ShenYu
[11] Champion
I hate you Khent.
General Strategy
- Thread starter ShenYu
- Start date
page
[11] Champion
My hate for Cervantes is primal . . . elemental, even.
Hot pics.
Hot pics.
Alstein
[09] Warrior
I want the SC2 3P outfit back.
SilentWall
[10] Knight
Ok. I think Mina's throw game is pretty wake because she doesn't have a move, which can mix with throw to be a true mix-up.
Guys, please give me some suggestion when you have some idea. 3bK is not as good as I thought. I think its' range is worse than Mina's throw range, and it is unsafe, slow recovery and doesn't track well. XD
Anyway, I'm going to test 1B, but not sure how good it will be. That is my last bottle neck session for my Mina. =(...
Please help. After that, everything will be perfect.
Guys, please give me some suggestion when you have some idea. 3bK is not as good as I thought. I think its' range is worse than Mina's throw range, and it is unsafe, slow recovery and doesn't track well. XD
Anyway, I'm going to test 1B, but not sure how good it will be. That is my last bottle neck session for my Mina. =(...
Please help. After that, everything will be perfect.
page
[11] Champion
If you want a mid that will reliably make them stand it's either 66a, 1b, or pogo. Except they can step each of them.
- 6ak doesn't make them stand, and they will have advantage if they're crouching and you whiff the kick.
- 3bk has garbage range and is free damage for anyone who blocks it.
- 8a+b will whiff against people crouching too close and is generally unreliable against anything but step punishment.
- 3b is unsafe and doesn't really get you anything at throw range.
- 6b is too slow, too unsafe, unless you can really hit confirm it, and even then your options are limited.
Pogo and 66a are the only real reasons to not crouch in throw range vs Mina.
- 6ak doesn't make them stand, and they will have advantage if they're crouching and you whiff the kick.
- 3bk has garbage range and is free damage for anyone who blocks it.
- 8a+b will whiff against people crouching too close and is generally unreliable against anything but step punishment.
- 3b is unsafe and doesn't really get you anything at throw range.
- 6b is too slow, too unsafe, unless you can really hit confirm it, and even then your options are limited.
Pogo and 66a are the only real reasons to not crouch in throw range vs Mina.
SilentWall
[10] Knight
Thanks Page. However, Crazy franman and Vints can block Pogo and 66A with throw mix-up every times. XD
My successful rate of this mix-up is about 20%. I think these moves are good to mix with throw, but I need a true mix-up to back them up. Or I need some tricky technic to make them work?
My successful rate of this mix-up is about 20%. I think these moves are good to mix with throw, but I need a true mix-up to back them up. Or I need some tricky technic to make them work?
page
[11] Champion
Try more delays?
Look at what franman will do to abuse Cervy's command throw. He knows there's no reason to duck against Cervy that close, so he just crouches and waits for you to stand up or block, then tries to hit you with the command throw. You could work delays in with Mina to get the same effect.
66a is safe, but doesn't knockdown or do much damage, that's the problem it has. But if they want to block it, let them. Pogo is unsafe, but does good damage. Throws are just slow enough that some people will try and duck them on reaction. If you can hit enough 66as they'll eventually want to stop getting hit by them, and if you can predict a crouch pogo instead, since it's got way more damage and range.
It also depends on where you're trying to use throws. Is it an ambiguous situation up close where you don't think you have enough +frames to get a guaranteed punish with 6b+k or whatever? Because then they'll be expecting a throw, and you're more likely to hit them with pogo or 66a. If you're just running up and throwing many people will spot that as well, and if you catch them crouching you can hit them before they realize you're not going to throw. You just have to time it right after reading them.
Another approach is to start with lows and work your way to the throws. First convince them that they need to crouch, then use 66a to convince them they need to stand. That way they're looking for a low animation to crouch and block, instead of a throw animation to crouch under. It gets harder and harder to watch for multiple animations at the same time, and if the lows are annoying enough (4a, 1k, 3a+b are alright for that), then they'll be looking for them more.
Pogo and throw mixups are too slow to abuse, but if you use them at the right time they work. Try pressuring their soul gauge a bit first; when people see it get red, or start to flash, they tend to make riskier defensive decisions.
Look at what franman will do to abuse Cervy's command throw. He knows there's no reason to duck against Cervy that close, so he just crouches and waits for you to stand up or block, then tries to hit you with the command throw. You could work delays in with Mina to get the same effect.
66a is safe, but doesn't knockdown or do much damage, that's the problem it has. But if they want to block it, let them. Pogo is unsafe, but does good damage. Throws are just slow enough that some people will try and duck them on reaction. If you can hit enough 66as they'll eventually want to stop getting hit by them, and if you can predict a crouch pogo instead, since it's got way more damage and range.
It also depends on where you're trying to use throws. Is it an ambiguous situation up close where you don't think you have enough +frames to get a guaranteed punish with 6b+k or whatever? Because then they'll be expecting a throw, and you're more likely to hit them with pogo or 66a. If you're just running up and throwing many people will spot that as well, and if you catch them crouching you can hit them before they realize you're not going to throw. You just have to time it right after reading them.
Another approach is to start with lows and work your way to the throws. First convince them that they need to crouch, then use 66a to convince them they need to stand. That way they're looking for a low animation to crouch and block, instead of a throw animation to crouch under. It gets harder and harder to watch for multiple animations at the same time, and if the lows are annoying enough (4a, 1k, 3a+b are alright for that), then they'll be looking for them more.
Pogo and throw mixups are too slow to abuse, but if you use them at the right time they work. Try pressuring their soul gauge a bit first; when people see it get red, or start to flash, they tend to make riskier defensive decisions.
SilentWall
[10] Knight
Page, I believe Rush->8B+K_throw is not a true mix-up in a CRT TV, but they are still hard to be seen. So I think it is still good as a secondary move, which mixes with throw. 66A sounds better, but I don't know why it doesn't work as good as I thought. -_- On frame data, 66A should be good enough to mix with throw.
InsaneKhent, from the vids, you used a lot of WSB. Do you use WSB to mix with FC1K or FC1B or just for Soul damage? Or do you have any technic to mix WSB with throw? What is your theory on WSB?
InsaneKhent, from the vids, you used a lot of WSB. Do you use WSB to mix with FC1K or FC1B or just for Soul damage? Or do you have any technic to mix WSB with throw? What is your theory on WSB?
page
[11] Champion
Was screwing around with Soul Blade doing research for the blog, and found this:
ughhhhhh
ughhhhhh
Hatman
[08] Mercenary
IMO:
iWS K & 6K are the best options for close mids. Both are unsafe but have great wakes if they hit and are also difficult to step. They also work well as twitch moves because they don't have complex execution. iWS B is very good, even for this game...but is absolutely godly in BD.
iWS K & 6K are the best options for close mids. Both are unsafe but have great wakes if they hit and are also difficult to step. They also work well as twitch moves because they don't have complex execution. iWS B is very good, even for this game...but is absolutely godly in BD.
ZeroEffect317
[13] Hero
What is 33K on block/hit? Couldn't that serve as a decent mid from time to time?
LollipopInMyHair
[10] Knight
33K is -14 on block, and -13 at tip-range. It might be worth it if 33KB would work, but it's Mina, and nothing is straightforward with her.
TsunamiBye
[14] Master
Noob question:
What's the take on CH 11B for Mi-na? I know it's horrible, but I managed to do that to bait hasty opponents to hopefully get a WRB(at mid-far range)>66B>FC1B or use 66A. Then again, what would be a good alternative to bait hasty opponents if this move is highly unrecommended?
What's the take on CH 11B for Mi-na? I know it's horrible, but I managed to do that to bait hasty opponents to hopefully get a WRB(at mid-far range)>66B>FC1B or use 66A. Then again, what would be a good alternative to bait hasty opponents if this move is highly unrecommended?
SilentWall
[10] Knight
Page and InsaneKhent, I was very disappoint about 6AK at first.
However, I think I will treat 6AK as Mitsu's AA. Yes, it is not a mid-high; it is a high-high horizontal move. If I'm thinking that way, I will be happier. =)
6A is a high horizontal, it still hits crouching. It is a bonus. Yes. Self-hypnosis. Sounds stupid. huh? XD
Finally, I think I found the best throw-mix-up solution. Let's test it offline first. =)
However, I think I will treat 6AK as Mitsu's AA. Yes, it is not a mid-high; it is a high-high horizontal move. If I'm thinking that way, I will be happier. =)
6A is a high horizontal, it still hits crouching. It is a bonus. Yes. Self-hypnosis. Sounds stupid. huh? XD
Finally, I think I found the best throw-mix-up solution. Let's test it offline first. =)
stardustwla
[08] Mercenary
SilentWall :
Watched your mina some video.
First...
No tip range no Mina...and remember mina many moves can pull back on block. e.g. A/6B...etc...
And seems it is hard for you to anti side step...
Try many 1/3A+B at tip range.
adv :
[CH] = 9B+KB4B [NC for some character].
[block]= pull back very well and hard to big punish.
[H] = -7 or less but you can side step i15BB.
Use 1/3A+B to make your enemy crouh more.
= enemy less side step
= more chance for your 6B/6BA/6BB/3B/8A+B [good pull back ability when block].
6AK :
Use it when you sure it will fully on hit... else... Use 7K/1BB/A+K/pogo/throw better...
6AK full hit = pull back enemy. And that is the excellent distance for Mina.
VS Ivy...very headache of her G9B...So you need some luck~~
Watched your mina some video.
First...
No tip range no Mina...and remember mina many moves can pull back on block. e.g. A/6B...etc...
And seems it is hard for you to anti side step...
Try many 1/3A+B at tip range.
adv :
[CH] = 9B+KB4B [NC for some character].
[block]= pull back very well and hard to big punish.
[H] = -7 or less but you can side step i15BB.
Use 1/3A+B to make your enemy crouh more.
= enemy less side step
= more chance for your 6B/6BA/6BB/3B/8A+B [good pull back ability when block].
6AK :
Use it when you sure it will fully on hit... else... Use 7K/1BB/A+K/pogo/throw better...
6AK full hit = pull back enemy. And that is the excellent distance for Mina.
VS Ivy...very headache of her G9B...So you need some luck~~
hotnikkelz
johNNy blaZe
Staying at tip range with Mina is MUCH more difficult than it may seems, cuz she lacks moves to stagger on block and she doesn't have the good step. Being as linear as she is doesn't help much. Poor Mina, i can't wait to see her in SC5 though
SilentWall
[10] Knight
stardustwla, my Mina has been in a bottleneck for 2 months already. I think I have to destory the base again and re-build it with a new set of strategy. XD
yea, 6AK is good. I use it as like Talim's AA to beat step.
I will try to use more tip range 1A+B. This suggestion brings me up a new idea. Thank you.
Yea, I agree. B and 2B is a good things.
If it is in CRT TV, I can have enough time to punish Ivy's 8B with 4B or 6B+K(close). However, I know Ivy's 8B is still hard to deal with. Sigh...
hotnikkelz, I think Mina's evading ability of 8WR is better than step. But it is hard to apply on safe game play.
yea, 6AK is good. I use it as like Talim's AA to beat step.
I will try to use more tip range 1A+B. This suggestion brings me up a new idea. Thank you.
Yea, I agree. B and 2B is a good things.
If it is in CRT TV, I can have enough time to punish Ivy's 8B with 4B or 6B+K(close). However, I know Ivy's 8B is still hard to deal with. Sigh...
hotnikkelz, I think Mina's evading ability of 8WR is better than step. But it is hard to apply on safe game play.
ZeroEffect317
[13] Hero
yo, iWS A is awesome. That is all
stardustwla
[08] Mercenary
Mina Player
Have found something very interesting about Mina tip1/3 A+B...
1/3A+B [tip][hit] = -4 , after this :
> 4B = i18
> K = i17
-4 is very good for mina doing any step/run in all direction.
And enemy STILL need running close to you for his move!! Running close at least using 10 frame......
So it's a very good chance for mina attack again.
Using moves with backstep ability e.g. 3A/3AA/6A+B/A+B can have the most chances for CH.
Just like Kilik's 2B > wsB trap careless enemy.
P.S.
It is very easy for looking 33A [CH] or [H], just watching enemy will to side move or attach. Easy than watching NM 4K [CH]
Main Point !!!
1/3A+B[tip][CH] > iFC1KK [tip] = trap except back, if iFC1KK is not at tip [hit] means 1/3A+B not tip enough!!!
1/3A+B[tip][CH] > 9B+K = trap except right tech > still have wakeup game for mina playing B1/3A+B / 3B / 8A+B / 6B / 6BB / 6BA again!!!!!
1/3A+B[tip][CH] > 9B+KBB = kill no tech + Mina x 1 wakeup game.
Player will not always punish iFC1K because of 2nd K can make down / critical easily.
So we can use it more and more. Tip range of course....
If enemy play dead. Mina only can do 2K for little damage. But after 2K [hit] and enemy tech.
2K > 1K [tip] usually get good time for careless man.
2K > 1K[tip] = FC33B[tip] = 8A+B[tip] = 6B[tip] = 33A[tip] etc.!!!!!! [but 33A is very hard to get CH this moment...]
2K > 1KK[tip] = CH.
iFC1KK [tip] > 1/3A+B = trap!!!!!!!(@_@)b
iFC1KK [tip] > 8B+KB4B = kill no tech except tech right
iFC1KK [tip] > 8B+K > player tech right = mina have BT2K/throw/pogo mixup.
iFC1KK [tip] > 2B+K / 2B+KG = kill no tech/force player tech + excellent space for 1/3A+B / 3B / 8A+B / 6B / 6BB / 6BA again!!!!!
3A+B > 8A+B = trap all!!! + Mina have time for her good space and 1/3A+B / 3B / 8A+B / 6B / 6BB / 6BA again!!!!!
3A+B > 9B+KB4B = kill no tech + Mina WakeUp game BT2K/throw/pogo mixup.
3A+B > 9B+K = kill no tech except right, but still can have excellent space for 1/3A+B / 3B / 8A+B / 6B / 6BB / 6BA again!!!!!
3A+B [break throw] = Mina at least +6 = good space for 3A+B / 3B[tip] / 8A+B[tip].
1A+B [hit] = good space for 3B / 8A+B / 6B / 6BB / 6BA / 33AA except back tech.
1A+B[hit] > enemy back tech = good space for 11A/2A+B/66A+B/44A+B CF damage.
Mina is very interesting after 1/3A+B tip ability (@_@)b!!!! Mina game is little same as Rock's throw game.
Have found something very interesting about Mina tip1/3 A+B...
1/3A+B [tip][hit] = -4 , after this :
> 4B = i18
> K = i17
-4 is very good for mina doing any step/run in all direction.
And enemy STILL need running close to you for his move!! Running close at least using 10 frame......
So it's a very good chance for mina attack again.
Using moves with backstep ability e.g. 3A/3AA/6A+B/A+B can have the most chances for CH.
Just like Kilik's 2B > wsB trap careless enemy.
P.S.
It is very easy for looking 33A [CH] or [H], just watching enemy will to side move or attach. Easy than watching NM 4K [CH]
Main Point !!!
1/3A+B[tip][CH] > iFC1KK [tip] = trap except back, if iFC1KK is not at tip [hit] means 1/3A+B not tip enough!!!
1/3A+B[tip][CH] > 9B+K = trap except right tech > still have wakeup game for mina playing B1/3A+B / 3B / 8A+B / 6B / 6BB / 6BA again!!!!!
1/3A+B[tip][CH] > 9B+KBB = kill no tech + Mina x 1 wakeup game.
Player will not always punish iFC1K because of 2nd K can make down / critical easily.
So we can use it more and more. Tip range of course....
If enemy play dead. Mina only can do 2K for little damage. But after 2K [hit] and enemy tech.
2K > 1K [tip] usually get good time for careless man.
2K > 1K[tip] = FC33B[tip] = 8A+B[tip] = 6B[tip] = 33A[tip] etc.!!!!!! [but 33A is very hard to get CH this moment...]
2K > 1KK[tip] = CH.
iFC1KK [tip] > 1/3A+B = trap!!!!!!!(@_@)b
iFC1KK [tip] > 8B+KB4B = kill no tech except tech right
iFC1KK [tip] > 8B+K > player tech right = mina have BT2K/throw/pogo mixup.
iFC1KK [tip] > 2B+K / 2B+KG = kill no tech/force player tech + excellent space for 1/3A+B / 3B / 8A+B / 6B / 6BB / 6BA again!!!!!
3A+B > 8A+B = trap all!!! + Mina have time for her good space and 1/3A+B / 3B / 8A+B / 6B / 6BB / 6BA again!!!!!
3A+B > 9B+KB4B = kill no tech + Mina WakeUp game BT2K/throw/pogo mixup.
3A+B > 9B+K = kill no tech except right, but still can have excellent space for 1/3A+B / 3B / 8A+B / 6B / 6BB / 6BA again!!!!!
3A+B [break throw] = Mina at least +6 = good space for 3A+B / 3B[tip] / 8A+B[tip].
1A+B [hit] = good space for 3B / 8A+B / 6B / 6BB / 6BA / 33AA except back tech.
1A+B[hit] > enemy back tech = good space for 11A/2A+B/66A+B/44A+B CF damage.
Mina is very interesting after 1/3A+B tip ability (@_@)b!!!! Mina game is little same as Rock's throw game.
SilentWall
[10] Knight
stardustwla,
Thanks for your suggestion that reminds me this important move - 33AA.
I knew 33AA has hit confirm, but I thought it is not effective because you are unable to see the different of Hit and CH. That you still have 50% ratio to get CH and 50% ratio to be punished. Because of this thought, making me use it less.
However, I think nothing is guaranteed safe, so I will try to apply it on my game more. I believe it will work. Thanks.
Thanks for your suggestion that reminds me this important move - 33AA.
I knew 33AA has hit confirm, but I thought it is not effective because you are unable to see the different of Hit and CH. That you still have 50% ratio to get CH and 50% ratio to be punished. Because of this thought, making me use it less.
However, I think nothing is guaranteed safe, so I will try to apply it on my game more. I believe it will work. Thanks.