Bonus Characters (*)

Jaxel said:
This is why they were banned... to keep things simple... it has nothing to do with balance.
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I see now what the problem is. There's no point in arguing and giving reasons on why the characters should be banned. What people should be debating about are what valid reasons to warrant bans should be.

We need guidelines for banning, otherwise we're gonna have organizers like Jaxel and DFG banning things for petty reasons that have "nothing to do with balance". This is competitive Soul Calibur we're talking about here, try to keep in mind what matters most, BALANCE. It is the only reason to warrant a ban, nothing else.
 
keep things simple? hmm, i don't see how the characters that are in the game, compared to user-created characters, are so hard to differentiate between.

also, i'm going out on a limb in assuming that the star wars characters and algol were not banned on simplicity.
 
Elfriede said:
The only characters who don't have anything to backup their severe limitations is Angol Fear and Ashlotte - moreso Ashlotte. Angol Fear's range is only slightly lower than Mina, AFAIK.
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Please don't talk about things you don't know. I posted on the first page my reasoning behind Angol Fear being different than Mina.
 
Impending_Doom66 said:
Please don't talk about things you don't know. I posted on the first page my reasoning behind Angol Fear being different than Mina.
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I read you. My point don't invalide yours - basically, Angol's game is different than Mina (range issues, spacement, blahblahblah). Simple. And we both agree that banning her is stupid lol

How hard was that?
 
Elfriede said:
I read you. My point don't invalide yours - basically, Angol's game is different than Mina (range issues, spacement, blahblahblah). Simple. And we both agree that banning her is stupid lol

How hard was that?
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You implied her range made her inferior which it doesn't. Banning is stupid though.
 
The longer range alone changes the balance of the characters. THey were added simply as a fun extra for the casual players. If namco really cared about the characters they would have given them unique movelists. I see no reason for them to be included in tournament play and if people like their playing styles they can pick the actual character that corresponds with said style. Just like if someone happens to love their mitsurugi style CAS, come tourney time they have to pick Mitsu. i fail to see the problem with this.
 
OffbeatNinja said:
The longer range alone changes the balance of the characters. THey were added simply as a fun extra for the casual players. If namco really cared about the characters they would have given them unique movelists. I see no reason for them to be included in tournament play and if people like their playing styles they can pick the actual character that corresponds with said style. Just like if someone happens to love their mitsurugi style CAS, come tourney time they have to pick Mitsu. i fail to see the problem with this.
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here's the problem: at what point does the balance actually change? it seems as though that with each "mirrored" character there is a small give or take that goes along with it. have you ever lost a match only because the opponent used a character that i had a slightly longer range than its counter-part? did you even notice?
 
Impending_Doom66 said:
You implied her range made her inferior which it doesn't. Banning is stupid though.
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I didn't implied anything - I only said that Angol's range being inferior to Mina, is a slightly limitation. Which is.

At first sight, to many people who don't look deep to this issue (hence, bigger range = BAN!111!1), Angol having less range than Mina hinders some people from picking her (or liking her either way lol) - while some people like you, see that like a different insight to the gameplay (and you don't like Mina in the first place, but that's another subject and don't really matters.)

Either way - Angol having less range still doesn't make her broken or anything - she's different enought than Mina (in the way which both can be played, even with the same moveset). Fact.
And banning them, the Bonus women, is stupid.

The game doesn't even comes close to imbalance with them allowed.
 
tribaL said:
here's the problem: at what point does the balance actually change? it seems as though that with each "mirrored" character there is a small give or take that goes along with it. have you ever lost a match only because the opponent used a character that i had a slightly longer range than its counter-part? did you even notice?
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range is everything,

give someone a safe move that tracks, but give him/her decent range. Now just to fuck with people, make a bonus character we the exact same movelist, except, make his/her range even longer. Yes I believe that will change the tier list just a bit. And amy's hitbox makes me laugh. She is in no way a small character and heres my reasoning. I`m a siegfried/apprentice player, mainly sieg. Now, I got guaranteed combos off of amy that I dont against every other character i.e. FC A+G 33B, WS B kB....ect, so I doubt Scher can be much worse than that. Now moves like amy's 33B, 66A+B, 2A+B, 4A, 66B ect ect ect will have more range and with that, I`m sure she gets more combos than amy, fuck....that
 
DemonTripp said:
range is everything,

give someone a safe move that tracks, but give him/her decent range. Now just to fuck with people, make a bonus character we the exact same movelist, except, make his/her range even longer. Yes I believe that will change the tier list just a bit. And amy's hitbox makes me laugh. She is in no way a small character and heres my reasoning. I`m a siegfried/apprentice player, mainly sieg. Now, I got guaranteed combos off of amy that I dont against every other character i.e. FC A+G 33B, WS B kB....ect, so I doubt Scher can be much worse than that. Now moves like amy's 33B, 66A+B, 2A+B, 4A, 66B ect ect ect will have more range and with that, I`m sure she gets more combos than amy, fuck....that
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so, essentially, scher deserves a ban because you can't play against her exactly the same way you play against amy?
 
I think if people are a fan of the character, people will play them regardless. i think too much weight has been put into the stock that people will ALWAYS use the best character option available (not everyone likes anime titties). In games previous to this, there have been other mirror image characters with better range; my example- Eddy and Christie from T5:DR (in T5 Eddy was just a selectable costume for christie, with longer range, you figured ppl would complain? they didn't). Christie has shorter range than Eddy with the exact same moves set (save normal throws, which makes nooo difference despite theory fighters 9_9). Since Eddy has superior range, he spaces with uf+4 better, punishes better, baits b+3 set ups better and has a longer range relax mix up. Everyone assumes tourney players make a big deal about it, but as time has shown... the difference between Christie and Eddy are pretty negligible. People play as both, and there has always been a Christie following that plays her over Eddy.

The fact is, no one whines if someone chooses Eddy over Christie, Christie players don't whine that Eddy ON PAPER, eliminates her as a usable character. So just because people ASSUME the worst will happen, I almost guarantee that people using Shezerade and Shura over Amy and Cervy WILL NOT affect most players of those characters, and it will probable inspire said players to become better than people trying to cheeze out their characters with longer range and such.

On paper and in theory, lots of things seem like they are clearly better than option B, but it is the player who chooses the character THEY want, and plays hard with them. I don't think allowing bonus characters will change any outcomes tbh. If someone gimmicks a tourney win in finals with one and we lament NOT banning said character... they woulda just developed ANOTHER gimmick character that IS allowed (Hilde, Kilik) in their place, had bonus not been allowed. That is all about player mentality, it has nothing to do with the actual characters, sometimes players look for what they believe is the cheapest, best and easiest path to victory, that doesn't change with bannings, since those perceived options already exist without the bans.

hope that helps.

cha cha
 
fine...go ahead...unban the bonus characters, I can only say so much

Cha cha- ok now we are getting into tekken in which I will win this arguement since I`m more of a tekken player then SC

Eddy and christie are not and never have been top tier, to even compare them to amy and scher is ridiculous. Eddy only had more range in his legs and that range hardly effected the tier system since there were still characters in the game that were better than him (on paper at least.) Unlike amy Eddy/christie are mix up characters with few safe moves when it comes to their range. He was slower, did more damage, and had better range than christie while of course she was the exact opposite.

Now amy, if not top tier, is damn well close to it and I believe giving her more range would def put her to top tier if not S tier.

now cha cha, how many christie players did you see entering tekken tournaments?....now....name a christie player in tekken 5 that won any majors and slightly big events or how about placed high.....now name eddy players, number that have entered using eddy, and that have won using him or placed high. If you even enter just a few tekken tournaments you would know what I`m talking about.

now lets use a top tier character in tekken and lets give them alittle more range, lets say DJ, kazuya, Lee(though he isnt considered top tier, give him more range and he will be)

range makes a difference
 
I am all for coming up with guidelines for banning...I tire of these pointless discussions that drag on to no end.

But first

As a community we lack organization, regardless of whatever rules we might come up with, here in North America every regional tournament Director will do as he/she feels, or as his constituents feel. So in the end it doesn't seem to really matter what rules we step up, unless we're speaking strictly at a National level.

Everybody remembers when Omega Mitsu came here from DR, and VC was allowed at Nationals...even though it was banned in DR...Aside from the post GI one of course.

The most important question is..."What is best forthe community?"
 
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