Hate Speech Theory Fighter University: Tiers

Tier /ti(ə)r/ (noun):
  1. A row or level of a structure, typically one of a series of rows placed one above the other and successively receding or diminishing in size.
  2. One of a number of successively overlapping ruffles or flounces on a garment.
  3. A level or grade within the hierarchy of an organization or system.
One doesn’t need to be a grizzled fighting game veteran to be familiar with the concept of tiers. Hell, a cursory glance through pretty much any thread in the forums reveals that our little community is positively suffused with tier-speak. For those of you unfamiliar with the term as it’s used in reference to fighting games, however, we are primarily concerned with definition three above (and, to a more idiosyncratic extent, definition two, but that may be another column entirely). At their best, tiers provide a useful shorthand for understanding match-ups and the relative strength or weakness of a character as compared to the rest of the cast. As is the case with any word thrown about so casually, there’s plenty of misinformation floating around, so this week I’ll be tackling some major myths about what tiers mean, how they’re formed, and how we can utilize tier lists and matchup knowledge to gain a competitive edge.

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Be warned: Tier Debating can lead to feeling like this guy looks. Or British. Same difference.

But before I can do that, it’s important that I submit to you my own working definition of character tiers. Here at Hate Speech Theoryfighter University (HSTFU for short), a character’s overall tier rank reflects its total potential, based on individual match-ups, when played at the highest possible level. In other words, when player skill is normalized and therefore factored out of the equation, which characters are simply most effective? Note that for our purposes ease-of-use has no place in tier discussion. This is because the easiest characters to play and are not always necessarily the most dangerous in high-level play, for one. Secondly, ease-of-use is subjective. What’s difficult for one player might be trivial to another. There is simply no reasonable way to account for these discrepancies.

Tier Myth One: Tiers Don’t Exist

Some version of this venerable myth gets trotted out every time an excellent player does well with a character not thought to be “top.” It’s patently ridiculous. Consider that tiers, for our purposes, reflect a character’s potential, not a player’s. The sheer diversity found in the casts of any fighting game made after Karate Champ dictates that some characters will have more favorable match-ups than others, and that is the very essence of what tiers should indicate.

Claiming that tiers don’t exist because Rock has a chance of winning against Amy, no matter how small, is akin to arguing that because I could theoretically walk from my apartment in the San Francisco bay area all the way to NEC instead of taking a plane, there’s no such thing as speed. I’d end up at the same destination, so what’s the difference, right?

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Everyone knows Red was broken in Karate champ anyways.

Tier Myth Two: Tiers Are Destiny

One-hundred eighty degrees away from our first tier myth we find this one: “OMG TOP TIER = AUTO-WIN.” It’s an assertion that is entirely too broad. First, upsets will always be part of life in the tournament scene. Second, and more importantly, just because a character is good does not mean that it will do all of the heavy lifting. Top-tier characters tend to reward good decision-making on the part of the player far more generously than do low-tiers, but nevertheless that human element will always be a factor in how matches play out. Tiers are guidelines; they will help us make informed choices about the characters into which we invest our time, but there are never any guarantees.

Tier Myth Three: Tournament Results = Tiers

As stated earlier, a proper tier list should eliminate the human element as much as possible in order to provide any semblance of consistency. Given that reality, lending too much credence to tournament results when considering tier lists is incredibly counterproductive. Yes, there will be strong correlation between top characters and average tournament placing, but there will always be players who make certain characters seem far better—or, in some instances, far worse—than in fact they are. When in doubt, think logically and do the math, putting aside anecdotal evidence.

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...and then sometimes tournament results and tiers do align

Tier Myth Four: Top Tiers Require No Skill/Low Tier Takes Balls

This one causes me physical pain. First, nowhere will you find a white-bearded man holding aloft a stone tablet with an inscription proclaiming all good characters to be brainless. Yes, some of them are. Many are, in certain games. Still, the relationship isn’t causal. Some high tier characters require a lot of thinking and engagement; they’re just high-tier because of how generously they reward such actions. Conversely, there is nothing particularly brave about playing a terrible character. If you only enjoy playing a bad character (or have serious character loyalty from game to game), that’s absolutely fine, but it is no badge of honor. In fact, in many cases the whole low-tier hero thing is a form of insipid, backhanded cowardice.

Picking a terrible character, giving oneself no shot at victory, and subsequently proclaiming some sort of moral victory is the behavior of a person who ultimately knows that he can’t hang with the big boys. Don’t be that person. Play the characters you love, but leave circuitous notions of honor out of it.

So, What’s the Point?

I’ve posed a fairly strict theory on the way to think about tiers, alongside which I’ve talked a lot about what tiers are not and should not do. What remains is a theoretical model fairly limited in scope, but not at all useless. Proper tier lists, once they’re a bit settled, actually provide us with valuable information about how and where to invest our practice resources.

First, tiers give a general idea of return on investment at the level of character selection. Let’s say, hypothetically, the time and effort necessary to become the best Rock player in the world is identical to the time and effort necessary to become the tenth-best Amy player. Oh, and it just so happens that you have exactly that amount of time and effort at your disposal. A review of the tiers and the match-ups tells us that your time is probably far better spent in becoming the tenth-best Amy, all other things being equal.

Even once you’ve chosen a character, reviewing a tier list for insight into which match-ups are most difficult for that character, regardless of its tier, can help you decide which match-ups to study most in-depth when budgeting your limited practice time.

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Besides, we all know this is the only tier list that matters anyways.

Homework:

You know the drill. Before you rip me too viciously, however, note that Theoryfighter University will be back very soon with explication and defense of some of the more assailable points from above, particularly with regard to the meat and potatoes of how to sort out a tier list. Consider the gauntlet thrown.
 
I have a question as far as the who is better thing. Let's say there is 2 people. Now person A never loses to anyone ever. Except, when he goes up against person B. Person B beats the ever living dog shit out of person A every time. However Person B loses the some of his matches against all these other people that Person A runs through. So, my question is, who is better? Person A or Person B?
More of an any given sunday type thing IMO. The one that's better is the one that wins more events
 
idk, x seems pretty broken.......... have you ever played against a x user? they are usually pretty good and win often.
Nah - she's not broken, she just competes pretty well with the whole cast. Only Ivy gives her a lot of trouble in terms of tournament legal characters.
 
Self Depricating but Hilarious Video Link

I'd say this is an example more of not letting character ignorance get in the way of the match-up. It's obvious you knew where to duck out of his strings, and knew he didn't have frames for shit, allowing you to press him much harder and force him to make more choices, which went in your favor.

Just my 2c
 
When I read this post I remember a comment that some player put on my video on youtube:

"sorry, but, haven't u ever had someone repeat the same thing to you over and over again and they just won't shut up? that's what it's like to watch SO many people post videos and use that frickin' Ivy. plz, have mercy and choose Talim or even Yoshi.... or why not Setsuka???? or even Tira????"

Like you said, players must play with characters they like and want. I like Ivy and Zasalamel and I don´t care about tier lists. I already used both on championships and won important matches with them.
 
You want balance?! I'll give you balance!
TicTacToe2Small.jpg

Yeah now what!
You do know that the player who plays first has an advancment?
Now let me tell you that the player who plays 2nd has a mathematical algorithm that gives him 100% a draw match...
yea nice balance.

now on topic:

tiers: so who decides tiers?and where does the info come from? match up info from tournaments? recorded batles from arcade all over the world? a group of players who thinks they know to play?WHO?

well let me tell you that tier lists are correct until proven false.(and thats why they change every second)
why do i say that?There might be a char in a game that is not used a lot, or a char that has a lot of tools but never get used properly, or that all the "high level players" never actually used him.Or a trick gimmick or "i don't even know what trick" that he can use in his advancment never got found by anyone.
And thats why u see tier lists change all the time.

but one thing i do agree is that there are some mistakes and some chars are "too much" overpowered , i say mistakes because it is a mistake by the games team.

i am not good at expressing myself on english i hope i reached you.
 
You do know that the player who plays first has an advancment?
Now let me tell you that the player who plays 2nd has a mathematical algorithm that gives him 100% a draw match...
yea nice balance.

now on topic:
I just wanted to thank you for telling me what's up.
 
A story for you- I have beaten a tournament level Amy with Rock, offline in a tournament setting. I switched to Rock because I felt the matchup was better for 2 reasons

1) Amy specific combos, and a good read on the players habits to exploit his ducking with 2B+G into those Amy specific combos

2) Character ignorance. I figured he wouldn't know how to punish or stop me because you hardly ever see or prepare for Rock in tournament.

Character ignorance is something Tier Martyrs like to gloss over- because the fact is when people know the match-ups against low tiers in SC4, you are probably going to lose.

Even Omega himself says this about Zas and his matches. Omega is a far far superior player to most; in the top class... but Zas isn't a character even near the top class. The difference in his matches at EVO 09 when nobody knew the match-up, and at DEV were telling- because some people DID know the match-up.

At the end of the day, identifying character ignorance and using it is one of the most powerful reasons to use a low tier. The thing is, like the low tiers themselves, it's a gimmick and ought not to be relied on if you are serious about competing in the game.
Still a good trick to have in mind just as long as you do know the match-up. Nothing wrong with having a pocket *insert character here* ready to use as a a counter-pick.
I think that is pretty much a different subject. I was arguing that being a low-tier hero makes you a more well rounded player overall. Learning a character with a unique style is different from that, with it's own set of obstacles. (though I'd also say that often times, you have to have ingenuity to play low tier, which could indirectly help). I wasn't trying the argue that playing lowtier will help you specifically learn higher tier characters with unique attributes -- i.e. Being a master Mina player won't necessarily make you a master Voldo player, but it WILL help you be a master Soul Calibur 4 player

It's the same with unique character matchups too. That's a case-by-case basis.

But the things I'm talking about with low-tier using is using fundamental knowledge to your fullest advantages - blocking properly, punishing properly, using frames, using system attributes to your advantage, such as life bar, game clock, stun bar/guard break/soul gauge, using psychological tools to gain upper hand, etc. Those can be learned when using higher tier characters, but when using low-tiers, it tends to become a requirement, therefore you are more subjected to learning/using these tools. For example, alot of Ivy users I see below the highest level use her pretty well and are pretty scary enough. But they don't even use things like her good soul gauge game. Why? Because they don't need it; and they don't bother to learn it because of that. But what if they did? Their overall game would become that much scarier/stronger
I still say it's on a game-per-game basis. While this may be true for Soul Cal, it might not be true for others. For example, most Guilty Gear players will likely tell you not to do this since you'll end up learning stuff not applicable to other characters. And playing low tier in MvC2 simply locks you out from fundamental tools like tri-jumps and fly/unfly cancels.

Now the question is, with how unique the new character's we're seeing come in, what happens if SCV's metagame starts to develop fundamentals unique to a subset of characters (still waiting for true, full screen zoning in a 3D fighter, maybe we'll get something close to it here). Especially since we have 2 characters who have what seem to be true projectile analogues (as per Killian's description of them) that, don't just allow you to hit from afar, but also control space independently of your character
 
I still say it's on a game-per-game basis. While this may be true for Soul Cal, it might not be true for others. For example, most Guilty Gear players will likely tell you not to do this since you'll end up learning stuff not applicable to other characters. And playing low tier in MvC2 simply locks you out from fundamental tools like tri-jumps and fly/unfly cancels.

Then Why mention other games on a SC forum in which the debate is about SC tiers? I feel this was wasted typing.
 

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