LCD or CRT?

[whitey]

Hi franman, I can tell you from my experience as a competitive pc-gamer (won cs 2 years in a row at digital overload) that you want nothing more than an 8ms response time, which is very easy to find. The screen I play SC4 on is a 19" Benq moniter which has a 2ms response time and i got it like 2.5 years ago for $300. So this lag or "ghosting" is a minor problem these days. it was a pain 2 years ago tho.


tl:dr LCD all the way dude as long as its <8ms response

 

[Jaxel]

As I already said whitey... input lag is not the same as ghosting!

Response time =/= Input lag time

Response time is not the same thing as Input lag time... Response time is basically, how long it takes a lcd crystal to go from white, to black and back to white again. LCDs with bad response times end up having a weird effect called "ghosting"... where you see image trails because the LCD isnt refreshing fast enough to keep up. Absolutely nothing to do with input lag.

Input lag is the time it takes the monitor to recieve the input stream, and then display it out to the user. Basically, every 16.6ms is a single frame. So if you are playing on an LCD screen that has a 80ms input delay, then you are going to be 5 frames behind... Most LCD screens have about 25-50ms delay; which is why most gamers almost never want to play on an LCD screen for fighting games. For RTS and FPS games, its not much of an issue; but with fighting games that have just frames... input delay can make or break a purchase.

 

[gumrucker]

Hmmm.. I would've thought the input delay on an LCD would have been in the same region as the refresh rate period, because I was under the impression that refresh rate was the bottleneck for CRT monitors as well. Even with a 60Hz refresh rate (which is also the refresh rate of SC, yes?) on LCD tvs, that should be 16.6ms (or 8.3ms for 120Hz) not inupwards of 25-50ms.
However, this is assuming there is no lag in the signal before getting to the TV and no post-processing, just pure signal displaying. I could very well be mistaken, I'm no expert.

I have 2 questions on this topic (I too am researching HDTVs for gaming purposes).

1)If an LCD TV has input delay, does that make JFs impossible? The console will still be running with no lag, so as long as the timing is correct wouldn't that still result in a JF?

2)Numbers and reviews are great, but what is the best way to test an LCD tv for input delay and reponse time? I was planning on hooking up the game console in store and testing it myself. What should I look for? What should I do (in game or out) to visually see a level of performance?

 

[Ruko]

Most LCD's these days are 8ms or under so ut isnt really an issue.

It would be pretty safe to assume that as long as you have any sort of image processing turned off and also scaling turned off that there should not be any input delay. Also XBOX 360 has dedicated hardware scaler so you can set it to any resolution and it should play lagg free, The PS3 from what i udnerstand uses software scalers but its only for PS2 games and the console is only able to output PS3 games at whatever the native resolution of the game is. Since most games are 720P i would think its safer to go with a 720P screen so there is as little scaling done as possible to avoid lag regardless of which console you use.

I not 100% sure about the PS3 stuff so someone should correct me and its usualy better to down scale than upscale both visually and speed wise.

Honestly if you want to do strictly for gaming i would invest into a PC monitor with HDMI inputs and HDCP support, this way ther wont be any issues of input delay and all that. For testing HDTV's best bet woudl be to go in and demo it, JF's are a good way to test. I'm pretty sure you'll be abel to feel the lag if there is any at all.

 

[whitey]

you dont even need hdmi. i use the vga cable on a lcd pc moniter and theres no lag

 

[Jaxel]

The PS3 doesnt upscale if it doesnt have to. If the game is default 720, it wont upscale to 1080; because there is no reason to. You wont be getting any boost in quality by doing so. The only time it upscales is in PS2 games; and the lag with the scaler has been fixed for about a year now.

As for the 60hz refresh rate.. now you are adding a THIRD dimension and a THIRD property that is completely unrelated...

Resolution Refresh Rate (frame rate) =/= LCD Refresh Rate =/= Input Lag Delay...

Frame Rate is how many screens you are seeing per second. So with a 60hz frame rate, you are seeing 60 frames per second... thus a single frame is 16.6ms. You shouldnt really care about this these days; all monitors do at least 60hz.

Refresh Rate is how long it takes a pixel to go from white to black to white again... if this is too high you get ghosting... however, this problem has been largely fixed in LCD monitors these days and its not something you need to worry about.

Input lag is the time it takes the monitor to recieve the input stream, and then display it out to the user. Most LCD screens have about 25-50ms delay; the input delay problem is largley NOT been fixed, as TVs are generally not designed for gamers. Some TVs have "game modes"; but the majority dont.

 

[Sadrabbit]

I'm using an LCD monitor with and HDMI input to play games on.

I couldn't find a test that had been done for my specific model but a similar one had about 30-40ms input delay. (The refresh rate is less than 5ms).

This means that anything I see on screen is about two frames behind whats actually happening. This really isn't noticeable. I.E. it doesn't hinder my ability to do just frames, GI, block lows, or escape throws.

It would however compound any issues with lag while playing online. But for whatever reason I can still do all those things.

It's an unfortunate reality that will hopefully be fixed in the not-too-distant future.

 

[Jaxel]

If your TV has a game mode, you should ABSOLUTELY be using it... (though through HDMI, you dont usually need it, with Sony TVs, you CANT put HDMI on game mode)

What Game Mode does is turn a large portion of the post-processing functions of your TV off. Most post-processing functions work to make the images look better, more vibrant, less grainy and less blocky. Each of these functions adds an element of lag; but this is why your games dont look as good with Game Mode on.

Frankly, dont buy a TV without game mode...

 

[Ruko]

Input lag is the time it takes the monitor to recieve the input stream, and then display it out to the user. Most LCD screens have about 25-50ms delay; the input delay problem is largley NOT been fixed, as TVs are generally not designed for gamers. Some TVs have "game modes"; but the majority dont.

So are you saying this also applies to LCD's that don't do any processing on their own like monitors or is this strictly LCD HDTV's?

 

[KoshTheKoala]

If your TV has a game mode, you should ABSOLUTELY be using it... (though through HDMI, you dont usually need it, with Sony TVs, you CANT put HDMI on game mode)

What Game Mode does is turn a large portion of the post-processing functions of your TV off. Most post-processing functions work to make the images look better, more vibrant, less grainy and less blocky. Each of these functions adds an element of lag; but this is why your games dont look as good with Game Mode on.

Frankly, dont buy a TV without game mode...

Actually I have a Sony TV and I use HDMI and game mode.


This might help:
http://gear.ign.com/articles/720/720303p2.html

 

[Jaxel]

So are you saying this also applies to LCD's that don't do any processing on their own like monitors or is this strictly LCD HDTV's?

LCD Monitors DO have processing... even they will lag; and unfortunately there are no "game modes" on monitors because they have such larger pixel resolutions and cant afford to lose that post-processing. And yes, LCD monitors DO lag; its just that with the applications you use on a PC, you cant notice it.

But there are different types of LCD monitors. LCD TN monitors have very little lag, but the image quality is terrible (this is generally what you find in laptops); they are designed for gamers and the fact that they are the cheapest LCD monitors out there... Then there are VA monitors (SVA, PVA IPVA, etc), these monitors look AMAZING, but can often have lag; they are designed more for graphic artists and people who do actually COMPUTER work.

Sony's old firmware never let you do Game Mode with HDMI, now that all of Sony's new TVs have the XMB, I guess they do. However, the link that Kosh gave is pretty much unreliable for fighting games. Most people who claim to have tested a TV and report "no lag" play games like Madden or Halo; so they cant sense the lag.

 

[Jago]

I have a CRT Curtis Mathes 35 inch I think....only problem is it's hard to see some of the text in SC4.

 

[Jaxel]

CRTs generally dont lag... they havent lagged in 30 years, so I dont see how they will suddenly make CRTs that lag...

There is only one way to test the exact lag on an LCD TV...

Buy a distribution amplifier (I have one)... get a CRT television for the 0 frame baseline... get the LCD television that you wanna test for lag. Hook up a counting device that counts in milliseconds and output it to both the CRT and the LCD through the distribution amplifier. (You can use your computer and output the video stream). Put both the CRT and the LCD screen right next to each other and start the counter. As the counter is running on both screens, take a camera and snap a photo. Look at the photo and compare the counter different between the CRT and the LCD; subtract and you have the input lag on the LCD.

As you can see, they did NOT do this on the IGN article... therefore it fails.

 

[Ruko]

CRT HDTV's can lag from scaling. I guess basically if you want HD your stuck with some sort of lagg, Definately need to see good comparions of HD screens runing 720P with asmuch processing as possible disabled.

Im gunna stick with using my cheap samsung panels for gaming after reading all this stuff about HD lagg.

btw im curious wouldnt Monitors need less(or no??) image processing than HDTV's because they have more pixels over a smaller area? I understand input lagg on the diff panel types, but is there aditional lagg applied to that. I havent been able to find anything about it other than panel info.

 

[UnKn0wN]

LCD or CRT monitors?

Umm... No... CRTs have always, and probably will continue to have better quality picture than LCDs for the next decade. CRTs have better contrast ratios, better white balance, better black balance and better color management. In almost every retrospect, CRTs are better than LCDs...

So whats the problem? Right now, the only 1080p High Definition Widescreen CRT television I can find is 32 inches; and then its about 3 feet thick. Meanwhile, I see 1080p High Definition Widescreen LCDs at 60 inches in stores; and I stood next to a 108 inch model at CES 2007.

The problem with CRTs are the footprint: size and weight. In order to get a High Definition Widescreen CRT television at around 60 inches, you would probably need about 5 feet of space and it would probably weigh close to a metric ton. Its not feasible in any sense.

I myself still use a NEC Diamondtron CRT for my computer monitor (which was $600 two years ago, and is still considered one the best CRT computer monitor you can buy). However, I am finally going to take the plunge and get an LCD monitor, and sell my CRT. I've done the research, I've looked around and I have seen with my own eyes that the best LCD monitor I can buy, barely looks as good as a CRT monitor I bought 10 years ago.

Ok I see what you mean by CRT's being better overall, but are you saying that a blu-ray movie on an HDTV doesnt look clearer and better than some normal DVD on a CRT? Or digital broadcasted channels on an HDTV compared to old analog channels on a CRT? Because thats just not true.

 

[Zoop]

LCD or CRT monitors?

are you saying that a blu-ray movie on an HDTV doesnt look clearer and better than some normal DVD on a CRT? Or digital broadcasted channels on an HDTV compared to old analog channels on a CRT?

No. Movies and such have less than nothing to do with what Jaxel is talking about (specifically input lag)... although I would say that a blu-ray movie on my high definition CRT television does look better than it would on an average LCD television or monitor.

As far as using LCD screens for fighting games goes, I own a DoubleSight DS-263N and have been extremely impressed with it so far - it's the first LCD monitor I've owned that has been able to come close to rivaling a CRT. It's a bit on the expensive side, however.

 

[seneca_22]

I have a Sony Bravia 40" 720p set. We played a lot of games on it last week and didn't notice any discernable input lag. Everyone was able to GI, JI, and hit their JF's just fine. Mine is hooked up with a HDMI cable. I don't think I have any effects on, and the picture is awesome.

On another note, when I briefly moved to South Dakota, I took my 30" CRT Sony HDTV up with me. When I came back to NM, I left it up there. When my wife came back down, she left the tv with her parents. They only get one channel, and they could really care less about HD. So how do I get my tv back? It's about nearly a 3000 mile round trip. Scored that thing for $300 on clearence at best buy, and could always use an extra HDTV.

So are people really against using LCD displays for tournaments?

 

[gumrucker]

Ok, I've been looking into TVs for a while,and I have pretty much settled on a LCD, namely: Samsung LN46A5XX series or LN46A6XX series TV. Anyone with personal experience with any of these sets? General thoughts/comments/suggestions?

 

[ShenYu]

So are people really against using LCD displays for tournaments?

Well I can say that the last few "official" tournaments we've had here in Singapore on HDTVs were all on TVs that lagged. And sometimes getting a HDTV that doesn't have input lag seems like roulette so I can definitely understand the position of not wanting to play on one. Hell, I'm somewhat in favor of it for tournaments. Saves a lot of hassle.

 

[Jaxel]

CRT HDTV's can lag from scaling. I guess basically if you want HD your stuck with some sort of lagg, Definately need to see good comparions of HD screens runing 720P with asmuch processing as possible disabled.

Only if you are not watching on the TV's native resolution... Playing a 480i game on a 1080p television will cause lag, whether it is a CRT or an LCD... But playing a 1080p game on a 1080p television will add no lag... so if you are on a CRT, you should get 0 lag... but if you are on an LCD, you still have other processes on the TV that cause lag.