High-Level Playstyle

[Dr. Hates]

While thinking about the specifics of various matchups (prompted by another thread that could use more debate, as always), I was struck by the fact that my opinions about said matchups, why I think they are favorable or unfavorable, are quite contingent upon my overall opinion of how Cervantes should be played.

As such, I think it might be fruitful to open up a discussion on some of the more broad-stroke, abstract elements of high-level Cervantes play. In other words, things like turtling vs. rushdown, how important is spacing, how vital are wakeups, wall combos, execution, etcetera. How do YOU get the most out of Cervantes as a character?

I'll share a bit of my own stuff, but I will try to resist my natural inclination toward becoming didactic. I don't want this to be "THE DEFINITIVE GUIDE TO HATES' CERVANTES," so please push back, disagree, make new suggestions, etcetera.

Once we determine what we think are some of the most important points, I'd like to put together a list of suggestions for how to improve as players trying to learn and/or refine such skills.

The only thing I ask is that assertions about key elements in Cervantes' game come in something akin to the following format:

1. Tell us up front what it is you think is so important.
2. Thumbnail sketch it in slightly more detailed manner.
3. Justify it by providing examples.

This isn't to be draconian, but insisting on examples, etc, should help prevent us from going off half-cocked and also give us material with which to argue and debate.

I'll go first:
I think good spacing is absolutely crucial to playing Cervantes at a high level. Cervantes' tools, while often unsafe, give him the ability to dominate most other characters at appropriate ranges. For example, being ale to maintain proper spacing against Amy (just outside of her throw range) essentially limits her offensive options to things like 33B and 66B for mids, and 1A for lows. The first two can be stepped and provide decent mixup opportunities on block, while the latter move is FC A+B punishable and, on hit, creates mixup situations that are in Cervantes' favor. Spacing, in this instance, completely changes the tenor of the match.

 

[Nofacekill3r]

While thinking about the specifics of various matchups (prompted by another thread that could use more debate, as always), I was struck by the fact that my opinions about said matchups, why I think they are favorable or unfavorable, are quite contingent upon my overall opinion of how Cervantes should be played.

As such, I think it might be fruitful to open up a discussion on some of the more broad-stroke, abstract elements of high-level Cervantes play. In other words, things like turtling vs. rushdown, how important is spacing, how vital are wakeups, wall combos, execution, etcetera. How do YOU get the most out of Cervantes as a character?

I'll share a bit of my own stuff, but I will try to resist my natural inclination toward becoming didactic. I don't want this to be "THE DEFINITIVE GUIDE TO HATES' CERVANTES," so please push back, disagree, make new suggestions, etcetera.

Once we determine what we think are some of the most important points, I'd like to put together a list of suggestions for how to improve as players trying to learn and/or refine such skills.

The only thing I ask is that assertions about key elements in Cervantes' game come in something akin to the following format:

1. Tell us up front what it is you think is so important.
2. Thumbnail sketch it in slightly more detailed manner.
3. Justify it by providing examples.

This isn't to be draconian, but insisting on examples, etc, should help prevent us from going off half-cocked and also give us material with which to argue and debate.

I'll go first:
I think good spacing is absolutely crucial to playing Cervantes at a high level. Cervantes' tools, while often unsafe, give him the ability to dominate most other characters at appropriate ranges. For example, being ale to maintain proper spacing against Amy (just outside of her throw range) essentially limits her offensive options to things like 33B and 66B for mids, and 1A for lows. The first two can be stepped and provide decent mixup opportunities on block, while the latter move is FC A+B punishable and, on hit, creates mixup situations that are in Cervantes' favor. Spacing, in this instance, completely changes the tenor of the match.

First of all I'd like to say that I don't even really play Cervantes, let alone know anything about high level Cervantes play. I'm only responding because I felt sorry for Hates, who took the time to create this well-written post that nobody even cares to respond to (possibly because, despite his efforts to avoid becoming didactic, he still comes off as rather demanding - he's basically asking for a short, thesis-driven essay).

Anyway, since you're going to eventually have to fight at close range, I think it might be prudent to
talk about his close range game. I find that his close-range pokes usually either have poor hit/block frames (3A+B, 2A+B) or they aren't very devastating if they hit (3K). To compensate for this, he has some wonderful tools while crouched. I'm not going to go too far into detail, because I'm sure everybody here knows how to play his FC game (2A, A+BB, WS K, Throws), but the point is that it's probably one of the most important things he has in his limited repertoire of close-range tools.

 

[Belial]

I think good spacing is absolutely crucial to playing any character at a high level.

fixed it for you

 

[franman]

I'm only responding because I felt sorry for Hates, who took the time to create this well-written post that nobody even cares to respond to (possibly because, despite his efforts to avoid becoming didactic, he still comes off as rather demanding - he's basically asking for a short, thesis-driven essay).

Itz not that, I can't think of anything to write about for the time being. Besides I don't consider myself a high-level player just a competitive player training with pro's. Well here's my thesis based upon my experience.

iGDR is one of Cervy's signature moves that equals punishment to those who are not careful. Though iGDR can be a great tool it has to be used with caution against those who are ready for it (in other words those who are careful).

There are two ways I use iGDR for:

-Limit the player's options: When a player uses a good move that's iGDR punishable I use iGDR to my advantage (unless it's 3B punishable, I use 3B instead). To me it's mainly a good scare tactic, preventing the player from ever using the same move again. That limits to a few other options. Imagine a Chess set where I take away a lot of good pieces.

-Whiff punisher on Situations: Situations such as only whiffs that are iGDR punishable, getting near an edge or getting near a wall. After iGDR I use B2 to ring out or wall splat; otherwise, I just use my regular combo.

Few times I iGDR out of blue hoping for a surprise attack also when I can tell someone is running towards me trying to attack I iGDR him/her before an opening attack.

The bottom line is though iGDR is important, it's not something to be relied on. If someone is prepared for iGDR I wouldn't use it at all unless I've placed the opponent in a situation where he/she least expects it.

 

[Dr. Hates]

Belial: Of course spacing's crucial for any character--I wanted to start by throwing out a softball. That said, I think it's one of THE most important aspects of playing Cervantes properly. The idea with this thread is to find a list of techniques, moves, mental attitudes, you name it, which are most important to the development of effective Cervantes play.

Noface: Short-range Cervantes is interesting to me. I've never played a character this fast before, so getting the most out of up-close tools has been something on which I've self-consciously focused for a while because I considered it a personal weakness. As you mention, setting up crouch stuff is pretty darn important (1K's +1 and crouch is a lot more powerful than the match alone might indicate), but I'd also like to suggest moves like 9K, bK, and 8[B+K] can be very useful at close range, too. They all have evasive properties and are good on hit; 9K is + decent frames, bK grounds 'em, and 8[B+K] guarantees iGDR if you go over an opponent. Working moves like that into up-close brawling seems to make opponents hesitate, which in turn opens up more options for you.

franman: I've come to rely on iGDR more and more as time goes by, but your point about it being potentially risky against opponents who are ready for it is quite well taken. That's actually one of the reasons I use iGDR in combos so often--it serves as a reminder to opponents that it exists. Beyond obvious applications of whiff punishment, simply demonstrating an ability to perform iGDR on command will make many players hesitate at certain ranges. Constant worry about iGDR will tax their mental resources.

Beyond that, however, I also just throw it out when I get the right "feel". It's difficult to explain properly, but I am trying to develop a sense of when opponents will move/duck/try to attack/whatever and will thus eat iGDR. It's not really mathematical, nor is it based on specific mixup scenarios, but instead just an attempt to read how antsy my opponent is. Sounds weird, but it has thus far been effective.

Everyone: Any other thoughts? What about specific moves being important?

 

[Suirad]

I'm pretty half-assed as a pirate player myself, but how about this: What moves should be used to keep spacing?

I noticed that 3A+B was quick, safe, seemed hard to step and pushed back a significant amount. However when I couldn't come up with what to do to keep them out(other than doing 3A+B again if they came closer). What can be used as a significant enough threat to keep opponents from stepping in or does he have that ability?

 

[HajimeOwari]

While I am less concerned about iGDR now due to safer play, I will contribute by saying that if you can effectively prove you can iGDR punish something consistently, you create a good amount of fear and manage to either remove that punishable move from your opponent's game completely, or at least force the opponent to hesitate. Having played Hates in the past, I can safely say that once you get punished by iGDR, you really start to worry about how many "unsafe" moves you can afford to throw out. The other side of the coin is that if I see you fumble at IGDR (I see 1B or other attempts), I know that you're inconsistent and possibly heading towards frustrated play, due to bad execution.

 

[Dr. Hates]

Suirad: I prefer spacing with movement to simply spacing with moves, but there are still options if your opponent is bearing down on you and you want to create distance. 3A+B is good, as you mentioned. 6A is also quite good for that on hit, as is 6K on CH. If you have a bit more time, FC A+BBBBB is effective, and the A+G throw is another useful spacing tool.

You'll want to try as much as possible, though, to achieve good position and then simply maintain it through the use of backstep and the threat of moves like iGDR, 2A+B, aB, etc etc.

 

[GATOR]

I don't know... you can say its pretty important to get your opponent to either 1. start crouching or 2. start holding block down more than they should.

I mean... obviously its universal, but for cervy I feel its even more important because he doesn't really have much to make ppl drop their guard (one of the worse CF games in the game) so that your unsafe moves stop being AS unsafe. If the opponent is just sitting there waiting for you to attack, your gonna get boned cuz cervy isn't the safest character in the game by any means. So you have to keep the opponent from being able to just sit and wait. This means good use of his command throw (but obviously not JUST using it or they'll break it every time if its ALL you use), iFC A+BBBBBBbbb GB for rush down chances, 3A+B (its safe and does well against 8way movement), and 1k (so they actually feel like maybe they have to block low.

Also its important I feel that you get to use your back-turned stance mix-ups which means being able to get into his backstance is important... and finding times to do it where your not at billion frame advantage (they'll just block by reaction..but this isn't ALL bad) or billion frame disadvantage (don't wanna take a shank to the back). Being able to mix up his backturned game well I think is essential because it has such high damage potential with little disadvantage and because it starts to help with breaking down someone's "just block high and wait to react to a 1A" tactic.

I feel iGDR is more important as a "wait... I can't do that against him" tool than an actual move personally. If the opponent gives me the igdr chances then cool... but I just have never liked throwing it out randomly because the advantage/disadvantage is not in your favor NOT as a punish.

As belial said... of course all ppl's spacing is super important. And while you feel its SUPER SUPER important for cervy i'd argue that its ALSO SUPER SUPER important for most of the cast....
Hilde DOES NOT want to be at CLOSE CLOSE range having to always break throws, amy needs to be on you like the hooker she is, Ivy wants you at distance, asty wants you either RIGHT next to him or far away, yoshi doesn't want you too far away, seig NEEDS you at tip range to be his best....... the list goes on through pretty much all the characters ppl would even bother to argue about being in the top 15-20 characters. And the other characters are just too poor for it to be "all that important" a lot of the time. But otherwise of course I agree... i just think a better way of saying it is to just simply say "Its important to be at mid-sword to tip range at all time if possible."

His crouching moves are VERY important to his game... WR A, FC A+BBBBB GB, command throw.. and even WR B for slight adding onto combo damage (and of course 2k is an important poke for almost every character).

and about his (or 9... I use 9..lol) 8[B+K] ... I LOVE this move as a TJ... especially when I KNOW that 2k poke is coming. I love TJ moves for punishment of lows with most of the characters I've mained. And of course, as long as you get the jump over property you've set up a "rushdown" situation where you have a mix-up advantage. On the other hand I hate his jump kick .. but I probably am just spoiled with yoshi's jump kick.

Obviously learning what is punishable by FC A+B, WR A, 3B, iGDR, aB, etc is very important. In any game obviously its important to maximize your damage. And it messes with the opponent more and more the harder and the more ways they see you can punish their moves.

i..don't know what else to say.. lol

 

[Dr. Hates]

Thanks, GATOR!

When you say getting into BT at medium advantage, what precise situations do you mean? I actually have a lot of success with getting BT after ending combos in iGDR 28B. The smartest option for an opponent there is to lay on the ground and eat a free poke or two, but even the best players eventually get annoyed with giving you an extra 10-15 damage tacked onto everything and try to guess through your mixups, which causes them a lot of pain.

 

[Nofacekill3r]

Ivy wants you at distance

Nah all her damage/mixups are at point blank range. I think it's best just to harass at long range with WP 6B+K2_8, WP 3A, etc to get them to come closer to you. I mean, sometimes she has to play distance games but generally she's weaker than the characters who were actually meant for it (i.e Hilde, Sieg, etc.). Anyway that is totally off topic, sorry. XD

 

[docvizzo]

This is my contribution to this thread, nothing more to say:

Im a pirate!

 

[Dr. Hates]

Holy shit, doc...

 

[BatousaiNori]

Cervantes at high level play to me:

-Consistent combos: I can nail iGDR 70% of the time. I normally do 3B, gun, iGDR. However, in a tournament, I will do 3B, gun, 3A+B just to be safe and stay on top of them, so I can continue to be on offense and dictate the match. I always go for combos I have mastered instead of new ones.

-Reliable setups: I try to always think to myself "Would this setup work on the best player?". I whore out 1K. That's what works for me. Do I want to take a chance w/44B after? Or do I want to do the safe thing if I know they have a habit to attack and simply just hold guard? I, like many Cervantes players, will duck if I'm facing a wall. Let's be honest, we all love WS A to 4KK near a wall. Especially on stages where you get wall, 3B CH, gun and easy RO. I try to play it safe w/setups. I try not to take too many risks.

-Try to go for the damage, not the mixup: I usually do B throw, DC K. I love the mixups. If you lay there, 3B on the ground. If you get up, 2K. If you get up and duck like a moron, BT B+K. Most will roll away if they know the Pirate. You now have them running from you on the ground, so again, you maintain the flow of the match.

-From what I hear from Agustin/DevilJim/ChickenWing, I play extremely similar to Hates (considering he taught me quite a few things in this game, I'm not surprised) so I know I'm doing the right things. I still do WS A to 44KK, Wall, 3B, 214B+K. I don't know any good wall combos after 4KK:(

-Pokes are VERY important. Don't forget your 2K/6A/2A/3K/K. You can also see how patient a player is w/pokes. Do they panic when you mix them up (mashing 2A/evade move/attacking when they should not)? Do they remain patient? Or are they TOO patient and let you do whatever you want and are scared?

-At high level, I always start out the match backing up. For the first round, I'm going to be very defensive until I figure out exactly how they play. Do they whiff like crazy? Are they unsafely aggressive? Do they like to turtle? You can get so many questions answered in the first round if you just play careful.

That's all I got, hope this helps somebody

 

[franman]

I still do WS A to 44KK, Wall, 3B, 214B+K. I don't know any good wall combos after 4KK:(

How much dmg is that wall combo?

For me instead of finishing off with a 214B+K I do CH3B JF Shot 2B+K. Now if the JF gunshot doesn't wall splat the opponent I would go for 11_77B or 44K.

But I think the best wall combo damage-wise is Hates' instead of CH3B 214B+K or my CH3B JF Shot 2B+K he does BBB I think itz around 80 dmg.

 

[BatousaiNori]

For wall, I found some video from a long time ago and like this combo:

WS A to 4K, K, Wall, BT BK JF, 66B, 66B (depends on where you are on the wall to get another). Still good damage and wake up

 

[Zasalamel79]

Wall is very important for Cervantes atleast that what i think.

(whichever floats your boat) +(wall) ~ +~ WS~ (wall) ~ BT +( i believe this hits wall again, if not or so test out the next move) ~ ~ ~ + (x2) ~ followed by or iGDR or

That does rougly 125 dmg from the last time i did it. There are other ways to change it, been a while since i used it.

Also if someone could try this +(wall) ~ +~ WS~ (wall) ~ BT + ~ + ~ WS ~ (wall) ~ ~

again should be around 125 dmg ( starting with full armor cause this will break armor) and you have to start at a slight angle face your opponent to the wall, but corner is excellent. Mammoth graveyard excellent spot to test.

also doc where did u ge tthat south park version of Cervantes.

 

[franman]

I'm not sure if this would fit into high-level play, but to me I think 22_88K is the best auto-gi for Cervy's defense arsenal.

From a technical standpoint 22_88K auto-gi's anything that moves horizontally. So any weapons that move horizontally and kicks that move horizontally. There's a special situation where against certain characters it auto-gi's non-horizontal pokes. An instance would be Vader's 1B (@ i14).

The frame window ranges from ~9 to 17 frames.

I use this auto-gi against 2A whores by simply baiting them with pokes and forcing them to retaliate. Sometimes itz character specific like if I know a Lizardman player or Ivy player dashes in with 66A @ the start of the battle then I use it.

 

[babalook]

hates so when you are at the most comfortable range what do you do at that point just sit and wait for them to do something stupid and whif punish. Oh and I do WR A 4KK 66B 22/88B iGDR 28B i like the back turned mixup and it does good dmg, or if i feel they may tech i do 3B:B on them while there in the air from 22/88B so another wall combo can start. I also think the FC GB is his best spacer but its bad to use if your opponent is real poky but there style normally can be beat with patients.