If I were a scrub... Some thoughts on casual appeal (Better Version)

SC4 sold over 2 million. How much larger a raw audience do you need?

If you want a larger raw audience, the simplest way to do so is by releasing a version of the game on the Wii where the audience on that console is untapped. Going into all this design theory is pointless. What happens if the game is another repeat of SC3?

I also have to disagree with the hardcore fan only looking at just one aspect to judge the game on. The casual player and the hardcore fan have similar concerns which is why I said that Namco needs to focus on making a great game and not so much trying to cater to one group over another.
 
Dullyanna said:
Back on topic, thanks for clarifying Idle. If it's about design then simply look at SC3. Multiple single player game modes, things to purchase and unlock, and character customization. The last one is huge imho. The more options and details CAS allows, the more people will bring its quality up in forums and word-of-mouth, and the longer they'll play the game. It'd be best to bring the best of SC3 and SC4's options together, though this might be much more time consuming.

As far as guest and bonus characters go, an easy way to deal with it is lump them in a slot like they did for SC4. Furthermore, make them unlockable but have "core" characters (i.e. available from the start to make the seperation more apparent.

I'll bring up more later, I have irl matters to attend to lol.
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Problem is, by all reliable data Soulcalibur 3 is simultaneously the worst reviewed and the poorest selling Calibur game aside from Broken Destiny. So if you're using that as a base to appeal to casuals, it's not a very good one, and it really puts a light on the discrepancy between what players SAY they want, and what they actually pay for. They say "we don't want guest characters, they don't fit into the game," but the best selling games in the series are based around guest characters. They say "we want more story modes and character customization," but Soulcalibur 3 sold way less than Soulcalibur 2, and Soulcalibur 4 cut down on that stuff even more and still outsold them. Same thing goes for clone characters

Looking at it from both points of view, from Namco's, and from the player's, there are 2 different things they want. Namco wants to sell as many copies as quickly as they can. The players want to buy a game that will be worth their money.

Namco has proven that they can slap Link or Yoda on the box and that will guarantee sales. From a business viewpoint, that's possibly ALL they have to do. Or at least all they had to do; DLC actually changes things there. Now they'll want a piece of that pie, and I don't think that has any real positives for most players. The idea of keeping people interested 3 months after the game's release only matters to the company because that way they'll have a continuing market to sell trinkets to. I'd expect way more dlc costumes and create-a-soul items in the future.

Namco can add all sorts of extra story modes and create-a-soul modes, but the only thing that's going to have a hope in hell of pulling a casual fan out of being a scrub and wanting to learn the game (aside from the rare cases of them just deciding to do it for themselves), is if the gameplay is fun, exciting, and accessible. That's the only part I care about Namco caring about. If they can luck out and make it just accessible enough that someone who cares can feel that if they could just find a resource, they could actually get good at the game, then people will look, and they'll find sites like this. Too hard, and people won't bother, too easy and they'll get bored.

That, and, I'm sad to say, online. Most people will only compete against others online. If they find the online unplayable, they won't play, or won't care to try very hard.

As for things like art, characters, music, and all that. They do breed fans, but they're even less likely to try and compete. Namco has already proven that they can do enough to satisfy that type as much as Namco cares to.
 
How much of a jump between sc3 and sc2 occurred in terms of technology ? Because its on the same generation of hardware (ps2 only though, still baffled me why they did this), the biggest difference on paper to a newbie would be trading console-specific characters for CAS/chronicles single player game.

I wonder how much SC5 and namco can get away with CAS clothing items that borderline on imitation of certain popular "possible guest characters ? Could be an easier way of preying on fanboys' dollars.

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And if the game doesn't provide tutorials on how to defeat abuse-able scrub-on-scrub tactics, better make sure this community (or any easily accessible community) provides newbies ways to solve such tactics (to prevent quitting due to frustration) but also a welcoming community (minimal gloomy whiny) so that they believe the game and consequently the community is worth investing time into.

People only have limited time, and should they be forced to discover everything for themselves while losing repeatedly and getting frustrated and feeling defeated ?
They'll hop onto a brainless FPS and just run around shooting each other for cheap thrills or going to do some MMORPG and playing some game that requires 5% of your attention. However, if they are provided resources to convince them that FGs (specifically SC5) is worth the time then maybe
the turnover rate of players who try the game and either 1)quit 2) resort of scrub tactics (I dont' understand how some people in ranked after 2 years still play the same manner) will be much lower.

Anyways, I'm all for combo videos, but many videos instructing "basic" techniques maybe required. At least you maintain that you're reaching out to newer players and not assuming everyone has reached the stage where they're looking for the best wall-splat trap combo.
 
Vincent said:
Stop being a judgmental asshole. I'm just saying what I actually think. First of all, you don't know me enough to say shit like, "Weren't you once a scrub that toughed it out?" To me it's simple. Either you're competitive or not. IMO, a competitive person can't actually be a scrub because, at the end of the day, they're going to embrace as many challenges as they possibly can. It goes against their manhood to back down from a challenge. Naturally they will become 'good' because of this spirit they stand by.

Lastly, I specifically said in my first post that we shouldn't tell casual players to fuck off or whatever. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying, prioritize. To elaborate a little more, I don't see why it's disappointing for me to place more value on real competitors. In other words, just because I place more value on such people doesn't mean I shun those who aren't fighting. And the reason it led me to post here is because, when I see messages like the topic of this thread is giving, it only reminds me that there is too much focus on the fluffiness of this community rather than the heart of it. I mean, so what if the scene dies? That's how it was meant to pan out. It just so happens that people don't care about one-on-one fighting as much anymore. Sign of the times. You can't lure people into being competitive and expect it to work if it's not who they really are. Anyway, I had fun getting this message across.
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The reason why I come off as a judgmental asshole is because I'm trying to see what you're about, Vincent. Nothing more except matching your attitude with my own. However, I should offer an apology if my post came off as an absolute honest douche to you. My apologies, I guess I should of been more delicate. Anyways, I get your point more or less. I have a stupid question if I may ask. What is it that you desire so much?
 
My own thoughts, as a player who has been devolving the past couple of years.

a) Movelists. Scrubs want to be able to do all the moves. No ridiculous motions. This is my personal issue, as you probably can tell with my posts, but this is why it's my personal issue. I agree with David Sirlin on this entirely. Scrubs do not necessarily need to know how to use the moves correctly, but if they want to spam out any move in the game, let them.

Note: stuff like JF's, provided that missing the JF doesn't get you killed is fine. Making Summon Suffering dependent on something for the full damage is fine also. Stuff like a JF that puts you at -20 on hit if you don't hit the JF isn''t fine (I think Raph had one of those in SC4). I'd add in a VF5-style command training mode and an achievement for completing one character's command training to help.

b) Look at what MK9 is doing. That game is going to out-sell every other fighting game, except maybe SF4 (I think it might even beat that). Why? Fanservice. They give what the fans want, and plenty of single-player content, but in ways that don't damage the competitive game. The key to single-player content is to make it optional, and to allow both exploring the content, and just playing games to each unlock things in an equivalent fashion. Single-player content should never make people who just want to play the game feel punished. I do think SC4 did a good job with this, with achievement-based unlocks and only 30 of 50 needed to unlock everything. I'd keep that system for SC5.

c) Customization. People loved to customize characters. I think it was the most loved feature of SC for casuals. I'd expand on the system, and even have guest customizations such as KOS-MOS, or say a Tomoe Mami costume. The bad part about Customization was giving stats to parts- which led to what Sirlin calls the "Football Helmet Clown Shoes Guy" problem, where people make ugly outfits because of stat bonuses. This is why I don't think special vs is a good mode.

d) Online has to be decent. It doesn't have to be super good, though I'll take super good- the best thing about online is being able to get up at 5am and just play folks, instead of driving 90 miles to find your nearest comp, deal with their personal issues, and have it be at inconvenient times. Also, let's face it: fighting gamers are becoming graybeards gamer-wise, especially SC with its lower execution- oftentimes we have jobs/kids. It's hard to find the time to travel now, unlike when you're some college kid with a lot of free time. Online has to be at least at the standard of SF4 in terms of gameplay.

e) Use DLC to keep the title fresh over time. If people keep playing over time, they'll consider the game valuable and keep buying the next one. This doesn't mean DLC horse armor ripoffs, though some of those are fine, such as the SC4 holidays outfits. But use those 2 free updates to patch gameplay, and add some stuff here and there, even if it means holding it back (don't put on disc, people resent that.). It's a good excuse to throw a gameplay patch to fix imbalances in as well. This might end up being part of b) as I think NRS is planning this also.


BTW LostProvidence is right above: scrubs will hop from game to game. The important thing is that they buy the games with good gameplay, so the competitive community gets games that are good, and not crap. For that reason, games have to appeal to casuals also.
Also if casuals like your game, they'll buy the next one. That's how you keep series going.
 
Bear in mind that my thoughts are just PURE THEORY.

Well being on my casual side I would love to see the day that CAS will totally feel almost unique especially in a fighting game. Throwing a lot of demands for CAS may eventually take up a lot of space when sharing room with the regular casts, so that's when I think there maybe a possibility that CAS may deserve it's own game.

Be it another Chronicles of the Sword game when Namco probably relies on another developer to make one so they can publish it. I've been looking at other games, some games (like Crysis) that base things on how you play is what intrigues me and if you look at the players, they play with different styles. You've got turtle players, rush-down players, etc.

What if a game heavily based on CAS is based on how you play and as you level your character up, you gain predefined move sets that further support your style of game play? Like you know if I play turtle style I would gain move sets that support a turtle player.

Here's another thing though, Namco may have ideas of a new fighting game mechanic that they are unsure whether it work out with the audience so they put their idea version into Chronicles of the Sword to experiment and if it was a success, if not only casuals but competitive players love this type of system then they pass this route to the next SC iteration.

Sorry IdleMind I'm not sure if responded to your post the way you expect ppl to respond to your post, but since you include CAS in your post, I might as dwell upon it if I were to get in touch of my casual side.
 
Have MORE guest characters. As long as they are balanced the game will sell better.

Im sure if we put 10 guest characters from popular franchises ( BALANCE!!!!! ) the game will sell extremely well.

Core Soul Calibur mechanics + Peoples favorite characters = success

Maybe scrubs will be more enthusiastic about learning the game if they can do it with sephiroth or ( insert popular character ).

All they have to do is make a great game ( like the past sc games ) and flood it with popular characters.
 
If you're going to put in a bunch of guest characters like that- why not just go all the way and make it a game of guest characters? It wouldn't be a Soul game at that point.

That said, the amount of work it would take to make such a game right, versus the fact that doing it right wouldn't add many sales, would mean Namco would give minimal effort to the gameplay.

1 Guest character such as Kratos like MK did, isn't bad, but when it gets to be overkill, you're making an anime fighter game, not a serious fighter. I'm not knocking anime BTW, just anime fighters like Naruto games.

Guest customizations are a good way to capture this crowd, without compromising the core mechanics, and gaining the best of both.
 
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