How to be jolly in Jolly

Wandrian

I don't know.
Speed and safety of attacks, IMO. Just about everything Jolly has going for her is slower and less safe than anything Gloomy has to offer, so we've either got to be more poke/punish/defense oriented or find a safe way to mess with their heads until we get a chance to really hurt them.

Jolly's spacing options are basically 22*88B, 6B, Updraft, and 66AA right? Everything except 66A/66AA is fairly safe, Updraft is pesky to characters lacking a way to hit something directly above them but countering the attacks after it is pretty easy for anyone not braindead. Not very good IMO.
 

Age_of_Truth

[12] Conqueror
Not having a generic i13 2A is a real bitch with JS Tira, especially because her 2K is linear. It makes it more difficult to fight at close range, especially in near-neutral situations.
 

Cynergy

[09] Warrior
Hrmm, she does still have FC A in Jolly, so a workaround is using iFC A to interrupt. Although the extra frame or so to go to FC might not make it much quicker than just 2B or 2K.
 

sillycatsteven

[09] Warrior
as an aside, not having a generic i13 2A is exactly why i thought 2AB being a NC would be a good idea....

...
Aside from mood changes and combos. What is the most difficult in JS?

Is it zoning? Spacing? Making an offense outside of combos? Mind games? Dealing with close range characters?

Whats the main problem aside from getting to GS.

Simplify the problems and lets work on the main problem then work on the minor ones.
i say all of the above. but the problems can be summarized as: sub-par mediocrity.

JS should be like a Jack of all trades. using fast attack against slow but powerful characters and use slower and stronger attacks against fast but less damaging characters. However, in reality her fast attacks are not fast enough or do enough damage against strong character, ie they don't get interrupted as easily and they can kill Tira in much less amount of time than Tira can (eg, 3 combos/attacks vs Tira's 5~10). on the other hand, JS's slower and stronger attacks/combos isn't that much more damaging than the faster characters.

it doesn't help that her zoning and spacing is also sub-par mediocrity. JS's longest range moves other than UD is WR A, 66AA and 6B. best push back is 22_88B. each have their own faults and are not as good as the zoning or spacing tools of some characters. what's worse, is that she doesn't have good enough tools to break the zoning of these characters. so again you run into the problem of zoning tools don't work well against non-zoning characters but you also lack the tools to break the zoning of zoning characters. I'm not saying it's impossible, but you have to work very hard. this is also bad when fighting close range characters because she can't really zone them out either.

as for mind games, she lacks good/unique mix ups. there are various tactics you can employee but most don't have good risk:reward ratio (eg, WRBK mix up). you really only have the generic throw/attack type mix up. this is esp true after the nerfing of 66bBE switch chance, which took out a fearsome mix up on wake. the best you can rely on is probably, as suggested by MnT77, doing something so stupid that the opponents don't really expect. Thought that's also arguable and often don't have good risk:reward and can only really work that odd few times.

as a side note, Ivy is a much better Jack of all trade than JS. She seemed mediocre in every area, and her snake sword can cover short and long distance. Therefore a smart Ivy can often find the weakness in the opponent and exploit it. JS on the other hand is slightly too weak to exploit their weakness as easily.


Feel free to disagree. I know I may not know Tira as well as some people here.

btw i'm actully beginning to think that the right way to use Tira is to defend and use 4K and A+B as much as possible in JS. then once that triggers a switch, deal as much damage as possible with 3B or 4BBB launcher then do the same again when you are back in JS. the gauge should be saved mainly for GI and CE for when you are desperately needing a mood swing (in JS) or the extra damage (in GS). even though 236kBE is a very good move, but it might be better to save the gauge when you are really in trouble (GI or JS CE) or needing to win the round (GI or CE).
 

optymuss

[12] Conqueror
First off i would like to thank you for summarizing the problems and yes i do disagree, but i do see your perspective, as i hear 24/7 by many people.......even outside this website......

JS should be like a Jack of all trades. using fast attack against slow but powerful characters and use slower and stronger attacks against fast but less damaging characters.
yes, i see.

However, in reality her fast attacks are not fast enough or do enough damage against strong character, ie they don't get interrupted as easily and they can kill Tira in much less amount of time than Tira can (eg, 3 combos/attacks vs Tira's 5~10)
JS isn't made to be offensive and pressure based (the type of offense and pressure we know of), its made to be a catalyst for GS and a defensive tool to keep the opponent at bay by causing hesitation and frustration via zoning and keep away, and also limiting the options the opponent has.

The reason why JS is easily killed is probably because people treat JS as the offensive type, she is offensive but in a specific way. She can pressure the opponent, but its not the type of pressure we are familiar with: SG damage, health damage, etc.

Have noticed that most of JS's tools are actually slow, or i guess not as rewarding in general up at close range? moves like 3A, 4A, 4B, 1K, and others are the moves i am referring to because they are very situational and only used sparingly.

However, looking at moves like 66K, 6A, 6B, 66AA, 1B, 22_88B, 22_88A, 44B, 6K, and others that zone and have an advancing step. These moves tend to be used more....

this means that JS is more effective at mid-long range because she can get through an offense more by TCs and TJs at mid to long range and also can be more of a threat when tryng to advance. (im half asleep so just correct me and i will make it more clear)

On the other hand, JS's slower and stronger attacks/combos isn't that much more damaging than the faster characters.
refer to first comment.

it doesn't help that her zoning and spacing is also sub-par mediocrity. JS's longest range moves other than UD is WR A, 66AA and 6B. best push back is 22_88B. each have their own faults and are not as good as the zoning or spacing tools of some characters.
what move doesn't have a fault in this game? Name any move in the game and i can tell you its flaws.

take note that zoning is highly different from spacing. Zoning is using moves to push back away the opponent or set a position by spacing them or something on the lines of that, it is an offensive option.

Spacing, as said previously, can be used by moves....BUT its the defensive characteristic that the move grants by pushing them away, positioning them, etc and in exchange limiting their offense and any other options. Movement is also associated with this and i am sure that you all realize how good Tira's movement is.

anyway establishing spacing/zoning can be made in so many different ways:

1) The old school push away option via a move that has push back...this method is still effective but it now carries risk due to movement being limited because of its increased window and the disadvantage from the move. Ex: you use 1B (-8 on block) and you are forced to block an i15 or faster move. A smart opponent would try to set up force blocks and deal SG damage since they are at a distance......you will block because of being vulnerable to i15 moves and deal with force blocks from slow moves that deal good SG damage, however if the opponent abuses this you get a mix up of either sidestepping (because most mid range moves that deal SG damage are linear), back stepping, JG, or just turtling.

2) starting a spacing game from blocking an opponents move that has push back . Ex: Alpha does 6B at tip range, you then back step and can avoid all of his punishing options including FC 3a:B and barely miss being hit by his CE. oh,and alpha 6B has a lot of push back on block...and he cant really deal with that well if you play safe and waste his meter. This method is character specific and to make it more of a threat you have to have a health advantage. Most people say that JS has a bad punishing game. If she does then back step when at mid range, especially when blocking a move that gives spacing and is -11, instead of giving yourself a disadvantage by retaliating. (just an idea)

3) setting up force blocks on the opponent after blocking a move that creates distance or just has long range. Ex: you block alpha 33B and then retaliate with 1B in order to create a lot of distance. 1B can be JGed or the opponent will retaliate after blocking in order to stop you form a spacing game by movement. However, the opponent will use an advancing horizontal or set up a move that wont allow you to move because of your disadvantage, an i15 move because of Tira 1B being -8 on block. However if your opponent knows your going to set up a force block and they freeze up, you can instead use better moves like 6B.

4) The more offensive option is killing their movement (mainly sidestep). JS is VERY effective at this; 66AA being i18 can make the opponent fear stepping at long range, its even more of a threat because side stepping has an i21 window. 6A is of course is best because its more safe, but its a high. JS can kill movement very well which makes the opponent use advancing and retreating options when your at a disadvantage or when they are at a slight disadavantage and can make her easily set up force blocks with 6B, 1B, and maybe even 66B if your opponent thinks they can just walk right into close range or bait you by back stepping when you have the health advantage.

overall, methods 2 and 4 are best for JS because it fits her design. 1 is based on mind games/mix ups and 3 is based on being calm and guess patient and observing what the opponent does (another mind game/mix up one).

However, everything can be mixed up, it really depends on the player.

what's worse, is that she doesn't have good enough tools to break the zoning of these characters.......you also lack the tools to break the zoning of zoning characters. I'm not saying it's impossible.
If your referring to 66B to 66AA range then this is what you want in JS because you get to transition via A+B, which relatively safe if the opponent tries to retaliate while back stepping (when you see a back step at 66B range go for A+B, its just an idea, try it out and see how it goes.) Whats funny is that some players think of this as a stupid idea, but it isn't. Your thinking ahead and can easily turn the match into your favor especially if its the 1st or 2nd round and you successfully transition into GS.


as for mind games, she lacks good/unique mix ups. there are various tactics you can employee but most don't have good risk:reward ratio (eg, WRBK mix up). you really only have the generic throw/attack type mix up. this is esp true after the nerfing of 66bBE switch chance, which took out a fearsome mix up on wake. the best you can rely on is probably, as suggested by MnT77, doing something so stupid that the opponents don't really expect. Thought that's also arguable and often don't have good risk:reward and can only really work that odd few times.
To make it short and simple: Every character has mind games and mix ups....its just up to how the player utilizes the tools the character has. Aside from that, i have actually given you a few ideas.

A 2K and 2B is a simple mid/low mix up and its disadvantage is being stepped, which is were FC A or AA come into play. every mix up has a hole, just find a way around it by adapting.

as a side note, Ivy is a much better Jack of all trade than JS. She seemed mediocre in every area, and her snake sword can cover short and long distance. Therefore a smart Ivy can often find the weakness in the opponent and exploit it. JS on the other hand is slightly too weak to exploit their weakness as easily.
um your comparing a whole character to a half a character...so yeah. Anyway ivy whip moves aren't really a threat....if she breaks your guard at long range then well, she doesn't get much damage. Her whip moves are only meant to make a decent offense if the opponent tries to space in order to avoid her throw game. Ivy naturally has low damage output, the developers have stated that her core damage is in using her meter which can be canceled by forcing her to GI, and are all mainly close range moves. Ivy is VERY different from Tira and when referring to the ways they apply spacing/zoning its still VERY different.

hope that gave you some ideas. if i wasn't clear on anything just tell me. Just trying to help,
 

sillycatsteven

[09] Warrior
very helpful thanks! it does clear up my question about the difference between zoning and spacing.

but i have to disagree partly with your assessment of JS being more effective mid-long range. you are correct that JS has more mid range tools than short or long range tools, but it doesn't make JS a good mid-long range stance.

what i'm trying to say is that i feel JS can do a lot of things, but can't do them well (which is understandable and expected). but the problem is: against characters that are weak in certain areas, even though JS has the tools to exploit that weakness, those tools feels lacking even for a Jack of all trade.

and this all just bring me back to my original problem about JS ever since 1.01:
where is JS 's strength?
JS zoning/spacing tools and range can not compare with some characters, but JS strength is mainly in mid-long range. this means at close range, JS suffers against fast short range types, and has to work to get the proper zoning/spacing. against longer range characters that JS can't out zone/space , JS can't deal enough damage or pressure at close range.

maybe you are right about JS being a "transitional" stance, which is why i suggested that we should just focus on the use of 4K and A+B in JS. but this made me wonder about why Namco patched Tira the way they did in 1.02, because the patch made it seems like Namco wants us to play both sides of Tira without focusing on one particular stance. maybe they just don't want us to switch to GS so easily....


EDIT:
Hey... guys... did you know JS 3B, (66), 4K is a combo (you have to tap 66 or 6 between 3B and 4K). does 39 damage. only combos at close range tho. the max range is about the push back of blocked JS3B. but the important thing is, if you get mood swing you can do JS 3B, (66), 4K, GS 666B. non BE version does 80+, BE version does 90+.
 

sillycatsteven

[09] Warrior
You can do it even without 66, just delay 4K a little.
you can?? i'd actually tried that but didn't work... maybe didn't delay it long enough. the good thing about using 66 is that you can extend the range a little bit more.
it seem to work on all characters. Aeon, Nightmare and Hilde seem to be slightly more difficult to do, but not by a lot. Nightmare for some reason doesn't work if you are very very close to him.

But.. But... cutting your combos short in JS is bad you said!
lol that's the best you can come up with!! XD i'm disappointed..... tho i am glad at least one person remembers stuff i said. even though i may be wrong!! not saying i am wrong of course, Silly Cat is always right!! ^_^
jokes aside 3B, 66AA is two moves, 3B, 4K is two moves, that's not cutting it short!! XD plus the damage difference is less than 10, i'd say it's a very good trade off.
after discussing here i realized that i had misunderstood when you say "cutting combos short". but i've now come to realize that most combos finishes with 4K is on-par with with the same version using other finishes. therefore, it's not cutting it short, it playing for a chance without much penalty. if you factor into the extra damage you'll do if you get a switch and the extra advantage in GS, there is almost no risk in finishing with 4K but it nets a big reward.
good 4K combos:
1K, 4K
3B, (66), 4K (only at close range, can be escape by air controlling back if they are further away)
66B, 4A, 4K

one is off a decent low.
two off launcher.
3B is slightly slower than most other 3Bs but only by a frame or so
66B is a slow launcher, but can give you more damage.
if you get persona change you can combo 666B for big damage.
 

Theautophobia

[08] Mercenary
I have to say, you do best with Tira in Jolly when trying to confuse the enemy.
One thing you must avoid is a pattern. She's slow enough that you can actually see patterns quite quickly.
Obviously the only thing she can do is a bunch of short combos in jolly to deal damage, everything it adds up quickly.

A lot of things are fair game aside from 7,8 or 9 B (unless you are some sort of clairvoyant, I've got use out of it literally 1 time and it was by accident it's a terrible move that used to be her signature of sorts in the passed to games)
For instance using an ordinary string that has a punishing point in it and using 4K or 7,8 or 9K (on counter it leads to updraft, try to use updraft then A while in combos, apparently A can lead to a mood change, it was news to me and it does about 5 less damage?

The non BE version of 236K is surprisingly effect as a low after the enemy has fallen because it has a surprising amount of distance, but of course very sparingly.

4B+K B. Honestly not that good of a move, but people who attempt to punish the second hit will usually be pleasantly surprised by a counter hit and stun, which can be followed up by the 66B BE(yes even the non CH version that knocks them pretty far, improvise with a small step forward on smaller characters) or 236K BE.

Her unblock-able has a surprisingly wide horizontal hit box.

Learning when you can use B+K in either form looks like it'll be pretty important when people get used to her and for those that try to throw you from Jolly's version will be shocked when you use the A+B follow up leading to a CH and stun and you in the gloomy form, aka a combo.

Just guarding feels like Tira might NEED it soon(yeah its useful to everyone but she's already at a distinct disadvantage). Her move set in jolly is almost depressing but you've simply GOT to keep varying up your play, just guarding is a tool that always will be helpful. Even online I fought a mitsu/yoshi who could consistently do it at 3-5 bars. It's entirely possible.

4K. It really stops people from interrupting you with the same "string" of moves. sparingly still, keep in mind it damages you, counter hit is preferred.

11, 33B (may not be the correct input, its when she kneels down on one knee and goes immediately to the second move of 6AB) on counter hit, it launches behind her, follow up with the usual. Use sparingly as it's a bit punishable IIRC.

It may not need to be said but AA and BB. they are king in this game, for everyone and especially with the ever creeping threat of the guard guage.




It's probably common knowledge/repeated stuff, but hey we need to use it, because they certainly don't seem to care.
Keep an open mind because that move you and every other Tira doesn't use is sometimes the one that you can add to throw the opponent off their game.
 

sillycatsteven

[09] Warrior
Keep an open mind because that move you and every other Tira doesn't use is sometimes the one that you can add to throw the opponent off their game.
lol, so once every 5 games, we should just run up to them and JS A+B?? not recklessly of course, strategic recklessness.
XD

btw, I don't recommend using JS 66b BE... the switch on hit is probably worse than 50:50 and the damage is pitiful. it's better to just use JS CE. on average you use the same amount of gauge for the switch and you do more damage with a RO possibility and no self-RO

EDIT:
wait... does JS CE does RO right? or does only GS CE RO??
 

Theautophobia

[08] Mercenary
lol, so once every 5 games, we should just run up to them and JS A+B?? not recklessly of course, strategic recklessness.
XD

btw, I don't recommend using JS 66b BE... the switch on hit is probably worse than 50:50 and the damage is pitiful. it's better to just use JS CE. on average you use the same amount of gauge for the switch and you do more damage with a RO possibility and no self-RO

EDIT:
wait... does JS CE does RO right? or does only GS CE RO??
Maybe you guys are faring a lot better then me, but shockingly surprise tactics like that work. The ce I dig but I prefer just using 4k when I want a ce. IIRC the distance from 4B+K B, may not allow a full ce to connect, unless its counterhit.
With what they've done you have to either perfect your game to levels unseen, understand every match-up extensively and understand your counters to a very fine level or be fully vested in the luck based recklessness that tira is meant to be.
We are literally bashing our heads against samurais in order to change our mood while fighting, I think a random move strategicaly placed here and there is fitting.
 

sillycatsteven

[09] Warrior
right... forgot about the push back.

We are literally bashing our heads against samurais in order to change our mood while fighting...
^ lol awesome comment!
which is very true. i'm beginning to find tagging 4K at the end of combos as much as possible really helps. still not as good as pre-1.02 or as good as most other characters, but it really does help. i don't like to use 4K outside combos because i always feel unsafe. it seems to me that they can usually shake the stun faster than Tira shakes her headache.
 

Violent Vodka

Pick Your Poison
JS 4K = -7 on hit, which is dumb, but whatever. Just get used to guarding after it, even though A.A will beat most people's attacks 'cause they're stupid. The pretty small chance at a change for good damage makes up for it.
 

sillycatsteven

[09] Warrior
it'll be better if you can shake the headache like a shakeable stun. damn... forgot to mention that as a future patch suggestion. anyway, back to JS 4K, maybe use it to bait a jG?
i still prefer using it in combos. namely, (1) 1K 4K, (2) 3B 4K, (3) 66B 4A 4K. just feels safer. i'm fairly certain GS 666B combos after all those if there is a switch.
 

Wandrian

I don't know.
JS 66B and JS 66bA+B+K are great for combos...Just, y'know, worthless by themselves. Even without a persona shift we've still got BT 2B and depending on previous attacks maybe even JS BT B+K B for followups. Then if we do get persona shift in the combo we've got some major pain to dish out.

Same goes for 4 B+K B. Nigh useless outside of combos, great in them :D


The more I think about it, the only thing with JS that's continually bothering me(save for the bad frames) is the lack of an instant 8WR move that hits low. Maybe we should just always try and make ourselves jolly rather than gloomy? I mean, as opposed to being like Tira. Happy sadism is better than angry, emo sadism...right?
 

sillycatsteven

[09] Warrior
JS 66B and JS 66bA+B+K are great for combos...Just, y'know, worthless by themselves. Even without a persona shift we've still got BT 2B and depending on previous attacks maybe even JS BT B+K B for followups. Then if we do get persona shift in the combo we've got some major pain to dish out.

Same goes for 4 B+K B. Nigh useless outside of combos, great in them :D
true... but JS 66B, 4A, 4K does about the same as JS 66B, 66bBE, BT2K_BTB+K B and doesn't use meter, which is also about the same for the persona shifted version. i still think you'll get more damage over all if you save the gauge for CE.

The more I think about it, the only thing with JS that's continually bothering me(save for the bad frames) is the lack of an instant 8WR move that hits low.
i really don't get the (relatively) bad frames for Tira, is the character states in character select more like an imprecise guide than an actual measurement of the characters?

Maybe we should just always try and make ourselves jolly rather than gloomy? I mean, as opposed to being like Tira. Happy sadism is better than angry, emo sadism...right?
unless you're an emo... or are just into that sort of stuff.... XD
 

Wandrian

I don't know.
I think it's the place in the middle of combos rather than as the start that matters for JS 66bA+B+K. It's pretty damn hard to use it to start a combo, but it can provide some really really nasty extensions if you get a persona shift and all. You've got whatever led up to JS 66bA+B+K then the possibility of GS B+K into GS 666B/GS 666bA+B+K. That's not shabby at all. And hell, you could always end up in a JS 66bA+B+K ~ GS B+K loop to boot. It's not the most efficient use of meter out there by any means(lol god no it isn't), but it is more guaranteed damage when it happens.

Even if that leaves you without meter and still in JS, you've just seriously hurt your foe and probably made them a bit nervous about their prospects of overcoming all that health they lost. Sounds good to me.


sillcatsteven said:
i really don't get the (relatively) bad frames for Tira, is the character states in character select more like an imprecise guide than an actual measurement of the characters?
Seems like that's what they were going for to me. Tira's more difficult to use than most characters due to Jolly and her persona shifts, but in Gloomy she's above average in most aspects...Just a sort of simplified explanation of what to expect from characters you're unfamiliar with, I guess.
 

ZUZU

[10] Knight
Thinking of making a video guide or compilation of Jolly Side Tira. If anyone is thinking the same thing we could share ideas of what could be in it. Also if anyone has a decent capture card to create the video itself that would be great. Some of the stuff mentioned here could be easily presented for new Tira players or Jolly Side skeptics.

Will include: Tech Traps, Changed Persona instances, Wall Combos, Setups, Wakeups, gimmicks and anti-x character/matchups.