certain theory then yes Ivy is damn near untouchable. That theory being never getting close enough to do anything, and when you do, 9B, the hell sweep, her grabs, and that super evade await you. Also she does alot of SG damage. It doesn't hurt having moves that can keep you at a distance. Now I say theory, but that's what you see a lot when Malek or Scud play her, some players never really get close enough to matter.

That's because after all these years people still lack some knowledge about Ivy (but that's not surprising.. How many great Ivy players are out there and how many of them travel?). You would be surprised how many people still don't know that you can JF Ukemi CL236BB to avoid SW 3B+K force block for example. Many of these hated moves are pretty balanced, they have strengths and weaknesses.

@Sephalump, I agree, her SG is one of the best in the game but that's because of a few certain moves (mainly something like SW BB which is clearly broke or WP 6B+K2_8 which seems to be too much for a lot of people) Her force blocks are crap (only 1 is actually "guaranteed" to my knowledge) and can be avoided mostly.

 

[damn-I-Suck]

GI that.

Again you fail to provide any reasonable argument to back up your "theory".

Look no further than this forum for your "reasons". I see no point in explaining what has been explained already by people who said it better than I could anyway. As far as my "theory", you would be quite wrong if you said it was mine and mine alone. I have simply jumped on the bandwagon.

 

[Mitalius]

Look no further than this forum for your "reasons". I see no point in explaining what has been explained already by people who said it better than I could anyway. As far as my "theory", you would be quite wrong if you said it was mine and mine alone. I have simply jumped on the bandwagon.

 

[Sporko]

You guys are all haters. Voldo is the coolest character in the history of fighting games. Quit hatin'!

 

[Mitalius]

You guys are all haters. Voldo is the coolest character in the history of fighting games. Quit hatin'!

 

[damn-I-Suck]

why do I see this exact response outside of 8wayrun on other forums all over the place? The picture isnt the same but the " U MAD?" is the same. wierd.

And if I was mad, who cares.

 

[sephalump]

That's because after all these years people still lack some knowledge about Ivy (but that's not surprising.. How many great Ivy players are out there and how many of them travel?). You would be surprised how many people still don't know that you can JF Ukemi CL236BB to avoid SW 3B+K force block for example. Many of these hated moves are pretty balanced, they have strengths and weaknesses.

@Sephalump, I agree, her SG is one of the best in the game but that's because of a few certain moves (mainly something like SW BB which is clearly broke or WP 6B+K2_8 which seems to be too much for a lot of people) Her force blocks are crap (only 1 is actually "guaranteed" to my knowledge) and can be avoided mostly.

Hm then I guess its my ignorance that hands her wins. in truth I haven't studied the match up beyond how to survive against her. I think that whip 6B+K2_8 would be balanced if you could GI it like Zasalamel's 6kB. Small window, but a 4G would heal their gauge and pull her in. In all politeness FUCK sword BB and coil 1B,B+K.:)

 

[Ring]

Look no further than this forum for your "reasons". I see no point in explaining what has been explained already by people who said it better than I could anyway. As far as my "theory", you would be quite wrong if you said it was mine and mine alone. I have simply jumped on the bandwagon.

Why jump on a wagon created by people who prefer to complain rather than search for solutions? And nothing has been explained really, I can assure you of that. It seems only Ivy players know her real weaknesses and how to exploit them but almost none are eager to share that knowledge.

Hm then I guess its my ignorance that hands her wins. in truth I haven't studied the match up beyond how to survive against her. I think that whip 6B+K2_8 would be balanced if you could GI it like Zasalamel's 6kB. Small window, but a 4G would heal their gauge and pull her in. In all politeness FUCK sword BB and coil 1B,B+K.:)

I don't know your main character, but several characters can punish WP 6B+K2_8 on block and on hit. It's not NC so if you happen you get hit by the first hit and block the second one you will be much closer to her and she's at -24. On block it's completely safe vs everyone only when used at far range.

Fuck SW BB and 8wr CL 1B,B+K :p

 

[sephalump]

Why jump on a wagon created by people who prefer to complain rather than search for solutions? And nothing has been explained really, I can assure you of that. It seems only Ivy players know her real weaknesses and how to exploit them but almost none are eager to share that knowledge.


I don't know your main character, but several characters can punish WP 6B+K2_8 on block and on hit. It's not NC so if you happen you get hit by the first hit and block the second one you will be much closer to her and she's at -24. On block it's completely safe vs everyone only when used at far range.

Fuck SW BB and 8wr CL 1B,B+K :p

I'm a Cervantes mostly. Personally that range is what i mean, the combination of pushing them back out, a tug off axis, good soul gauge damage seems really tough to level with. I normally try to dash in then step when I block it. At mid range I can iGDR if I'm feeling confident or I think 66A. However I'm actually fortunate since a B+K evade owns it and she has a pretty heavu recovery. I can deal with it due to my character but i can see how for some players who don't have such a great option could say its o.p.

 

[damn-I-Suck]

I put myself on the bandwagon because, like others, I hope the next game nerfs IVY. As far as solutions, it boils down to waiting for her to do a move that doesn't pushback so much just so that I'm in range of hitting her, then only then is there a marginally slim chance than my move comes first, because even if her move is input a few frames AFTER mine, hers still comes first, which knocks me down/pushes me away and starts the whole stupid unfair distance game with IVY all over again.

I put myself on the bandwagon because she seems has the longest reach and yet still manages to be WAY faster than the other long reachers, like Sieg, NM, and astaroth, while at the same time her damage is almost as high as the 3 mentioned. Think you can beat her by rushing in? think again, her close up quick moves most likely come first to yours as well. Fighting IVY is having a very thin niche of range that is effective, while all other ranges leave you outclassed. Doesn't matter who you use, your window of opportunity is small against her.

 

[sephalump]

I put myself on the bandwagon because, like others, I hope the next game nerfs IVY. As far as solutions, it boils down to waiting for her to do a move that doesn't pushback so much just so that I'm in range of hitting her, then only then is there a marginally slim chance than my move comes first, because even if her move is input a few frames AFTER mine, hers still comes first, which knocks me down/pushes me away and starts the whole stupid unfair distance game with IVY all over again.

I put myself on the bandwagon because she seems has the longest reach and yet still manages to be WAY faster than the other long reachers, like Sieg, NM, and astaroth, while at the same time her damage is almost as high as the 3 mentioned. Think you can beat her by rushing in? think again, her close up quick moves most likely come first to yours as well. Fighting IVY is having a very thin niche of range that is effective, while all other ranges leave you outclassed. Doesn't matter who you use, your window of opportunity is small against her.

I'm not here to start a fight, but do you happen to be playing online? Ivy online can be super bull. Please answer with a post on my profile if youre interested in talking I'be been off topic most my posts and don't want to do it anymore.

 

[Ring]

I put myself on the bandwagon because, like others, I hope the next game nerfs IVY. As far as solutions, it boils down to waiting for her to do a move that doesn't pushback so much just so that I'm in range of hitting her, then only then is there a marginally slim chance than my move comes first, because even if her move is input a few frames AFTER mine, hers still comes first, which knocks me down/pushes me away and starts the whole stupid unfair distance game with IVY all over again.

I put myself on the bandwagon because she seems has the longest reach and yet still manages to be WAY faster than the other long reachers, like Sieg, NM, and astaroth, while at the same time her damage is almost as high as the 3 mentioned. Think you can beat her by rushing in? think again, her close up quick moves most likely come first to yours as well. Fighting IVY is having a very thin niche of range that is effective, while all other ranges leave you outclassed. Doesn't matter who you use, your window of opportunity is small against her.

What do you mean by "her moves come first"? Are you suggesting that her moves somehow defy the laws of physics? Or maybe you just attack at disadvantage. And of course she can be faster when you compare her Sword stance to the characters you mentioned. Things look entirely different if you take WP into account, which has the most range for the price of being slow, unsafe and w/o frame advantages. Damage is comparable but definitely not to Asta. Also note that her speed isn't the greatest either even in SW, as characters like X, Amy, Taki, Yoshi or Setsuka can easily outspeed her.

The solution is not to stand there and wait for a move that doesn't push you away, it's to know her frames, her mixup options, her stances and their possibilities and limitations... but yes, it's difficult to grasp this unless you play her yourself.

I agree, it's not a place to talk about these things. If someone is interested in discussing how OP ivy is, I invite you to Ivy SA.

 

[Nofacekill3r]

Lol if my opponents just stood there and waited for a move with no pushback, i would just keep spamming them.

I see a lot of people with only surface level knowledge of Ivy (if that) asking for nerfs. I really don't think it's fair at all.

I really think that Ivy's greatest strength is the fact that people don't take the time to study her. She is probably the most complicated character in the game and you can't just have one strategy to defeat her since she has 3 different stances available to her (who counts SE? :P).

I mean even at high levels of play you have players just guessing what to do because they don't really know what Ivy's options are (or aren't).

Example: Look at how much crap I got away with at DEV last year. I mean holy crap. I mean Thugish Pond, who is probably in the world's top 3 players, tried to attack me after WP 44A. 22K spam all day long. Nobody punished my unsafes aside from 214B. Another thing is that people sometimes think they are in Ivy's mixup range when they really aren't. Example: After SW BB on hit. People don't abuse risk/reward enough, etc. I already posted a freaking long post about why I thought Cervantes had an advantage vs. Ivy, and i really dont feel like typing something that is that long again, let alone for each character. I don't mean to say that every character has an advantage against Ivy, because that simply isn't true, but the simple fact is that MOST characters have options against Ivy that people don't use.

 

[Nofacekill3r]

That's because after all these years people still lack some knowledge about Ivy (but that's not surprising.. How many great Ivy players are out there and how many of them travel?). You would be surprised how many people still don't know that you can JF Ukemi CL236BB to avoid SW 3B+K force block for example. Many of these hated moves are pretty balanced, they have strengths and weaknesses.

@Sephalump, I agree, her SG is one of the best in the game but that's because of a few certain moves (mainly something like SW BB which is clearly broke or WP 6B+K2_8 which seems to be too much for a lot of people) Her force blocks are crap (only 1 is actually "guaranteed" to my knowledge) and can be avoided mostly.

I don't really see why SW BB is so broke, it doesn't carry all the advantages that the average BB carries. In my mind SW 3B is superior... SW BB is slightly faster but SW 3B is better on block, hit, and counter hit.

 

[sephalump]

Doesn't it SC in like 10? And is safe with frame advantage(at all) on hit? Take characters like zasalamel who's BB is unsafe or yun who's BB is -2 on hit, or Raphael's BB. Yes these are low strength characters but they all focus at least a bit on gauge damage and have crappy tools compared to it.

 

[Ring]

What makes SW BB broke imo is the mixture of speed (i15), SG damage (10) and the fact that the second hit retracks to both sides, making this move very difficult to avoid. It does push away on hit, but so do many BBs in this game. Let's face it, this move serves mostly for SGD purpose, 1K and 6B8K are better for interrupting/punishment.

 

[Signia]

To be more specific on my Ivy hate since everyone is doing it:
1. SW 3B is -4 with force block and pushback. Stepping in will just leave you at disadvantage. Thing is, she pushes you out of range of anything she has in SW. You don't want to be close to her anyway.
2. SW BB. Everyone already covered most of why this move is good, but how about the fact you can delay the second hit? Also, single B leaves her arm right near where she'd start the second B, so it takes a little while to see a second hit isn't coming. This is why we see B into CS setups, which is bullshit. But, it's only +2 and it sends you far enough away from her fast SW options.
3. 6B+K2_8 is -24/-8/-8? Damn I thought I knew my shit. Ivy's frame data in the wiki is pretty fucked up though. Where's the rest of Ivy's SW 8WR moves? Wtf is 22B's frames??

Well... that's about it. I don't really hate any character that much, just Apprentice.

Tips:
Paying attention to Ivy's stances goes long way. When she switches stances, adjust your spacing accordingly. Against SW, you don't want to be right in her face, she has fucking safe i13 1K and i14 6B mids (lol@ Ring saying SW isn't fast) You may also want to be able to backstep AA and 22K at all times. Punish 9B it's -17 but has ridiculously short blockstun, be careful. Break A. Punish WS B when she tries to reverse ring you out (-12). Her FC 3B is a +1 low, but don't freak out, it's just +1. It's safe too... just step it. You can definitely outspace her with pretty much anyone, the problem is her movement and free pushback.

Against WP, know that most of her moves suck or are unsafe. Her step is worse and get into your character's good close range spacing. Punish 3A, it's -16 and -6 on hit, don't miss your opportunities. Lol her AA is also -16/-6/-6, just no stun on CH. BB sucks too. 2B is i17 but 0 on hit and CH, don't be scared, for you, +0 is like +2 in this stance. She's like, worse than any other character at interrupting here... her i13 K isn't even positive on CH, and the rest of her options suck. It's like NM, without good highs, or Asta without a bullrush. She outclasses everyone at super long range though, so just don't be there!

Against CL, it doesn't really matter where you are, just don't be in her 1B+KB spacing. Punish 214B as hard as you can. Watch her sword when she uses A+B, don't let her get away with shenanigans. Try to glitch the last hit, IvyFanboy posted something about this a while back, letting go of guard with some characters makes it whiff. 22B guard break... is -1 on block. You have to 8WR in order to sidestep 1B+KB.

Idk why I'm doing this for you guys but it's more of a mental checklist for myself. Now that I'm through, Ivy seems like a bad character, lol. Am I missing anything? I know I am but I might be giving away too much already...

 

[Ring]

lol@ Ring saying SW isn't fast

I never said that. What I meant is that characters with i10-11 A's or something similar are a huge problem for her due to small frame advantages, they are almost immune to her frametraps. Also, 22B is -18. WS B is -13. CL 22_88B is -2~+1 depending on range. Instead of trying to glitch CL A+B,A+K you can always just jump the last hit with 9B/9K

 

[KingAce]

Hey hey slow down, man I guess people really have grudge against Ivy.
I personally like Ivy, because she took awhile for Ivy players to figure out, but once they got her core moves down, she really has become Godlike in her own way.

For me it's all those things, combined with 9B. I think before people started to realize how retarded this move was. I was like what's up with this thing, you can insert it just about anywhere, has some evasive properties, and can stun you.

And no body talks about Ivy's knockdown game, but it's there. You got the stomp, the SG damage, the hell sweep, and the command grabs.

Although you Ivy players are defending her, note that every Ivy player that is serious about her is horrifically strong.

Also for those that aren't aware Ivy has one of the best steps in the game. So if she wants to stay away from you, it's very easy for her.

She doesn't need that SG damage, that's the one thing I would definitely nerf, that way I can at least turtle against her.

 

[Nofacekill3r]

Hey hey slow down, man I guess people really have grudge against Ivy.
I personally like Ivy, because she took awhile for Ivy players to figure out, but once they got her core moves down, she really has become Godlike in her own way.

For me it's all those things, combined with 9B. I think before people started to realize how retarded this move was. I was like what's up with this thing, you can insert it just about anywhere, has some evasive properties, and can stun you.

And no body talks about Ivy's knockdown game, but it's there. You got the stomp, the SG damage, the hell sweep, and the command grabs.

Although you Ivy players are defending her, note that every Ivy player that is serious about her is horrifically strong.

Also for those that aren't aware Ivy has one of the best steps in the game. So if she wants to stay away from you, it's very easy for her.

She doesn't need that SG damage, that's the one thing I would definitely nerf, that way I can at least turtle against her.

Wow, ok.

One of the best steps in the game? It's stance specific, dude.

Stomp doesn't have full tracking when the opponent is grounded, and neither does stuff like SW 3B. Also, little known fact that I've only seen Thugish and Babalook abuse is that 214K doesn't really give her any wakeup advantage on grounded hit. You can get up and step, or interrupt, provided she stomps your groin and not your back.

Saying that every Ivy player that is serious about her is "horrifically strong" really doesn't mean anything for a couple of reasons:

There aren't many SC players right now to begin with, only the elite hardcore are left. If you notice back when the game was popular you would see that there were A LOT of mediocre Ivy players. So let's take a look at these "horrifically strong" Ivy players for one moment, and you will see that they are extremely dedicated. I'm also going to mention players of other characters that have a similar level of dedication and how they also just so happen to be strong players, regardless of character choice.

Malek: How many people can really say they are as dedicated as this guy? He has travelled outside of his country multiple times, donated money to Americans, and attends most of the French tournaments. Let's not forget that this guy actually contributed a lot to the way most Ivys play nowadays. What you guys might see as broken (funny part is that most people don't provide logical analysis of why X or Y move is actually broken) is actually the hard work that the Ivy community poured into a character that was once seen as somewhat lacking compared to the other top tier characters.

Woahhzz: Dude was stylin on a lot of you east coast peeps with his alts. He has strong mindgames, regardless of which character he uses. Let's not forget that his scene is actually active and that there are other strong players on an equal level with him - like Ramon and SU for example. All his success with Ivy means is that she is tournament viable just like a lot of other characters if you put in the time and effort. One thing I noticed about the complainers in this game is that it's not usually the SS tier players doing the complaining.

Scud: Proof that there is a clear distinction between Ivy players - skill level really does make the difference. All Ivy players DO NOT have the same level of success as this guy does.

Now let's look at other successful players:

Thugish Pond: Damn, it's like the players that travel a lot tend to have more success. Kinda like Malek. But hey, Malek plays Ivy so CLEARLY that's the reason why he's a strong player. As for all the Amy complainers: which other Amy player has had anywhere near the level of success that Thugish has had? Do your homework and practice. I watched a couple videos on youtube, had nobody to practice anti-Amy on (honestly I only really played online 99% of the time against Babalook and IMT Dragon) and what do you know, I got a few rounds in. Studying helps.

RTD: Same as Thugish. It's interesting how people call him out on his broke character but he still mops the floor with 99% of the community with whatever character he pleases.

Kura: Hard work and dedication. A somewhat active, hardcore level offline scene to practice with.

Omega: Hard work and dedication. A somewhat active, hardcore level offline scene to practice with.

Belial: You get the picture.

All of the players are freaking dedicated. And they all have a hardcore offline scene to play with. I'm not gonna call out specific regions, but there is a clear distinction between who is hardcore and who isn't. You'll notice that these Ivy players that I mentioned are all part of a hardcore group like I said, and with the exception of Scud, you can't really say that they are on a higher level than their acquaintances - they're actually on a pretty even level with the other people in their groups who have similar levels of dedication. That's not to make mention of the Ivy players who have not enjoyed as much success as other offline players in their region.

So is it unfair to say that maybe these Ivy players who are enjoying success are working harder than a lot of the Ivy complainers? Maybe. But with such a small community, you can actually sample pretty much every offline player and analyze them. I don't really think it's unfair.