0VincentRayne0
Faith
one of the blonde girls is a wrestler though.
Dead or Alive 5 Ultimate
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KostasGR
[14] Master
BT_Johnny
[10] Knight
Bass: . . . Tina!!!1!!11!eleven
DrakeAldan
Follow the rules!
... I thought the i was short for "impact". as in, "this is the first active frame for the move".
Does it mean something else in DOA land?
I suppose I shouldn't get bothered too much, I might have to jump through some hoops to understand the frame data, but at least it is there in the first place.
Meeting at a bar and then beating it up on the rooftop.
Yes, that sounds accurate.
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Then I misunderstood. DOA players started using the i# terminology after they came back from Soul Calibur IV but they were using it for the initial frames as the community would just say 9 frames for a 9 frame attack which had its first hit frame on the 10th frame.
Either way, the game plays like any other. The hit frame has to hit the hurt box before the number of frame advantage reaches 0.
Age_of_Truth
[12] Conqueror
Why not? This argument is used over and over but no-one ever suggests a good reason for it. Stuns happen all the time in this game, off almost every attack. There is no reason why, having got a hit in slightly faster this time, you should be able to proceed to do a huge damage combo. It's DOA, not SC, not SF, not VF, this is the DOA system. If you don't like it play a different game. There is no reason that this mkaes the game worse than the others. It's different. Do you relaly not understand?
Oh my god. You really are unable to grasp what I'm saying aren't you. OF COURSE you should do the same move over and over if your opponent can't deal with it. My point was, in the context of SCIV bullrush or SF fireball, it's a good thing. But it's NOT a good thing if one move is so good and so rewarding that the best thing to do is just keep using it until it hits, and then do a big combo. This is 100% the dev's fault.
I can't believe your telling me that I need to adapt. I have entered 8 SCV tournaments so far and won 6 of them, including the European Impact finals. What the hell. Try using your brain and not just repeating the same old tired crap over and over. And try actually understanding what I'm saying rather than just grasping at the first easy answer that pops into your head.
Yes and that's fine, because a fireball doesn't lead into a giant combo. It's part of the zongin game and leads to really interesting and fun match-ups and strategies. WHICH IS WHAT I ALREADY SAID. WHY ARE YOU MAKING MY OWN POINTS BACK AT ME?
Not everything should be a best option. SOme options should be better than others of course. Otherwise the game would be boring. I already said this. Some options should be better at certain ranges, or in certain situations. And sometimes even a character might have an option that is so good that the opponents need to devise particular strategies to deal with it. What is not good is when one option is so good that it dwarfs all other options. You've seen the YouTube DIVEKICK video right? If one option is so good that the best players use this option repeatedly because even at the highest level it's the best thing to do, then you've screwed up your game. Right? This is so obvious I can't believe I need to state it. AGAIN.
This is incredibly stupid. Why do you play fighting games competitively? Did you wake up one day and think to yourself "I want to be a competitive fighting gamer"? Or did you play a game that you loved so much that you started to get really serious about it, to want to explore and improve and better yourself? We weer all casual gamers once. And we played some games to death because of how good they were. A hardcore community emerges from the obsessional play from people who play a game to death because they can't get enough of it. And these people aren't pros or hardcore gamers until they've gone a lot further and actually reached a high level, which happens WAY AFTER just deciding to give it a shot.
The casual gamer is the one who picks the game up and keeps playing it because he enjoys it, because it's a good game. Some of those gamers eventually become pro gamers. And once you get tournament level, yes you need to tweak the game to make it still enjoyable. But not by simply making it like every other game out there.
Age_of_Truth
[12] Conqueror
In SC terminology, an i11 attack hits on the 11th frame, i.e. it has 10 startup frames, and the 11th frame is the first active frame. But perhaps in DOA it is not like this. I don't know what the standard conventions are for DOA.
However, this does lead me to a rather shocking conclusion... do I take it that neither you or Dr. Dogg are aware that in DOA you can block after recovery one frame before you can do anything else? Including attack, move or crouch? I have to be honest, if you guys are suggesting changes for a game and you don't even understand the basic game system, that's kind of inexcusable. It's ridiculous.
DrDogg
[09] Warrior
I'm aware of this, which is why I'm calling for the change. I also know that it's a system mechanic that caused the second frame of delay so that only i10 was guaranteed. I think it should be conveyed in the displayed frame data so it doesn't confuse players from other fighters. Frame data is frame data, you shouldn't have to read it differently just because it's DOA.
It'll be explained in the strategy guide, and I already conveyed that this is a minor issue. I just think it may confuse anyone who isn't on FSD or opts to pass on the strategy guide.
For clarification, I helped figure out the forced tech trap in DOA4, which only works because you can block before you can do anything else.
At first, it seemed like you were curious and asking questions to better understand DOA5 and DOA in general. Now you're copping an attitude and acting like it's impossible for anyone to have a correct opinion aside from yourself.
Four people have chimed in to say that you're incorrect or they disagree with you. Not a single one of them was rude or demeaning, but you're starting to show signs of both.
You honestly don't sound like a high-level player at all with the way that you don't want anything guaranteed from stuns. I'm sure you are one, given the fact that you felt the need to point out your tournament record and the fact that you assisted with the SC5 guide... but pointing out that stuff doesn't really change your knowledge of the conversation. I've worked on significantly more guides than you have. I've probably attended significantly more tournaments than you have as well (not bragging, just assuming I've been playing competitively longer than you since I'm kind of old in a competitive gaming sense).
None of that means anything. We both understand high-level mechanics and frame data. You simply want something different out of DOA5 than I do. It's okay to disagree on what would make DOA5 a competitive fighter. However, keep in mind the fact that DOA has never had a strong competitive scene and it's played the way you want it to play for over a decade.
My goal, and the goal of many people on FSD, is to see DOA5 in a lot of major tournaments and have a scene equal to at least what MK9 is sporting. Every DOA from DOA2 to DOA4.1 (with the possible exception of DOA3.1) has already proven that something needs to change to appeal to a larger group of competitive players. You seem to want things to stay the same, which will result in a lackluster tournament scene. MK changed and is now far more accepted by competitive players. SC5 introduced big changes that were controversial at first, but have given it a better tournament life than SC3 and SC4.
If you're okay with keeping DOA the same, more power to you. But don't go off on us because we want to see DOA5 at majors.
FightClubHuBBs
[09] Warrior
Age_of_Truth
[12] Conqueror
Well ok first off you're right about my attitude. I am sounding off in exactly the way I wanted to avoid doing. So I'm sorry about that. I need to try to relax. RL is getting me down but it's no excuse to bring it into the forums.
But I do want to see DOA at majors, I desperately want it. I have been saying for ages that I want to play DOA as competitively as possible. I absolutely loved DOA3, and got to play DOAU on Xbox Live, which was my first taste of any kind of competitive play in fighting games, which I wanted to do since I was a kid. And I am pretty old now, so it was a long wait.
The thing is, the changes being proposed seem to me like it won't be DOA at majors. In fact, the game as I see it is just bad. That's what I'm trying to say. It won't be at majors or anything.
The CB is conceptually no different to a launcher, in DOA terms. It is an attack that ends the mind game in a stun combo, allowing guaranteed damage. The key difference is that a launcher puts the opponent in the air, so the attacker now has to get in as powerful a combo as possible before the opponent lands. Different launchers will lead to better damage, so the defender will try to defend (counter) against the most powerful launcher if possible.
The key difference with a CB is that the guaranteed damage can be initiated fom the ground, with a MASSIVE frame advantage. This allows enormous combos to be done, just of the back of a wrong guess in a stun. It's going to be EXTREMELY REPETITIVE.
The argument that it can happen from a CH jab doesn't hold water. CH happen all the time in DOA. Can you imagine if a player at any kind of disadvantage was too scared to perform any kind of attack, because the stun from CH could lead to a huge CB combo? It would make it dull as hell. DOA is fast paced. So many attacks stun on CH, that's the nature of the game. And the stun is a totally different situation in DOA thatn in other fighting games. Using CH and stun properties from other fighting games to make points about DOA just doesn't make any sense.
By the way, I felt the need to point out that I did the SCV guide because you were suggesting I did not understand frame data. And I pointed out my tournament experience because the d3v guy was quoting Sirlin at me. I would prefer people think for themselves, but when I get these kinds of things thrown at me, the only way to respond is with facts because some people find it very hard to think logically and theoretically. They need facts.
But I do want to see DOA at majors, I desperately want it. I have been saying for ages that I want to play DOA as competitively as possible. I absolutely loved DOA3, and got to play DOAU on Xbox Live, which was my first taste of any kind of competitive play in fighting games, which I wanted to do since I was a kid. And I am pretty old now, so it was a long wait.
The thing is, the changes being proposed seem to me like it won't be DOA at majors. In fact, the game as I see it is just bad. That's what I'm trying to say. It won't be at majors or anything.
The CB is conceptually no different to a launcher, in DOA terms. It is an attack that ends the mind game in a stun combo, allowing guaranteed damage. The key difference is that a launcher puts the opponent in the air, so the attacker now has to get in as powerful a combo as possible before the opponent lands. Different launchers will lead to better damage, so the defender will try to defend (counter) against the most powerful launcher if possible.
The key difference with a CB is that the guaranteed damage can be initiated fom the ground, with a MASSIVE frame advantage. This allows enormous combos to be done, just of the back of a wrong guess in a stun. It's going to be EXTREMELY REPETITIVE.
The argument that it can happen from a CH jab doesn't hold water. CH happen all the time in DOA. Can you imagine if a player at any kind of disadvantage was too scared to perform any kind of attack, because the stun from CH could lead to a huge CB combo? It would make it dull as hell. DOA is fast paced. So many attacks stun on CH, that's the nature of the game. And the stun is a totally different situation in DOA thatn in other fighting games. Using CH and stun properties from other fighting games to make points about DOA just doesn't make any sense.
By the way, I felt the need to point out that I did the SCV guide because you were suggesting I did not understand frame data. And I pointed out my tournament experience because the d3v guy was quoting Sirlin at me. I would prefer people think for themselves, but when I get these kinds of things thrown at me, the only way to respond is with facts because some people find it very hard to think logically and theoretically. They need facts.
I don't understand how you could write the above if you understand the DOA system. Any pro who understands the system will understand the numbers in the training mode. Anyone who doesn't can go to FSD or other places to find out. The forced tech trap find doesn't really demonstrate that you understood the system. But your above quote does suggest that you don't understand it.
Rikuto
[10] Knight
Age... the game you are talking about, with tons of stuns on CH? Where everything has multiple chances of being guessed out of? That's not DOA 1-3. That's DOA 4. The black sheep of the series and what took the best chance the game had of striking a competitive scene, and burying it.
It's taken a decade for the game to try to remember its roots, but what you are talking about is literally everything that went wrong with DOA 4 and made people abandon ship after DOA2U helped get the ball rolling again. Stuns on every CH and multiple chances to escape? No, that's not what DOA is about.... thats what DOA 4 is about, and what a horrifying thing that it's the only part of the game you still remember. That's not at all what DOA is all about... if it was, DOA 4 wouldn't have been a massive failure compared to the rest of the series.
I implore you to go back to some of the older games and play them for a few hours, then throw DOA 4 in and see just how bad that game actually is.
It's taken a decade for the game to try to remember its roots, but what you are talking about is literally everything that went wrong with DOA 4 and made people abandon ship after DOA2U helped get the ball rolling again. Stuns on every CH and multiple chances to escape? No, that's not what DOA is about.... thats what DOA 4 is about, and what a horrifying thing that it's the only part of the game you still remember. That's not at all what DOA is all about... if it was, DOA 4 wouldn't have been a massive failure compared to the rest of the series.
I implore you to go back to some of the older games and play them for a few hours, then throw DOA 4 in and see just how bad that game actually is.
d3v
[10] Knight
Because it is worse than the others. Even other DOA players have stated that the system gets really frustrating. Having to continue to guess after having played and won in the neutral game gets frustrating. The risk-reward balance is skewed towards defense which is dumb, because more often than not, in a combo situation, it's the attacking player who did more work. This is why you have top players like Rikuto actually calling for the removal of holds out of stun.
Yet the exact thing happened to MvC2 and that game is considered one of the best competitive games in history. If the system is deep enough (or allows for enough exploiting) then good options can continue to be developed.
You're missing the point of fireballs completely if you're just thinking in terms of damage. Fireballs control so much space that they can lock an opponent down and totally control a match because doing the opposite was even worse. Jump over Ryu's fireball into a full bore Shoryu in SFII did as much damage as an average combo does these days. Even nowadays, do the same thing and you're eating a Shoryu + FADC + Ultra. Fireball spam is dominant not just because of damage, but because of space control. It takes control away from your opponent.
Off course, if you want to talk about damage, there's Cable's AHVB in MvC2 where he could combo into it and kill a character with 5 meters.
There is nothing wrong with having a "best" option. In fact, most of us tend to see having an option like that, especially if its something unintended, to be a good thing, since it implies that the engine allows for a degree of freedom for us to exploit.
What should be the case though is that every character should have really strong best options. That's where the mindgames and the strategy comes from, trying to defeat your opponents strengths and use/abuse your own.
Now if you're worried about the risk involved, historically having high risk has never stopped offense. It just means that both players play smarter. The FGC is in general, very much into gambling. High stakes simply leads to more hype.
I like winning. I like the competition and fighting games are something that I enjoy winning at. If I can find an easier way to win than the next guy, then good for me.
Once again, you're acting like every other ignorant player hiding behind a veil of "uniqueness." Uniqueness doesn't matter if the game doesn't stand up to tournament play and guess what, for the most part DOA hasn't thanks to some glaring issues with that which makes it unique. The way DOA4 emphasized holding out of stun just made the game stupid. I mean, why attack when the best strategy is to get hit and then counter.
At the same time, look at other games that allow to to break out of a combo. For the most part, these combo breaking mechanics are subject to strict limits. They're either tied to meter or have some penalty applied to them. The only other game I can recall that had a free combo breaker was KI and, despite the nostalgia behind it, we all know that KI was never a tournament worthy game. With DOA5's implementation, the system is now closer to counter exchanges in the MvC3 series. Instead of being able to get out for free, you're limited to certain points in a combo. At the same time, there's the risk involved if you guess wrong - that is eating big damage (in UMvC, you get TAC infinited to death, in DOA5 you eat big damage, same deal).
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Ghengis_John
[13] Hero
I'd like to thank whoever deleted that pointless troll post.
MGirard
[09] Warrior
Your Premium sexy costumes and you can vote for one other DoA girl to get one if you can read Japanese that is
http://www.gamecity.ne.jp/doa5/vote.html
http://www.gamecity.ne.jp/doa5/vote.html
DrDogg
[09] Warrior
Why do you think DOA4 was never at any majors aside from the one lackluster showing at Evo? If we got the same game, what makes you think it would suddenly show up at majors?
Also, you never responded as to what you think is wrong with DOA4 so we can have a better understanding of what you're looking for in a DOA game.
How does a CB allow for a massive combo when a launcher does not? If you launch on the 3rd or 4th attack, you're going to get a good launch height with pretty much the same juggle. Watch any of Master's videos from the E3 tournament. He almost always got the same juggle and he never used a CB.
Yes, with a CB the combo starts on the ground, but your next hit is going to be a launcher. The only thing the CB is doing is giving you one extra hit before the juggle.
It doesn't just lead to a huge CB combo. You'll have 1-3 chances to escape AFTER the CH. It seems to me like you don't want anything guaranteed at all.
If you're at +12 in SC5 you can connect a 12-frame attack right? That's not the case in DOA5, so when a SC player sees +12 in training mode, they're going to think something is wrong because they'll only be able to connect a 10-frame attack. Do you not see the problem with that?
Also, the only reason the forced tech strategy works is because of the 1-frame that you can block before you can counter. The fact that I assisted with the discovery of the technique should more than tell you I understand the DOA system.
kyrt
whatever
I've already put money down for this game and I'm looking forward to seeing how much it has changed since the last game I played in the series Dead or Alive 2: Hardcore. I'm happy to be able to play a game in the series again. I just hope it lives up to my admittedly high-ish expectations.
If that indeed is how it's acting to you then that sounds like a glitch.
I've modified the previous entries in the series enough to know that the fighting system in terms of frame advantage/disadvantage is the same as every other fighting game.
Age_of_Truth
[12] Conqueror
Nice one! Maybe they'll bring out retro versions of Rise of the Robots and Street Fighter EX. You can be a pro at them too!
I can't be bothered to go through all the things in the rest of your post, cos it would be saying all the same things again that I've already said. Nice work in making my own point about fireballs back at me again though.
Players need to learn the system. I already said that +12 for example should mean that the player on advantage should trade an i22 attack with an opponent's i10 attack.
Your discovery is a smokescreen. This clearly shows that you do not understand the system:
Nothing good can come of this here, I will make a thread on FSD.