Character Matchup Tier Project

[Something-Unique]

I would put Kilik v. Yoshi at 5/5 at least. If used correctly, stomp and 9A+B can nullify Kilik's range and many of his major tools. Both have to take some risks in this match-up.

I'll have to test some new stuff I've developed against Ceirnian more to give my opinion on Hilde v. Yoshi. 7/3 seems a bit much, but I'm not ready to say 6/4. Yoshi has some answers that may make this matchup slightly less of a beating.

Look below in regards to Hilde but as far as Kilik vs. Yoshimitsu goes i'm more than open to see another 5/5 matchup.

far far far too many 7/3s there

Actually no there isn't.

Hilde is not like everyone else in the game as she has a ridiculous amount of room for being overpowered compared to everyone else which I will explain further down in this post.

I'm just a little curious as to why Hilde vs Sophie is rated 5/5?

Hilde doesn't really have anything that unsafe, and step-wise Sophie is fairly weak to one side. Sophie doesn't have any really scary lows either, so she's going to be relying on throw mix ups for the most part but her command throw is 66A+G, so Hilde gets to keep her doom combo charge for the most part. Also, at mid-long range, which is where Hilde will want to be for this match up, all of Sophie's best moves tend to be horizontals, which is just asking for step into doom combo. I'll concede that Sophie might give Hilde some trouble at close range, but enough to make it 5/5? I'm not sure.

All that aside, I'll say right off the bat that I haven't really played versus a great Sophie with Hilde so if I'm wrong, well, yeah, I'm wrong.

Actually you are right as that was a typo since I posted it while I was on campus. That's why I put revision needed.

This matchup is actually 6/4 in Hilde's favor.

Notes: Kilik

The method I used for Kilik was to start everything from 5/5 and move from there because although Kilik is high on the tier list his advantages or disadvantages are always small never extreme like one or two of his matchups like Kilik vs. Maxi which is so damn messed up for Maxi or vs. Taki which is actually more like 6.5/3.5 but since the scale doesn't allowed that I rounded it up because it is definitely greater than a 6/4.

So in the end he is a strong balanced top tier character that has a 6/4 advantages on almost everyone with a two 7/3 so I start from 5/5 and work around.

Notes: Hilde

There is absolutely no sugar coating Hilde's ridiculous advantage. She is S+ tier at the top by herself for a reason. So the method I used for her was to start from 8/2 which almost no one in this game should have if any at all. Then I took away points for how difficult per character it is to lay down her advantages.

The fact of the matter is Hilde's advantages are so huge that it is definitely above 6/4's. In contradiction to what I said above stages like the labirynth and the raft would easily place her one point higher from 7/3 to an 8/2 and the caged stage and the inclosed stage would place her at a 6.5/3.5 to start at.

Let's use Hilde vs. Sophie as a perfect example. Sophie is one of those characters who will make you question what to do for fear of hard whiff and block punishment. When she does execute; the damage stacks up with minimal effort. However because she has no mixup there is no reason to really fear her from an offensive standpoint in regards to a rushdown from Sophie. Though the fact that she has a solid enough SG damage option to wear the person down makes them have no choice but to open up. This allows her to bait for the whiff punish.

Now its the same thing with Hilde except that Hilde has a few poking lows that can be annoying somewhat though not so much. Here goes the main point. Outside of the Caged stage and that enclosed circle stage
the value in difference between her and everyone else is 1 chance vs. 3-4 chances.

Hilde is pretty much a walking 1-hit kill monster because of her ringout ability. So let's say I whiff as the Hilde player and Sophie capatilizes with 236236B:4 that's like 80-Damage I think or the less consistent option 236236B, 236236B:4 that's 120-130 something damage I think. It doesn't really affect a Hilde player becuase all it takes is 1-hit more often than not ex. C3B from a whiff, FC C2B off of duck whiff or regular whiff, or C2BB from whiff, or her best option C3A off of anything with absolutely no fear of fucking this move up.

The difference is just to great. The character's that tend to give her problems are those that interfere with her combos.

Example: Voldo's BT stance negates the value of everything except C3A and making her pathetic in this matchup because without these options her damage is pathetic. Don't let Hilde players fool you guys into thinking their is reason to fear her outside of the aboved moves. Their is absolutely no reason to.

Yoda vs. Hilde is ridiculous. This matchup is so bad that I would recommend for those who wanted to have a way to counter Hilde at tournaments he is your best option. Keep him in your pocket. Oofmatic's Yoda showed me how horrible this matchup is. Its not that hard to figure out that this is a bad matchup if you play Hilde but its highlighted her because everyone knows the genius of Oofmatic by now with his ability to counter pick accordingly. Her charges go out the window here as they don't work which is the reason she is so strong, and therefore she's left with basic tools which again are so pathetic in the damage department that without her charges she would be instant bottom tier. The main reason Yoda can fight with some hope of winning is because he cannot be thrown and he can throw you. Most good players will find themselves throwing Hilde more than average and it only makes the situation worse for her and abusable because she can't throw back. In fact I remember playing Oof's Yoda and having to sidestep Yoda's throws because he was abusing it so much which is smart. It's actually really annoying. Her SG damage isn't the best on numbers or practicality and the fact that Yoda has half a SG to abuse with other characters doesn't apply here.

My post is to damn long and becuase of it I will wait for somebody else to repond and then continue. lol.

 

[CNP]

I wonder if Bamco knew what they were doing when they made the worst character in the game a counter-pick for the best character in the game. Funny.

 

[HajimeOwari]

Chai Xianghua matchups:
Yoshi: 6/4
Ask me for details if you wanna :)

I don't see X having any inherit advantages against Yoshi, nor Yoshi having any major advantages against X. Why 6/4? So far I see this match as 5/5 until some serious evidence pushes it in one character's direction.

 

[Something-Unique]

Continuing Hilde:

Hilde vs. Algol: This is either a 5.5/4.5 or rounded to 6/4 because Hilde's universal advantages apply here but his bubbles can alot of times interrupt her damn combos when she lands them. It's somewhat of a gamble as far as the bubble strat goes as luck plays a part if one will randomly fuck up her strings. I think Algol can also do a better job than almost anyone at turtling Hilde effectively and doing chip damage with options like his 1A.

Hilde vs. Amy: This match is a 6/4 as well but Amy's rushdown game is so damn threatening its not even funny. The obvious difference here though is that because Hilde needs 1 good shot most of the time and Amy's damage output is somewhat low. Patience is key here since Amy can do whatever she wants. In fact the one thing the Hilde player should be paying attention to is positioning. Often times Amy's aggressiveness will possibly place you right where u want to be to go for the ringout. So basically Amy does the usual by controlling the match for the most part but in the end the low damage output is at a disadvantage for a ringout setup.

Hilde vs. Apprentice: This match is a 7/3 because their is nothing the Apprentice can do to take away anything from Hilde's advantages. A good Hilde player will constantly be playing safe and even on whiff Apprentice cannot make the Hilde player squirm like Sets or Kilik can.

Hilde vs. Astaroth: I don't think I need to explain this one.

Hilde vs. Cass: Similiar to the Apprentice

Hilde vs. Cervantes: Similiar to the Apprentice

Hilde vs. Ivy: This needs greater review as alot of people are underestimating Ivy. She controls space really well and since Hilde's punish game is weak outside of -20-21-frames moves like here (forgot notation) where she uses her whip really fast and it stuns plus stops step can be an abusable problem vs. Hilde. Ivy just controls space really well and has the stances to use the strings needed per situation. Her damaging throws also help here. 6/4 tentative in favor of Hilde.

Hilde vs. Kilik: This match is 6/4 because Kilik is almost completely linear that its hard to take chances on anything without the fear of getting stepped and beatdown. Kilik can't be aggressive here as other fast characters can be to apply pressure on Hilde because he doesn't have the tools to do so. So in the end a turtle style Kilik would be the best option for this matchup but even things like Asura is still heavy on the risk and reward side. Step A+B works wonders on Hilde like no one else but its still really risky. To put it in simple terms everything is extremely risky in this matchup. Kilik will usually have to use tracking moves like 2A, 1_3 A+B which isn't really punishable by Hilde except by WS K. Though because of her inability to punish options like 33_99 A, 1B, 4A may come in handy more than anyone else and can wear down her SG.
In fact I would argue that the way to go would be to wear down her SG and chipp low with tracking lows and play turtle style and look for a step A+B or Asura counter every now and again. What also helps here is that C3A is the problem and Kiliks strongest throw is on the A+G side so doing that on purpose making the Hilde player conditioned to escape A+G throws can reset that counter for you leaving them with only B charges because C1A and C2AA are not an issue and then maybe room can open up for semi pressure baiting B' charges (something to think about).

I will continue the rest at another time.

 

[wing_zero]

^ I definitely feel the same way about this matchup; the fact that she can't punish 1/3A+B properly is a big advantage for Kilik and makes his overall mixup game stronger against her.

However, I have to disagree with Hilde vs. Cass being 7/3 for Hilde. Cass' 2B+K is an effective tool against Hilde and her throw game is more than enough to keep the Hilde player on his/her toes, imo.

I'd like to see the Yoshi/Kilik matchup explained in depth. I think it's 5/5 because while Kilik punishes Yoshi pretty hard, Yoshi can shut down Kilik's zoning game easily. Give me MOAR

 

[Tiamat]

"Siegfried Schtauffen"
Amy: 6|4*
[/B]

KDZ: Seems like an over-abundance of 6-4 advantages for sieg. Shouldn't some of those be 5-5? I'd expect a character like Sieg to have quite a few 5-5 matchups and that doesn't look like enough. In particular I'd really like to hear your thoughts on Sieg vs Amy because I don't see why Sieg would have advantage. Amy is a better character and she can punish Sieg's WR on block with 6BB. What does Sieg have going for him here? strong TC move to prevent 6BB spam with his 3 I suppose, but anything else? I could understand a 5-5 but Sieg advantage raises a red flag, so please explain.

I'm gonna try to get another Sieg for second opinions on your matchups, as there are some other very good Siegs I'd like to consult.

You and Something Unique both say Sieg loses to Kilik 4-6 and it sounds right to me so that's going up later

Chai Xianghua matchups:
Algol: 6/4?*
Amy: 5/5
Asta: 5/5
Cass: 6/4
Cerv: 5/5*
Mina: 6/4
Mitsu: 5/5
Raph: 6/4
Rock: 6/4
Sieg: 5/5 or 4/6.. can't make up my mind either*
Soph: 4/6*
Talim: 6/4
Yun: 6/4

I'm gonna go ahead and put all the ones I quoted without asterisks in the chart. The ones with asterisks raise questions for me.

X vs sieg it's same thing as KDZ but other way around. Once again, X is a better character than Sieg, and shes fast enough to punish with WR on block too. What could possibly give Sieg the advantage here?

Algol and Cervy matchup I disagree with. X does very well vs algol but it is hard to say who has the edge here if either. X has the speed and mixup advantage at a certain range but only at that range. Otherwise Algol has better pokes. The matchup seems to force both players to turtle up and poke each other to deal. As for Cervy vs X, Millionz and Hates have both said it's in X's favor so I'm gonna keep it at 6-4 X's advantage for now but its obviously still open to debate. Is there anything in particular going for Cervy in this matchup? I know you and ShenChan are great players, so I'm sure there's a good reason for your rank.

why is X disadvantage on sophie?

Edit: First post updated with X matchups.

 

[Saitoh]

Damn Tiamat, totally forgot to comment your anti-asta strat with NM ! sorry :p
In fact it's exactly what you need to do to have a chance in this match up, and what Keev do, but a blocked WS B is still a very bad situation for NM imo, very imbalanced mix up if you ask me :) And if you stay with the safe WS K, you badly lost in damage battle.
It's debatable, but i still see this one at 7 - 3 for Astaroth. :)

As for KDZ, i'm interested about Sieg vs Asta, why 6-4 for Sieg ? Pretty even match up imo :)

 

[HajimeOwari]

I'd like to see the Yoshi/Kilik matchup explained in depth. I think it's 5/5 because while Kilik punishes Yoshi pretty hard, Yoshi can shut down Kilik's zoning game easily. Give me MOAR

That basically sums up the match up, doesn't it? I suppose we could discuss how Yoshi's 214A can shutdown some of Kilik's strings. iMCF lets Yoshi apply pressure once inside. 9K beats Asura on anticipation. Asura counters iMCF by jumping it. That's quite a bit of case specific theory, though.

 

[Law_Hack_Ninja]

I say its in siggy fav, he has great mix ups, sg damage and good stun game while asty has only throws and sg damage however he is predictable. If the siggy player mixes up enough he could put asty in all types of bad situations.........

 

[Tiamat]

saitoh:
I'm still gonna keep the Asta vs NM at 6-4 but I appreciate your input. I will change later if I actually get to play a good astaroth here and get badly stomped haha. I do agree with you that Asta has advantage, we only disagree on how much advantage. The list is still in the beginning stages and I think it's "safer" to have 6-4s than 7-3s when in doubt. We can work those things out later.

I agree with you about Sieg vs Asta though. Should be 5-5 I think.

something_unique:
Nightmare is at a 6-4 advantage vs Kilik on the list. I had been saying it was 5-5 until rather recently but eventually changed my mind. If you look at videos of this matchup being played, it becomes apparent that Nightmare usually wins. Tiamat vs WINBACK, Shen Rii vs Shen Ou, Keev vs Hayate, generally speaking you'll see Nightmare win out. Now lets look at the matchup objectively and see why this seems to be the case.

One of best things Kilik has is Asura. How useful it is varies according to the matchup, often a decisive factor.
Let me make clear that JUST because you basically don't have to worry about asura with nightmare is only a negation of overpowered kilik ability and does NOT give you an inherent advantage, as there are other factors. Nightmare, like Astaroth, has good mid attacks that are immune to Asura, that are so good that he'd be doing them anyway even if not for the matchup in particular. 11K, WR K, WR B are all immune to asura and on air hit will do some ok damage into nightmare's exceptional okizeme. In addition, 11K and WR B are faster than Kilik's WR B and will beat it out if in range. Kilik is also not very strong at block punishing some powerful NM moves such as 33B and WR B. In addition, Nightmare's throws have big range and good damage, while setting up for his good okizeme. This allows nightmare to apply strong mid/throw mixups with a better risk vs reward ratio than normal, due to kilik's inability to get good guaranteed punishes. Nightmare is generally going to be doing more damage per hit and has a better RO ability as well. His whiff punishing in particular is far stronger than Kilik's is. Kilik himself does good damage and has great mixup, but his lack of fast hitting TC moves, and comparatively lower damage/RO ability makes this a disadvantage matchup for him.

 

[Runis]

Just on that X vs Algol matchup, AFAIK, X has tools to get around bubble shield unless I'm mistaken, and once you're through the shield, the match up pretty much falls to who has the advantage close up, since Algol's SS is so shockingly bad. In X's case, I'd say she is better up close in Algol's face than he is, and even his Godly Back step can be dealt with.


Now As for S-U's comments about Hilde.
Hilde vs Voldo is a broken match severely in Hilde's favor. Until Voldo actually GETS into BS, the matchup is roughly 8/2 or even so bad as to get to 9/1. Reason? Voldo has no anti-step against Hilde until he gets into BS. This basically means that Hilde can SS Punish everything on reaction to any movement. Voldo does not have any stance transition outside of attack moves so he can't just B+K and get into BS. This means that Hilde can basically rip him apart until he finally gets into BS. Once he gets into BS, the match is still about 6/4 in Hilde's favor. BS simply means that C3B 44K doesn't doom combo. B+K combo will still work, and FC C3AKB 44K Doom now works.
This voldo stuff isn't from my own experience, but is actually from when I was in NorCal, watching Cedric lapping up Manta's tears because he had no anti-step.

 

[Tiamat]

Just on that X vs Algol matchup, AFAIK, X has tools to get around bubble shield unless I'm mistaken, and once you're through the shield, the match up pretty much falls to who has the advantage close up, since Algol's SS is so shockingly bad. In X's case, I'd say she is better up close in Algol's face than he is, and even his Godly Back step can be dealt with.

The tricky thing is that the "specific range" where X beats him is NOT point blank range (lets call this range 1) as you'd expect. If Algol is in throw range he is basically Astaroth with a fast 2A and way better power mids. Does that sound like something you can take lightly? The range were X beats Algol is right outside throw range, about X's 1A range (call this range 2). However, at this range she won't be able to pressure very well after hitting him because of his backstep. Once Algol is outside of that range (range 3) he has advantage. Most of the match will be at ranges 2 and 3. Hope that makes some sense.

 

[Something-Unique]

Wing-Zero:

Yeah 1_3 A+B really opens up against Hilde. Its extra helpful that even on escape you get the benefit of dictating which charge to reset (Go for the A primarily). She can't punish and it tracks.

HajimeOwari:

I would like to see the Yoshi vs. Kilik match in great detail as well because I can kind of see your points as valid. I think back playing Ramon's Yoshi and never feeling completely in control but I never thought of it as difficult.

Tiamat:

Nightmare vs. Kilik is fairly sketchy. Hard to actually point out specifically what the problems are from my side. I can kind of see this 6/4 as well but can't really confirm it yet. When I get a chance to actually sit down since i'm on campus once again I can debate this.

Runis:

Wow just wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is the most ridiculous response in the history of omg! By the way B+K from BS is ridiculous inconsistent. Also it really isn't that difficult as you make it seem to get into BS with Voldo.
Seriously I just can't stop laughing at your post so its hard for me to address anything.

 

[Millionz]

Now As for S-U's comments about Hilde.
Hilde vs Voldo is a broken match severely in Hilde's favor. Until Voldo actually GETS into BS, the matchup is roughly 8/2 or even so bad as to get to 9/1. Reason? Voldo has no anti-step against Hilde until he gets into BS. This basically means that Hilde can SS Punish everything on reaction to any movement.

I think I am going to try and be as polite as possible when saying this.

Do you understand what you just said?

 

[Runis]

So S-U, Are you suggesting that even though Voldo has no step punishment until he gets into Blind Stance, and that to get into blind stance he has to actually perform an attack of some sort, He can still do well against Hilde? Any move He does to try get into BS can be stepped and punished. It doesn't even have to be C3B or C3A, Hilde can do other things and just simply knock him OUT of BS.

Millionz, Yeah I meant to say any "offensive" motion. Meaning attacks.

 

[Something-Unique]

So S-U, Are you suggesting that even though Voldo has no step punishment until he gets into Blind Stance, and that to get into blind stance he has to actually perform an attack of some sort, He can still do well against Hilde? Any move He does to try get into BS can be stepped and punished. It doesn't even have to be C3B or C3A, Hilde can do other things and just simply knock him OUT of BS.

Millionz, Yeah I meant to say any "offensive" motion. Meaning attacks.

Your posts are just completely irrational and subjective with no weight. The idea is to be objective in your responses.

That is all.

 

[Runis]

S-U, you brought up that Voldo in BS basically rapes Hilde. I'm pointing out that outside of BS, Hilde's SIDE STEP, a basic and relatively easy thing to do, will Rape Voldo since he has no answers outside of Blind Stance. Who gives a shit if Hilde does pathetic damage outside of charges, if you can't touch her, she will chip you to death with those pathetic moves.

Irrational? So you're saying that, there's no logic to my argument?
"If Voldo currently =! BS, Then SS will beat very option he has."

Subjective? I'm saying shit based on personal feelings?
This is based on watching Cedric vs Manta. Manta was the one who was complaining that Voldo had no answer to SS.

No weight? So this argument doesn't matter?
If Voldo can't get into BS, which a Side Stepping Hilde will make it very difficult for him to do, He will have an insanely hard match on his hands. How is that not relevant to his match up?

 

[Jimbossa]

"If Voldo currently =! BS, Then SS will beat very option he has."

"Voldo can't get into BS"

You can´t prevent Voldo from getting into BS. V may have problems with killing SS, but proper spacing and a well placed 4A will do. Also, you forgot V can get into BS by stance shifting.

You gotta let go this whole Hildes-SS-eats-V´s-every-move-for-breakfast-notion. Seeing as Hilde is not the only character with SS and we don´t see V getting his ass kicked all day it does seem a little off now, does it.

This is BS.

 

[Runis]

Unless I'm mistaken, but if Voldo gets hit in BS, he goes out of BS does he not? Somehow I don't see Voldo Spacing better than Hilde can.
My opinion isn't that V has no SS punish against others, it's that Hilde's SS beats what little punishment he has.
Is 4A safe on whiff? How safe/unsafe. You're right that Hilde can't permanently stop him getting into BS, but she can make it Harder for him to do so.

 

[docvizzo]

Voldo has no anti-step against Hilde until he gets into BS. This basically means that Hilde can SS Punish everything on reaction to any movement.