Grøh Moveset Analysis

Ninjaguy446

[14] Master
reverse ring out from a throw.
side throw
This horizontal looks +on block and the follow up to 3B looks like it gives no oki.
Is it just me or does his 1A look reactable.
We haven't actually seen Groh's ID K hit on CH yet but I think it may lead to ID A, just speculation but it reminds me of relic K from sc4.
I thought the same thing. All of his lows look reactable besides for the one that looks like Hilde 1B, and that one’s followup isn’t a NC and didn’t do much damage.
 

babalook

[10] Knight
I thought the same thing. All of his lows look reactable besides for the one that looks like Hilde 1B, and that one’s followup isn’t a NC and didn’t do much damage.
Ya, I'm hoping his 1B looking move has a 1B6 for ID transition which could make it more useful. I feel like his 1A isn't supposed to be reactable seeing as it has an SC version (unless 1AK is plus on block), I think it is meant to function like Mitsu's 2KB.

Also, it looks like, at least where this move is concerned, that ID transitions on block don't leave you at an advantage in ID seeing as ID K looks like his fastest option and NM's 4K isn't that fast of a move.
 

Ninjaguy446

[14] Master
Ya, I'm hoping his 1B looking move has a 1B6 for ID transition which could make it more useful. I feel like his 1A isn't supposed to be reactable seeing as it has an SC version (unless 1AK is plus on block), I think it is meant to function like Mitsu's 2KB.

Also, it looks like, at least where this move is concerned, that ID transitions on block don't leave you at an advantage in ID seeing as ID K looks like his fastest option and NM's 4K isn't that fast of a move.
We'll probably just have to use ID only on hit then or else we'll get punished. And yeah the SC version with the attack throw of 1A looks really cool but I doubt we'll be landing it because it is reactable. Hopefully he has a horizontal mid that has a very similar startup? This could offset it being reactable and just make it a 50/50. Although, I would prefer it if it worked like Mitsu 2KB lol that would make life easier.
 

babalook

[10] Knight
We'll probably just have to use ID only on hit then or else we'll get punished. And yeah the SC version with the attack throw of 1A looks really cool but I doubt we'll be landing it because it is reactable. Hopefully he has a horizontal mid that has a very similar startup? This could offset it being reactable and just make it a 50/50. Although, I would prefer it if it worked like Mitsu 2KB lol that would make life easier.
I think ID transitions will be most useful when in the middle of a string rather than the end, that way the opponent has to guess if you're going to finish the string or transition.
I suppose 1AK looks like it would function well as a move to catch left/right techs in setups but it's a bit early for tech trap speculation.
 

Windstar

[13] Hero
1A would have to be i19 at least for it to be reactable, and I doubt we'll even get a low or special low as fast 2K or even Mitsu's 2KB (he's the only one who gets to be that special). ID K (the low) looks faster, but probably minus on hit or even neutral. I get the sense that it's going to be similar to Xianghua's crybaby.

It looks like a few of Groh's basic linear strings - NCCs - could be steppable on block. That's not the best sign unless he gets some good variants or quick cancels to punish step. It looks like he has a WS A+B that leads into ID for shenanigans, and in general, again, it looks like you can perform an ID move from frame 0 so you don't have to wait for the stance animation to pull something out. So treat Night's 4KK punish with a grain of salt until we know more.

I don't really see a whole lot of use out SC yet. It's pretty gimmicky, and once activated, you pretty much know that Groh's got some extra strings, on-demand CE and a teleport available. This really isn't enough to break down a possible turtling game/stall once SC is active, so here's hoping there's something to really make it work.
 

babalook

[10] Knight
I keep seeing this move which appears to be his only standing mid horizontal, is it just me or does it look like the first hit of a string?
ID K (the low) looks faster, but probably minus on hit or even neutral.


I don't really see a whole lot of use out SC yet. It's pretty gimmicky, and once activated, you pretty much know that Groh's got some extra strings, on-demand CE and a teleport available. This really isn't enough to break down a possible turtling game/stall once SC is active, so here's hoping there's something to really make it work.
I think you right about ID K, the sophi player steps ID B after an ID K on hit. He may not have done the ID B as soon as possible but there's really no way to tell at this point. I really want to see if it's different on CH though.
I agree about SC too, it's clearly meant to make you an OP offensive powerhouse for a short period of time, but without a unreactable-threatening low, safe launcher (I suppose he has this since he can cancel 3B into ariel teleport moves), and/or tons of plus frames on block, I don't see much of a point. I just hate that SC is such a gamble, you spend a bar of meter in hopes that you will be able to open your opponent up in the next 8 seconds? At the very least the activation hitbox shouldn't have so much pushback, being left at that range isn't universally desirable for all characters.
What do mean by "on-demand CE"?
 

Signia

[13] Hero

Groh's looking pretty strong and beginner-friendly from I've seen so far. What jumps out immediately is his range. It may not look that long since he takes his body with him, but his attacks reach a long distance without exposing his body hitbox too much. His attack speed and recovery aren't particularly slow either. The combination of medium speed, long range, and recovery (as well as stance transition options on whiff, maybe) means Groh players won't need to worry as much about whiffing and playing the standard neutral game against him looks to be difficult. Counter-poking rather than trying to move around his attacks seems like a better strategy against him, especially because...

He has a lot of decent looking lows. They do have particular animations, but they are not that slow looking and there's more than one to look for. This kind of low is the ideal type to use against step G (after a short delay for linear lows). A little misdirection and subtlety and these lows will be landing in high level play, mark my words.

I'm not seeing much in the way of pokes that don't move him forward, so a keepaway playstyle might not be easy to accomplish despite the long range. It seems he's intended to attack from mid to long range primarily, bringing him closer to the opponent, and to keep the opponent in his "web" so to speak, making him stop moving so Groh can do lows perhaps. Or, he can back off after landing hits, of course, but the defensive pattern will be going in and out from long range to mid range and then back to long range.

His whiff punish tools that look really easy to use play into this, as he'll be able to hang around at the opponent's tip range at mid to long range while they're well within his range and mix between coming in with an attack and baiting whiffs.

As for weaknesses, one will likely be opponents simply blocking his big moves, which may leave Groh in front of them at disadvantage. Like Cervantes or Aeon/Lizardman who have had this similar mid-long range, mid speed, heavy hitter archetype, it looks like he commits pretty hard any time he uses an attack, though, even something as simple as having a good A poke would change that. He appears to have the tools to deal with passivity, though.

This design doesn't leave a lot of room for skill to carry him, as skill doesn't seem required to avoid whiffs and on block he seems to be committed. I personally couldn't play a character like this because the design doesn't seem to reward good spacing, though it may help to avoid falling prey to his other likely weaknesses, getting dominated when in the ideal range of other characters and getting hit as he comes in with an attack without anything really fast to whiff punish quick pokes.

Also hi babalook go to tournaments
 
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Windstar

[13] Hero
After seeing the above video and looking at that WS B (or is it FC3B?) he definitely has some strong reach and great commital moves with good NC damage in there.

After years of playing Xianghua and seeing what they've done to her in taking apart a lot of her commital and NCs, I think this is a good thing.

Yeah, it can make him predictable, but a lot of what I see here in Groh is a lot of what I remember of SC1 Kilik and the way they worked him. It wasn't his long strings (outside of Phoenix Rush) that gave him his edge, but his Legend Rush, and range and ability to trap or contain an opponent. While SC2 and SC4 gave him more of a top-tier edge thanks to AD and just-frames, many of Kilik's shortcomings more or less disappeared.

And that's what I see here with Groh. Lessons learned from Kilik's initial outing as a beginner-friendly middle-ranged fighter with a more rounded set of principles and guarantees, and enough subtle elements and fakes (ID stance, great linear coverage) to give him more to work with against more experienced opponents. One positive I see here on the fundamental level of game, is that less about frame punishers (Ala SC5) and more about reads. Frame punishers aren't taking away a fourth to a third of the health on a target anymore, and the real damage is coming from solid reads and reacting with the right moves. That's classic SC1/2-style strategy. Groh, so far, doesn't have any iconic punishers, but a lot of ways to correctly punish frames or whiffs and then go in for really good reads for the big damage.

And yeah, you're right. He definitely seems to lack elements of poking or baiting opponents, rather it seems he's more into a bull-dog or pit-bull style of just being rather evasive with certain attacks and then staying in there with at least a little bit of pushback or block stun. Much of the same way NIghtmare crashes into players, but NIghtmare also has ways of getting opponents to make mistakes, how does Groh force players into bad thinking or reads?
 

Robert_J_King

Royal Impact Style
It's like a mobile version of Raphael's Canterella needle moves. 6, 8, 2 B+K. Attempts to catch sidestepping but it dodges. Twice.
 

babalook

[10] Knight
fast-ish high horizontal GB that leads back into stance (maybe with some invulnerability frames on startup or a built-in backdash based on the teleport animation)

throw animation is different in SC, probably just does a little more damage
 

Windstar

[13] Hero
This
https://8wayrun.com/proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2FidSIMOGfk9ylUAqZXR%2Fgiphy.gif&hash=454b2d696bfea0ef8ba1b0d2de2cf479his


is this
https://8wayrun.com/proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Fi.makeagif.com%2Fmedia%2F5-08-2018%2Fv0yt31.gif&hash=68e60a8e38625c3a1dc89b3ba6a5da4c


This is actually WS AA
https://8wayrun.com/attachments/groh-6aa-gif.48795/

8A+B
https://8wayrun.com/attachments/groh-8b-gif.48796/


I'm surprised that with the number of people who have played Groh so far, none of them have tried to experiment a little beyond 66Bs, As, and 3Bs. Almost no one tries to use his Ks (which he has a decent number of good ones).

Anyway, got to try him a bit. He's actually pretty evasive with a lot of built-in sidesteps on some of his stuff - reminds me a bit of Talim. His stance can be cancelled with G, sidestep (22 or 88, or teleport if in Soul Charge mode). His 1A is probably his best rewarded low out of neutral, but it doesn't have the reach of Mitsu's, and it's punishable.

2A+B is the low hitting guard break. 44B is the pull-back and slam with the full blunt of the doubleblade. 44A is a slow twisting mid that can stun on counter hit. 66K is the launcher K, followed up with a weird looking attack that's a slash and a jump kick 8B+K and then 3B.

https://8wayrun.com/proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Fi.makeagif.com%2Fmedia%2F1-25-2018%2FYWMNCw.gif&hash=cd69edf77cd066e71a5298cd58b47ab2


In the long run, I'm having a hard time thinking that any of the Brave Edge attacks from Soul Charge are going to be useful in much the same way a lot of Brave Edge attacks lost their luster in SCV. A lot of Groh's right now just don't seem very useful in combos or as whiff punishers.


Aside from that. He's good, get away from all the running 8WR stuff and his basic neutral game is actually a lot better than I thought. His WS game is also really good and he's got a few great whiff punishers. I didn't find any real tricky strings ala Kilik, but he's not as limited as ZWEI and not too many of his strings are as basic or overtly similar (that said, he has a lot of mids at first blush).
 

babalook

[10] Knight
His stance can be cancelled with G, sidestep (22 or 88, or teleport if in Soul Charge mode).
When you say canceled with G, how fast/early would you say he exits the stance animation? I feel like a lot of Groh's potential will depend on what his frame data looks like when transitioning from a move into a stance, canceling out of a stance transition, recovery frames after teleport, how fast he can get a stance move out after an SC 3B into ID on block, etc. because his combo and oki game hasn't been very impressive thus far (which could change).
 

Windstar

[13] Hero
It seems pretty active from frame 0. Meaning I could do a B6 and immediately buffer ID BB without waiting for the animation frames of the stance to appear on screen. Ironically, you can do B6 ID B into ID B (since it recovers in ID) ala Siegfried and SCH K pokes.

For the cancel,, sidestep, etc. it seems pretty fast and you might be able to block or sidestep some low negative strings, but I don't think you'll be able to do this with all stance transitions on block.

Course, we'll see. This build we have seen is pretty ancient at this point and I'm sure they've gone through and done some tweaks on the later builds, so we'll have to wait. I'm pretty certain there's going to be a few changes here and there.
 

babalook

[10] Knight
cool little lethal hit combo.

I'm a bit worried about his combo game, specifically his combo enders. I've noticed a lot of people that get to play the game have been opting to go for things like 6BB6 or 66B+K6 after a 3B launcher since it leads into ID and leaves the opponent closer than this combo:
But 6BB is almost undoubtedly air controllable and 66B+K, as shown in the first GIF, pushes them out of range for ID K, one of his two options from stance that hit grounded. I also wouldn't be surprised if 66B+K doesn't lead to the opponent being forced to block ID B+K either due to the opponent being able to side tech after and/or because it pushes them out of range of the first hit of ID B+K. Outside of stance, we have better ground hitting mids, but no lows that are unreactable or terribly rewarding. Also, I can't find the video where I saw it but I believe teleporting behind the opponent in SC leaves you outside of ID K range, which is probably one of his best options from stance. In comparison to the other characters I've been analyzing the most (yoshi and kilik), groh doesn't look nearly as good, but who knows maybe he has amazing frame data that will make up for what appears to be poor lows, grab range, and oki.