How to be jolly in Jolly

Synraii

[14] Master
Gotta admit, I've only skimmed page 1 so forgive me if this has been brought up, but 3K and WS K seem to be getting little attention for what they are...
 

Wid0maker

[10] Knight
I personally like WR K (TC and TJ with decent range and safety), and have been working on perfecting iWS K...as any SCIV Sieg player can attest, iWR attacks can be quite important to your overall gameplan.
 

ZUZU

[10] Knight
3K and WSK are undeniably good moves. Though I believe that this thread focuses more on the usability of moves that are specific to JS.
 

Synraii

[14] Master
Well, sure but I can't see JS play being remotely viable without them, that's the only reason I brought them up, lol.
.as any SCIV Sieg player can attest, iWR attacks can be quite important to your overall gameplan.
Unless your biggest rival plays a complete bitch (the evil kind) of a Xianghua and punishes you all day for it lol.
EH, HYRUL?
 

Wid0maker

[10] Knight
Unless your biggest rival plays a complete bitch (the evil kind) of a Xianghua and punishes you all day for it lol. EH, HYRUL?
lol this is true, Xianghua was one of my most hated match-ups in SCIV as Sieg. I really hated her 44B -_-...but back on topic, even though WSK and 3K are usable by JS and GS, they're both definitely essential. I just wish they left 3K's SCIV properties...it caused TC on CH iirc...I don't remember if it did on NH though. Oh well...still good moves!
 

sillycatsteven

[09] Warrior
idk.... still not convinced about the usage of JS66bBE. the change rate is about 33%~50% if we take the 50% that means on average you are doing about 60 damage (i think). the chance of 2x mood swing is pitiful even pre-patch. doing a naked CE deals about that much. therefore i still much prefer using 66B, 4A, 4K than using 66B, 66bBE and possible followup. and just safe the CE.

making a vid would be awesome. sorry can't provide any physically help... not in USA. but a good thing to put in is the various mood swing moves and when they can be safely and easily used to maximize change.

i think all of JS WR moves are great, which is very rare to see in a character. the WRK has TC and TJ (as people have mentioned), tho linear. WRB can add stun and go into UDA which can mood swing. WRA has got great reach and anti-SS.
 

Wandrian

I don't know.
Thinking of making a video guide or compilation of Jolly Side Tira. If anyone is thinking the same thing we could share ideas of what could be in it. Also if anyone has a decent capture card to create the video itself that would be great. Some of the stuff mentioned here could be easily presented for new Tira players or Jolly Side skeptics.

Will include: Tech Traps, Changed Persona instances, Wall Combos, Setups, Wakeups, gimmicks and anti-x character/matchups.
Oh, I'd definitely be interested in that if everyone can come to an agreement on what would absolutely need to be in it. I can't record in HD and editing video is a bitch with my crappy software, but I'd definitely be interested in it. I can do 480p and no better, here's some crappy examples:

Me being lucky with input lag against Violent Vodka
Tutorial on an exploit in a glitchtastic single player game
Demonstrating weapons in Dienasty Warriors
What happens when one team just doesn't try in a shooter
 

Age_of_Truth

[12] Conqueror
I said my rival, not yours.
I was just JOSHing with you HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHA

I did good again with Tira today, but ShinJin's Cervantes was too strong, so I had to switch. But she's still really great I think.

On topic, 3K is good but I don't think great cos damage is low and it's -ve even on hit. But TJ, range and speed are nice. WR K is definitely a really powerful move.

Problem Tira's got is all these moves are only short-mid range, meaning you HAVE to use JS 66AA. But it's actually pretty fantastic (match-up dependant). The threat of it makes even JS Tira decent (though obviously you have to choose your moments wisely).
 

sillycatsteven

[09] Warrior
The threat of it makes even JS Tira decent (though obviously you have to choose your moments wisely).
I think this is true for most JS moves (well, you have to choose more wisely than other characters).

I was playing around online over the weekend, and found that UD is very useful if the opponent is predictable esp at the start of the match. most people have a accustomed match starter. its generally back step or forward attack or sidestep. if you just UD behind them and then just throw, most of the time they'll be too surprised to turn or break the throw. of course, it only really works the first time... the good thing is UD would usually dodge a lot of the attack they use or jump behind them even if they do step.

EDIT:
Just make sure you actually land behind them.... XD
 

Countee

[09] Warrior
JS 66B BE still getting no love? I still find myself using it a lot. Is there some better option to keep people from just rolling around on the ground after a knock down when you are in Jolly Side? I like having something that picks them up for possible good damage and guaranteed continued pressure myself.
 

sillycatsteven

[09] Warrior
JS 66B BE still getting no love? I still find myself using it a lot. Is there some better option to keep people from just rolling around on the ground after a knock down when you are in Jolly Side? I like having something that picks them up for possible good damage and guaranteed continued pressure myself.
well... i suppose that's one good use for it.... but isn't it still a waste of gauge? tho, i don't think there's a better option in JS.

EDIT: maybe 6A+B works? how about 6AB and hope that the B tracks and gives a CH launch? need to test this out...
 

sillycatsteven

[09] Warrior
After studying Shining Decopon's Evo vids, i finally came to realize the "secret" about Tira: don't use JS, which pretty much makes this thread (and some of the nerfs in 1.02) obsolete. i was really hoping that Namco would give us a more balanced Tira, with a slightly better (low-mid) JS or having the two moods with two different playstyles, because i really want to use a bipolar character. But it's obvious now that to use her well, you have to really actively control her mood to be (almost) constantly in GS. now i'm really torn between playing her the way i want to, or playing her in a way to maximize my chance of winning.

anyway enough whining, here's the conclusion i arrived at after watching the vids.
there are three main moves to use in JS:
1) 236 k BE - for mood swing, so try to always save 0.5 bar at all time.
2) 2A - for fast poke and interrupt. 6B might also work, but it doesn't track.
3) taunt - for mood swing when there's some distance between the characters. if opponent rushes in, cancel to 236 k BE or other moves (maybe 3B or 66B).

other moves to remember:
1) WS B ~ UD - for gaining meter and UD A can mood swing too. a good choice after Tira being grounded.
2) WS K - fast and unexpected
- also remember iWS is a good choice.
3) 11_77 B - for CH combo CH 11_77B, ~GS BT B+K, 44B or 666B. mood swing and decent damage. alternatively, it's also an interesting setup for throw on hit.

JS strategy is mainly focused around getting to GS or poke + meter gaining. Tira usually starts in the match in JS, so try to chip away the opponent's health as much as possible during the beginning of the first match and wait for the health-dependent auto-switch. This is mainly because you don't have meter for 236 k BE or spacing for taunt. the main goal for the first round (if you start in JS) is not to win (it'll be nice if you can), the main goal is to save as much meter and get to GS. Tira usually doesn't have good chance of winning the first round because of the difficulty of getting to JS in first round, but if you can chip away enough health from opponent, then there's a better chance of taking the first round once GS is unleashed. If you happen to drop back to JS at later rounds, use taunt or taunt cancel -> 236k BE to try to get back to GS asap (you normally get only one chance for this). however, if your health is near or below 50% (but before auto change), then it's better to stay in JS and just wait for the auto-switch. similarly, when in GS, if you are getting close or below 50% health (but before auto change), then use GS 666B to get to JS and then wait for the auto switch back to GS. as a side note, GS 66B or GS 44B should be used instead of GS 666B unless Tira is near or below 50% health (but before auto change) or when the opponent can be killed with GS 666B.

Finally, after winning a match there's enough time for a taunt then 236 k BE. most of the time taunt can change Tira back to GS but with 236 k BE, getting to GS is almost guaranteed. for those who don't know, if you use BE or CE after round ends, you don't actually use any gauge.

Thoughts? Comments? Criticisms?

Thank you Shining Decopon for lighting the way.
 

Age_of_Truth

[12] Conqueror
JS 2A and 6B are not at all fast pokes/interrupts.

How much time you have to do A+B, 236K BE or taunt at the end of a round depends on what move you used to KO.
 

Wandrian

I don't know.
JS 2A is a piece of shit, honestly. If it was as fast as GS 2A it'd be worth using, but it's a bit too slow :/

6B has good range by Tira standards, but it's not very good otherwise IMO.

JS 4B has a niche use in snuffing out some of Natsu's attacks though, the hitboxes for it are just weird enough to work occasionally. Maybe it'd be useful against lolDevil Jin too, who knows?


WS B is a huge risk against anyone even remotely familiar with Tira, and the UD A persona shift out of WS BK was nerfed as well so that's not the best tactic out there to use. It may work, but it seems to have a really low chance of working compared to vanilla UD A or 9K CH UD A. If you *CAN* get WS BK to hit though, you can use JS 66bA+B+K if you have enough meter. I forget if you can combo JS BT B+K B after that or not :/

Oh, and WS K? I swear every decent player I bump online into JGs this like nothing else. Probably due to its speed, they're anticipating a fast high/mid attack and can JG it on prediction accordingly without too much difficulty. And then the ones that aren't JG'ing it are sidestepping it :/
 

sillycatsteven

[09] Warrior
WS B is a huge risk against anyone even remotely familiar with Tira
But that's the point... how many people are even remotely familiar with Tira.... even the top 8 in Evo final are getting caught out by basic Tira strategies. admittedly, the way those strategies are implemented is also important, but there's no excuse for running into a WS B after Tira's getting up and (from earlier discussions) being caught out by JS BT B+K B.

JS is just a phase. the point of getting to JS is so you can get out of it, and don't be stuck in it later down the track. it's better to prevent, then trying to win from lower health with JS or scrambling to change to JS after the auto-switch. i'd always just take things as they come, so it never occurred to me to use GS 666B to change back to JS, anticipating the auto switch later down the line. i just thought: i want to use both sides without focusing on any particular side. but that's clearly not how Tira's meant to be used, despite earlier speculations after patch 1.02.

also, maybe we should exploit the use of 7_8_9 B.... i just realized that the jump -> land -> attack sequence can catch many people out because the jump may fool opponents into rushing in, thinking that Tira made an input mistake. it probably should only be used once in a blue moon and only when there's just the right amount of spacing, but making them fear a jumping Tira doesn't actually accomplish anything....

also, is there any validity in mind game involving taunt with JS? it's awesome that JS is the only character where taunt actually has a legit use mid-battle!
 

Wandrian

I don't know.
WS B is a slow, phenomenally risky gimmick. Anyone that falls for it has only themselves to blame. Relying on character ignorance of your foe to gain victory is a scrub thought; it may carry you against Joe Dumbass online but against actual competition reliance on it is a massive weakness: it'd be like playing Astaroth and dealing Leixia damage with Ezio-caliber combos and oki. *shudder*

Jump attacks are also pretty gimmicky without solid reads. All of Tira'saerial attacks have niche uses, but they're really still gimmicks.

Taunting and unblockable cancels as mindfuckery is valid with any character. I can't imagining it working if your opponent isn't feeling pressured or nervous, though. I've got a few folks on my FL that love trying to pull that on me and as awful as I am and how badly those individuals body me, it never works on me. That's just to point out how it's not a gurantee, it's a gamble like anything else you can do. And after Decopwn's abuse of taunting in the EVO grand finals, anyone that's seen it will be thinking "lolol this tool thinks he's Decopon, I'ma block or use a fast attack while taunts and buffers an attack!"
 

sillycatsteven

[09] Warrior
Taunting and unblockable cancels as mindfuckery is valid with any character.
alright, more valid for Tira due the the pressure of GS damage. also, even though you do see unblockable cancels once in a while, how many people actually use taunt cancel? other characters' taunts don't actually apply any real pressure, unlike UB or Tira's taunt in JS. for me, it isn't mindfuckery if all i need to do is stand and guard regardless whether opponent taunt cancel or not.