Here's what you'd be left with

Eh, somewhat. But also general mods like CPMA for Quake 3, not just total conversions.

What I'm getting at is, there are many competitive communities where the players have direct access to the devs (or are the devs) and things get bannned (patched, changed) and unbanned all the time.

There are also times when the competitive community just decides that the developers didn't do good enough a job and change a few things (like OSP for Quake 3 or the HLDM mods).

It should always be noted that devs often have no godamn idea what proper balance is, and it's not uncommon for people to decide to play their games completely differently from what was originally intended. Some devs roll with it (look at Starcraft) some devs fail hard.
 
DrHobo said:
But seriously, you do realize that what you're using is called a slippery slope argument, and that slippery slope arguments are considered flawed logic?

The reason for this is, you're taking one event and claiming it will lead to any number of dooms day scenarios with no real reason or evidence behind it.
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You do realize we are on roll? We have already banned two characters, and if you include Bonus characters it goes up to seven.

I knew the hilde banwagon was coming, and if we ban her there is nothing stopping us from banning the next character.
 
I'd just like to chip in and say that Organous is spot-on. If there's one thing that playing Guilty Gear has taught me, it's that people need to quit whining and learn to play the match-ups. Come on, banners. This isn't MvC2 (hell, even MvC2 players didn't ban anybody!) Everyone is playable and everyone is beatable.

I'm for unbanning everyone. Banning is dumb.
 
Plume said:
How can you tell?
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Well, I'm going off the current apparent balance of the game. As far as I can tell - and I hope someone will agree with me on this - no character/characters is/are pulling way out in front of anyone else; believe it or not, Hilde, Voldo, Sophie, and Setsuka do lose matches every once in a while, and Mina, Talim, and Maxi win some just as well.

If one character proves unbeatable in the long run, we can ban him/her then. But hell, nobody banned GGXX#R Eddie or HnK Toki. I'm convinced current fears are just people being scared of different match-ups.
 
Darago said:
Well, I'm going off the current apparent balance of the game.
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Yes, apparent ...from your point of view.

Others say that Hilde is above everyone (and Algol too), and they say that because it's how things appear from their point of view.

Edit: Of course Hilde loses a match once in a while. Not all Hilde players are as good as their opponent, and not all of them abuse the RO combo.
 
Plume said:
Yes, apparent ...from your point of view.

Others say that Hilde is above everyone (and Algol too), and they say that because it's how things appear from their point of view.
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Gah...look, you're entirely missing the point. Believe it or not, people beat Algol and Hilde. That's not my opinion, that's facts. How many times have either of those two won a major tournament? I'd wager the statistic isn't far out of proportion with other characters. We're not looking at a couple of ST Akuma-sized monsters here, just two characters that play differently, and can thus be scary to alarmists.

EDIT: Haha, responded before your edit. I can't really edit this in any meaningful way to respond - and I don't feel a need to - so I'll let it sit.

EDIT 2: Anyway, why are we banning characters when SCIV hasn't really matured competitively in the first place?
 
Darago said:
Well, I'm going off the current apparent balance of the game. As far as I can tell - and I hope someone will agree with me on this - no character/characters is/are pulling way out in front of anyone else; believe it or not, Hilde, Voldo, Sophie, and Setsuka do lose matches every once in a while, and Mina, Talim, and Maxi win some just as well.
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Hah. If only. :(
 
ok, the stupid banter about slipperyslope and all that other bullshit aside, let's look at the facts:

-there was a ban on CAS characters because of certain adv/disadv. from the normal characters. this ban has stayed true since sc3. those adv/disadv are less apparent now and the character balancing is lightyears ahead of sc3. this, now, isn't game-breaking.

-there was a ban on star wars characters, because they didn't "belong" in the game because of some bullshit story that was made-up to give all these idiots a reason to find this great amazing soul edge/calibur sword. yea, yoda and vader are consol specific (kind of), but apprentice isn't. this isn't game-breaking.

-there was a ban on the extra characters for a few reasons: again, they don't fit in the bullshit "storyline"; they gain certain advantages compared to their counterparts; they also have disadvantages from their counterparts. this isn't game-breaking.

-there was a ban on algol because... well, for a lot of reasons. ultimately, people didn't want to have to be forced to learn how to play against a character that was vastly different than the rest of the cast. this isn't game-breaking.

-now, we have some lame asses calling for a ban on hilde because of her RO ability. in actuality, that's a guise for people not wanting to learn how to play against something that actually makes them f***ing think and actually have to use defense to win the match.

isn't that a bit of a snow ball effect in and of itself? i'm sure this thread can be used as a parody for some nice tongue-in-cheek humor, but the reality is that it's not too far off point.

i can see it now: people complaining about kilik's asura and fotd to asura ro ability.... yoshi's imcf to 3b,44bb, 44bb, a:b+k ro ability...

how bout this: don't be a bitch and just play the game.
 
a simple observation

what the whole banning and over-poweredness issue needs, if a definite conclusion is desired, is more (not less, and certainly not zero) people to play and master these characters, and for those people to go and play the (other) top players and see what comes of it. the only problem i can see with this is the amount of time and talented players that this would take, but it is not impossible. definitive answers won't come unless those characters and their matchups are exposed to their fullest. this is happening right now with Hilde, too bad Algol is exempt at the moment.

essentially the history of SC4 in the Americas is yet too short to make definite judgements on this matter. we need the OOFMATICs and Ceirnians and the whoever-plays-Algols to try to break the system as hard as they can (while facing comparable competition) in order to determine which characters, if any, are truly ban- or nerf-worthy. a few local tournaments are not enough to determine anything concrete or absolute, so it seems to me.

i feel that too many people are making predictions driven by fear and lack of adequate knowledge and experience at this point in time. i could be wrong, of course.

sincerely,

Scrubbles McNobody
 
Plume said:
It must be fun believing that every character can deal with Algol's bubbles...
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spare me. have you even really tried? i have yet to see vids of people that actually know how to play this game aside from the korean vids i saw a couple weeks ago. i'm certainly not saying that i play at that level, but i've been saying for quite some time that people haven't really broken this game down enough yet to know how broken anything is.

it's like this community has turned into a bunch of babies who will throw their hands up and kick dirt at the first sign that they actually have to try to learn something rather than expecting a block, run up, attack repeat in order to win.
 
mitsurugi should be banned, he has full tracking Unblockables, unblockables that hits mid and low, he also has lows that are impossible to block on reaction!

am i doing this right?
 
tribaL said:
spare me. have you even really tried?
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Depends what you mean by "really tried".
With Maxi, in training, the only possible way that I've found to enter the bubble shield is by side stepping the bubbles, and getting in range at the right time while Algol does 6A+B so that I can perform Maxi's 22A, while Algol cannot use 1A or 11A (or a mid attack), because he's busy launching a linear bubble. That's assuming that he keeps using bubbles, and assuming that I get there without being hit by a bubble, and assuming that he alternates between 4[A+B] and 6[A+B]. Also assuming that I calculate the range correctly. All that just to interrupt Algol...


Call me lazy but so far I haven't tried that in a real match.
 
Organous said:
Ok, Craftsmen, here's what's going to happen if you all get your way and your cries for bans are answered, also what happens when you extend their logic.

Banned characters
Yoda: He can't be thrown, most highs miss, lows can miss if he decides to attack at the same time, monstrous combos up-close with full force, costs money for some players to practice with/against, this isn't Star Wars
Algol: He shoots projectiles, teleports, has very safe moves, boss character
Vader: Costs money for some people, this isn't Star Wars.
Starkiller: Breaks out of grabs with force, this isn't Star Wars.
Hilde: Skilled players can ring out from practically any distance.
Kilik: I don't like Asura Dance.
Cassanda: Hitbox issues

These are just actual complaints I've heard causing some people to ask for bans. Let's extend that logic to see who else would have to be included, shall we?

Nightmare: Grim Roundhouse picks up from grounded and rings out, Grim Stride makes high horizontals whiff.
Lizardman: Crawling stance can't be grabbed except by crouch grabs.
Astaroth: Can grab from any position, breaks grabs while backturned.
Rock: Infinite grab combo, even though breakable.
Raphael: Teleports.
Cervantes: Teleports, shoots projectiles.
Yoshimitsu: Teleports, flies, heals, this isn't Tekken.
Setsuka: Just Impacts better.
Voldo: Blocks backturned, poses can only be crouch-grabbed, breaks grabs backturned, different attacks for females/males.
Taki: An unblockable attack can launch opponent so she can leap and RO.
Yun-Seoung: Crane stance completely negates vertical attacks.
Amy: Small hitbox.
Xianghua: Can attack while grounded.
Tira: 2 characters in one. Nobody else gets entirely separate movelists.

Wow, lots of reasons to ban things. If this ban logic (if it can be called that) is extended to that point, here's what we'll end up with.

Allowed characters
Maxi
Mitsurugi
Yun-seoung
Seoung Mi-Na
Sophitia
Siegfried
Talim
Zasalamel

Still kinda diverse, but we lose so much from the game. I say to all Craftsmen, that the calls for bans will never end. The more you get your way, the more someone else is going to gripe about other characters. When you start demanding that someone gets banned or patched, just think about the other side for a moment. Regardless of how much sense your arguments sound to you, think about what you would think of someone else who is completely convinced this other character is broken, while you've been (probably) able to answer it consistently. Just wanted to add a little perspective there.

EDIT: Added Tira to banlist, giving us 8 now.
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I agree, completely. No characters should be banned, it's just foolish.
 
Did you really forget the entire GI portion of the bubble game? How you can turn, on reaction, some of Algols bubbles against him?
 
Plume: Maxi sucks against Algol, that's just how it is. It's not like Maxi doesn't have a lot of other bad matchups besides Algol anyway.

complaining about bad matchups is fine. complaining about bad matchups and using it as justification for bans is not. back in SC3 i complained about nm vs sophie all the damn time but I never said "sophie should be banned because she gives some characters an absurdly hard time"
 
I partially agree, Tiamat, but I get the impression that Algol is a bad match up for many characters. (Those with low range... Raphael might be an exception, but I wouldn't know.)

If he's indeed a bad match up for most characters, then logically, Algol should be banned. Or else, you soft-ban every character that can't deal with him. (And in this case, we're not really talking about bad match up... we're talking about nearly impossible match up.)

Ceirnian, GIing bubbles doesn't make any miracle, especially if Algol is using slow bubbles.
...And if you disagree, just think "Warble". Think of why everyone laughed at him. Now tell me again about GIing bubbles.
 
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