Match Up Notes & Discussion: Z.W.E.I vs Maxi

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AndyrooSC

IVE WAITED FOR THIS!!!
(This first post shall be updated overtime with new finds and from the discussion below)

Overview of character: :sc2maxi1:
Maxi can run a train of strings on you if you don't know the match up giving him free opportunities to get in. Outside of that he has a number of good pokes and a impressive whiff punishment game......what? was you expecting me just to write 6a+b and wrb+k in bold here? Trust me I was tempted :P.

General Strategy: :sc5zwe1: vs :sc2maxi1:
If your fighting a low level Maxi chances are they just using his strings and your strategy can be just whiff punish and let them kill themselves (below in the punishment section will be how to counter them)
A higher level Maxi player is going to have fewer openings. Its going to be about the reads and poking while staying out the way of his pokes.
Another mindgame strategy is using ZWEIs aGI 6a+b after things what makes Maxi want to attack back, for example 9B on block and 2K on hit, some usual responses from Maxi include 6a+b, 2a, 2b and 3k all what get repelled by the aGI, so then Maxi might start trying AA, 6A and throws which don't activate it so you could start ducking and wrB punishing.

Useful Notes-
Both Maxis A and B grab do 50 damage however the A grab can be teched after.
6A+B can be stepped to ZWEI's right.
Mid range and Tip range Maxi cant punish ZWEIs a+b without meter.
Maxi has to commit to punish 1B no hold and since 6a+b covers most options you can bait one out and JG it.

Pokes to consider:
2a - i14, safe, stepkill, hits Maxi out of wrb+k, +8 to work with on hit.
2k - i15, low poke, good post 2k options like 6a+b, fc2a, backstep etc.
B - i15, mid, safe, good post options include 6a, B, 2k, backstep etc.
9B - TJ, safe, avoids Maxi's very good 2A, good post options on hit and block.

Creating space:
7K - a blocked 7K puts ZWEI out of range from moves like 6a+b and 3B, and combined with a backstep then your out of range from even 6a and 6a+b be. The only moves what can still punish your backstep are 66a, 66b and 66k which all can be beaten if you do 2a after 7k instead of backstepping.

66A+B- If maxi blocks the first hit then he has to JG, GI or block the second hit. If blocked your are at Maxi's ghost 6a range. A backstep after this is completely safe, you can wait and whiff punish if he tries 66B, 6A, 66K etc.

Mid range
A+B- when Maxi has no meter this cant be punished at range. If you get Maxi to block it tip range then he cant even punish it with 6a+b BE or CE. This move breaks in 10 remember.

6A -A longer range than you think vs Maxi. High step kill is risky because of Maxis TC attacks but on NH hit(+3) and even block you not put in a bad position. 6A is -14 on block however Maxi can only CE punish it, which is difficult to do on reaction because of the short block stun. (Maxi's other i14s and below don't reach, even at point blank).

3A - This stepkill has ghost range as well, a little shorter range than 6A however this hits Mid which eliminates the option to TC under it with wrB+K. On block its -17 however Using this tip range is most effective because if spaced properly Maxi cant even 6a+b BE punish it. Using this move at its optimal range can make the opponent think twice about stepping when in this range and sets up heavier guard hitting moves i.e 66A+B, 66B.

Long range-
1B) - I mean very long range, out of way from advancing TC moves such as 33B and 22B.
Here you can be holding Ein and keep your opponent at bay for a short moment while you build some more meter.

Punishment-
NG = Neutral Guard (Maxis B+K aGI from any of his stances)
:A::A: - AA into guard is -17 punish with 4B BE. However if Maxi does his aGI it will punish the 4B BE attempt or if Maxi uses RC B then he will be airborne and the brave edge of 4B can be ACed away from. To punish all other options apart from guard backstep and wait then whiff punish.(if you backstep and hold G then RC B will hit your guard).
:6::A: - 6A is -13 on guard, punish with K. K also beats every other option Maxi has from his stances and you will receive a CH(after that CH you could backstep freely or A+B and depending on the range could be unpunishable. However K is range dependent and if it whiffs Maxi can on reaction G cancel and 6A+B whiff punish you. If you block 6A outside K range you should be outta range of any stance follow ups. Tip: If Maxi gets 6A happy at these ranges then all it takes is a read by ducking and scoring a wrB whiff punish for 80+ damage with meter.
:3::A: - 3A into G is extra unsafe because 66A+B is a punish. Maxi is forced to go into one of his stance options all of which can be backstepped, waited then whiff punished.
:1::A: - This is low can be blocked on reaction. Its -13 on block but the way Maxi steps back afterwards makes a fc2a punish whiff. Tip: use the disadvantage what Maxi is in to start an offense, for example 66a+b or wrB/66B.
:4::A: - 4a into G is -16 on block, the best thing to do is K because it also beats all Maxi's stance options afterwards if he tries to opt for them. You can also backstep, wait and whiff punish his other stance options, you need to be quick and use either 66Ba or CE to punish BL A after backstepping.
FC :3::A::A::A: - After blocking the first FC 3A you can 9B out of the second one. If you block the third one 4B BE punishes if they hold G or try any stance option. If your slightly late Maxi will be able to aGI you with NG.
:B::B:- BB into G is really unsafe because 66a+b can puinsh it. All options from Maxi's stances can be backstepped expect LO B at point blank range. If you expect LO B after BB its an easy sidestep then do a quick A+B to also punish the K from LO BK if Maxi tries it.
The Kick is also duckable and gets you a wrB whiff punish.
:6::B::4: - When you block the beginning of this move you get sent to the side while Maxi is still spinning his nunchucks around. If he doesnt cancel it you can punish him with 66A+B. Maxi can press G cancel it quickly be in LI stance., the best option here is to backstep, wait and whiff punish.
:3::B: - This move is -14 on block, close range punish it with AA.
:1::B: - Point blank range only, ZWEI cant backstep out of 1BA. If Maxi goes into stance after 1B you can beat all his stance follow ups with iwrK apart from 1BB. if you block RO B then punish with 4KB as it beats all stance options aswell. Outside point blank range backstep out of Maxi's other options(backstep twice to avoid RO AK then A+B whiff punish straight away).
:4::B: - 4B into block is very unsafe, punish with 66BA. However its almost certain Maxi will go into stance here, most common follow up being 4BB which has a K string at the end of it. Duck the K as its high and punish with wrB. 4BB into block is -19, so punish with A+B. However you can avoid the reverse mix up by stepping 4BB to ZWEIs left and A+B whiff punishing.
:8::B: - Maxis 8B into guard is very unsafe at roughly -31, punish with 66A+B or wrB if you want to use meter without scaling. Maxis NG aGI from his stance comes out a little to early to aGI wrB or 66A+B here so if Maxi opts for that he will get punished.
However LO A, B or K will beat these 2 moves, backstep will eliminate all these options and get you a A+B whiff punish. Imo if your blocking and Maxi does this move its possible to JG on reaction and you get a free 3B punish.
WR :B: - This move is -18 on guard, punish with 4B be. On JG its shockingly bad at -41, should be able to react to option-select JGing it and 3B punishing.
:2::K: - if guessed right this move is -18 on block, punish with 4B be.
:2::K::B: - You will get CHed if you try punish 2K if Maxi does 2KB. The second hit can still be blocked on NH and its -17 punish with 4B be.
:1::K: - If you guessed right this move is -14 on block, punish with fc2a.
:2::3::6::K: - This move has 3 different timings where is ends, straight away 236kG
(-17), half way through 236KG (-15) and the normal version (-15). BB punishes all of them but its hard to react between the different ones, 6B gives you that extra frame to input it in time for the punish.
Wr:K::K: - The second kick is a high, duck and punish with wrB.
















"will continue later"
 
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MightyOmega

[10] Knight
2K or any of ZWEIs pokes to backstep BK works wonders against Maxi, outspaces any of his options aside from 6AAK, 4BB, and 66B, and due to not being able to be counter hit while doing BK, the 6AAK string is basically a worthless counter strategy. And we don't need to get into much detail as to why 66B and 4BB are bad moves, so baiting either one of these out after you get them to expect to backstep after 2K is a great option from what I've practiced. Works great out IRM who has problems when it comes to getting outspaced by ZWEI.
 

Jimbonator

[14] Master
2K or any of ZWEIs pokes to backstep BK works wonders against Maxi, outspaces any of his options aside from 6AAK, 4BB, and 66B, and due to not being able to be counter hit while doing BK, the 6AAK string is basically a worthless counter strategy. And we don't need to get into much detail as to why 66B and 4BB are bad moves, so baiting either one of these out after you get them to expect to backstep after 2K is a great option from what I've practiced. Works great out IRM who has problems when it comes to getting outspaced by ZWEI.
I don't agree with much of this. 2K backstep does put Zwei in danger of a 66B or 6A CH scenario given the frame breakdown. 6A into guard is only -13 so even if you block 6A what can ZWEI even get given that his AA and 2A are i14? So if the Maxi is hit confirming things like these like he should I feel the risk is pretty small for Maxi to be liberal with these moves. 66B is a mixed bag because Maxi has to do something but what does Zwei have against 66B that heavily damages Maxi cleanly? 66B is high risk high reward and certainly is not a bad move by any means, same with 4BB in this MU given how sluggish ZWEI is. Please correct me if any of this is wrong. What situations can ZWEI create that aren't in Maxi's favor? Doesn't side step 6A+B/6A+B only invalidate most if not all his key set ups? He also gets meter a lot faster than you and your large hitbox certainly isnt helping things in terms of dealing with things like BL K BE combos and actually trying to step his magical tracking moves.

I'd also imagine things like 66K and 44K on block to be a total pain for ZWEI to deal with given his speed again, so you can turtle up but eventually your guard will break because all the evasive moves that you have to deal with also pepper guard really effectively.
 
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MightyOmega

[10] Knight
I just stated from personal experience against Maxi players with ZWEI, backstep usually does me wonders. Yes, if they do read your backstep, 66B is going to be a load of damage, but if it's blocked from a certain range, ZWEI can backstep BK most of the options unless they do not do anything, and if it's too close then you can always go with a safe 2A which you're right, does little to no damage, but it still gets you out of that situation.

As for 6A, this move never has given me problems because after they expect a counter hit on your backstep, which usually never happens due to BK if timed correctly, you can duck the second string if it's andlother A, then punish with WS K, for a pathetic amount of damage, but once you have them expecting you to duck after the first 6A, they usually go with the next hit to be a B to catch you ducking, if they do that, then it's a free AB or if you're expecting them to GI after the B, just delay the AB or come up with 66AB.

Doing this usually makes them think more carefully about throwing out 66B or 6A.

As for 66K and 44K, I am not sure what options ZWEI has in these situations, mainly because I never see them used anymore, aside from Marginal using 66K, which usually gets ducked and then punished, and 44K after certain strings. But 2A and 66BK usually work for me in those situations.
 

Jimbonator

[14] Master
This works against the stance yes, but is range dependent and whiffing a K punish from 6A guard cancel is a free 6A+B for Maxi. 6A even appears to have phantom range in this MU. So even then, the worst Maxi is eating is 16 damage from a CH in contrast to the 49 Maxi gets from 6A if he guess right.

66B defense stuff
Turns out neutral guard counters everything you listed except for 6A, even 66B+K gets GI'd while you are BEHIND Maxi. So if you want higher damage than your guaranteed FC A you have 4B to counter LI B, or 6A to counter NG. 4B guaranteed damage is 59 damage with meter. Typical 6A combo is 56 meterless. If you misread and get hit with LI B you get hit with 57 meterless and 67 with meter with clean hit chances. Neutral guard hits for 30 or 37 with clean hits. This is the breakdown for post 66B block.

66B on hit will hurt you with 63 damage and given that 66B PSL2 BL K BE appears to be a NC on poor Zwei, that is 83 damage with meter and a nasty force block you gotta eat.

1B holds at long range can be circumvented by Maxi just waiting you out or if he is in range he can go under EIN, and hit you with 22B.

4A holds can be countered with side step 6A+B BE, if you hold it he can just normal 6A+B BE you for being cute. Yeah! In ZWEI's favor everyone! Maxi is really limited here! If you choose to not summon EIN at all from 4A, 6A+B BE STILL punishes you. Or he can just CE to invalidate the situation all together.

B+K BE can switch roles of initiative here yes but this has the pretense of actually landing a hit with enough advantage to warrant these set ups and hope the Maxi suffers from a broken A+B+K button so he cant GI. If the Maxi freezes up you can get your damage but if he has half a brain you have your work cut out.

Also how can ZWEI break Maxi's guard already twice for his one time if Maxi knows this really simple anti? HE BUILDS METER FASTER THAN YOU. He can essentially bleed you out meterwise by GI'ing your set ups and 66A+B attempts. None of these situations are in your favor. You have to think considerably while Maxi really does not.

What can you do to keep him in check? I don't see how you can stop his endless barrage of 6A+B and evasive moves without sticking your neck out considerably. Even when you are at +6, 6A+B will track you BOTH sides. So what can ZWEI do? Turtle up and move very sparingly? Alright, oh wait, all those 44Ks and 44Bs you are blocking from turtling too hard are making you blink red! RIP ZWEI. Good points, but certainly does not "prove me wrong"
 
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AndyrooSC

IVE WAITED FOR THIS!!!
This works against the stance yes, but is range dependent and whiffing a K punish from 6A guard cancel is a free 6A+B for Maxi. 6A even appears to have phantom range in this MU. So even then, the worst Maxi is eating is 16 damage from a CH in contrast to the 49 Maxi gets from 6A if he guess right.


Turns out neutral guard counters everything you listed except for 6A, even 66B+K gets GI'd while you are BEHIND Maxi. So if you want higher damage than your guaranteed FC A you have 4B to counter LI B, or 6A to counter NG. 4B guaranteed damage is 59 damage with meter. Typical 6A combo is 56 meterless. If you misread and get hit with LI B you get hit with 57 meterless and 67 with meter with clean hit chances. Neutral guard hits for 30 or 37 with clean hits. This is the breakdown for post 66B block.

66B on hit will hurt you with 63 damage and given that 66B PSL2 BL K BE appears to be a NC on poor Zwei, that is 83 damage with meter and a nasty force block you gotta eat.

1B holds at long range can be circumvented by Maxi just waiting you out or if he is in range he can go under EIN, and hit you with 22B.

4A holds can be countered with side step 6A+B BE, if you hold it he can just normal 6A+B BE you for being cute. Yeah! In ZWEI's favor everyone! Maxi is really limited here! If you choose to not summon EIN at all from 4A, 6A+B BE STILL punishes you. Or he can just CE to invalidate the situation all together.

B+K BE can switch roles of initiative here yes but this has the pretense of actually landing a hit with enough advantage to warrant these set ups and hope the Maxi suffers from a broken A+B+K button so he cant GI. If the Maxi freezes up you can get your damage but if he has half a brain you have your work cut out.

Also how can ZWEI break Maxi's guard already twice for his one time if Maxi knows this really simple anti? HE BUILDS METER FASTER THAN YOU. He can essentially bleed you out meterwise by GI'ing your set ups and 66A+B attempts. None of these situations are in your favor. You have to think considerably while Maxi really does not.

What can you do to keep him in check? I don't see how you can stop his endless barrage of 6A+B and evasive moves without sticking your neck out considerably. Even when you are at +6, 6A+B will track you BOTH sides. So what can ZWEI do? Turtle up and move very sparingly? Alright, oh wait, all those 44Ks and 44Bs you are blocking from turtling too hard are making you blink red! RIP ZWEI. Good points, but certainly does not "prove me wrong"
Yo Jimbo.
Thanks for your input first of all, I have a few suggestions on making some of these situations seem less of a one sided match.

6a.
Yeah K punish is good enough, even nicer on CH, lets ZWEI either backstep or A+B and depending on range and meter Maxi wont be able to punish it. Ranges outside of K punishment are abit more tricky but if hes outta K range then chances are Maxi is outta range for his stance follow ups, so if K isnt used when it cant reach then its a fairly neutral situation. Also if its only used around that range it runs the risk of it being read and duck punished by wrB which is 81 damage + more with meter; which is pretty adventitious for ZWEI.

66B blocked.
Well we all agree on 2a which is what I always do in matches. If you really wanna try and guess for heavier damage there is 66A+B you can do which beats the aGI because its just slow enough and if you input 66A+B as soon as you block 66B and not a frame later(this can be harder than it seems on reaction especially under pressure) then the first hit actually clashes with a LI B follow up and the second hit launchers him. Of course if Maxi does anything else like LI A or LI K then this gets completely stuffed but that's quite the read on Maxi's part.

66B PSL2 BL K BE on hit.
Yeah NC on ZWEI, however it can be JUGed which ive done only a couple times lol. But its there to attempt especially when its for the kill or RO then you might aswell try it.

1B) hold.
Should only be used from stuns what give ZWEI a free max charge 1B) (22A, 1B) CH for example) or far screen away from any attacks Maxi could do, mainly for the sake of building meter and shortly slowing down the time it takes to reach him.

4A and 4A)
I believe its a reverse mix up between seeing 4a and stepping and doing 4a) instant release. Im sure the 4a) perfect delay can play a factor too.

As for turtling and blocking everything dont forget the power of JG.
 

Zane

Spirit of the Wolf
New Trophy:Received a "like" from Zane.
Exactly! it's really hard to get one. I think the only who's gotten one is darkwings13 for being so awesome, and now you :) they're platinum "likes" :D

Anyway, good stuff as always Andy
 

Jimbonator

[14] Master
Are you serious Zane?

First of all. 66B on block gives Maxi two immediate options, LI B to avoid verticals and highs, and NG to counter weapon based meaty mids. Any Maxi that knows what they are doing know that these options are the only things going to bail them out in a normal post block situation. NG comes out immediately, with all of what my previous post said, i went into training mode myself to test. If you want heavier damage from 66B, you can gamble with a 6A or 4B. If not, opt for a FC A because at most ranges that stops this whole situation of happening.

Zane Said: 4B is 81 with meter (you didn't say how much) , 6A is 60 without and 88 with. Good try.

It would help everyone with the MU if you specified what these followups were. When I said meter i assumed using half a bar, you can extend combos for more yes, but I make the argument that it isn't that economical in many cases because Maxi again, grows meter much more quickly and you need all you can get in this MU in my eyes. So while extending a 4B combo can close out a round, it does not have that much of a place unless you need damage or can RO.

Zane Said: Why are we talking on hit now? do you know how much 66A+B combo on hit is?

No correlation between those two moves given the situation I broke down, which is was 2K into backstep. Learn to context clues plz.

Zane Said: I'm sorry, did you read the last part of my previous post? Same applies here. How many Maxi's will actually counter 1(B) and 4(A) when used correctly? Try again.

This is MU discussion right? I listed ways Maxi can easily counter common set ups. This is meant to be as objective as possible right? Your tools versus their's? Define correctly because all you are is saying stuff with no real proof or demonstration to back up your claims. 1B by itself is -13, so luckily in this MU, a CE won't kill the entire set up given Maxi CE is i14, and a 6A+B BE will not punish the move on its own but unfortunately you cannot avoid the move given your frames you must block, JG, or GI. Guard damage incoming! If you choose to sent out EIN a 6A+B BE is coming your way and you get hit with ~70 damage for your troubles. Why would Maxi do anything else? It covers almost all possible situations! Long range can complicate things but if the Maxi is close enough and sees you charging 1B at range, 22B WILL close in granted he is not sleeping while playing you. Maxi should not be at your optimal range anyway given how easily he can bully you.

I broke down 4A best as I could, maybe you can actually break down this situation more because I am not seeing how this really works out. Worst case scenario for Maxi is that he assumes you will hold but you do not and he gets hit by Ein trying to counter. But sidestep into 6A+B BE seems to cover immediate options and even if the case Maxi is late punishing you, you are STILL getting put into guessing games given the circumstances a blocked 6A+B BE entails. and...guard damage!

Zane Said: Umm... that's why we have the option to grab and delay attacks during B+K BE?

You do, which in turn gives Maxi breathing room to do more evasive moves like 6A+B BE to circumvent your throwing and capitalize on your decision of not doing anything because blocking that move gives guard damage and cancels EIN coming out. So AGAIN, Maxi has very obvious multi-situation encompassing options whereas ZWEI needs to solve a calculus problem to come out on top. Its a good move though.

Zane Said: lol and Zwei can't? isn't GI'ing a thing every character can do? pretty sure it is.

ZWEI sure can GI, but for the 41619th time, Maxi builds meter faster than you. Maxi does not NEED meter to run his bullshit evasive moves/heavy whiff punishment game. It helps him a lot but he can still stand toe to toe no problem without it. ZWEI without meter has problems getting damage in many areas.

Zane Said: What can you do to keep him in check? didn't we just covered that there's a whole list of things? The choices are there, they're up for grabs. You say you don't see how you can stop his endless barrage of 6A+Bs? Then that means you haven't even read the first post.

List where? Andy listed basics to take into account. 6A+B is steppable to Maxi's left/ZWEI's right yes. But ZWEI's weak movement and massive hurtbox makes it very hard for him to do so unless at large advantage, something ZWEI rarely has anyway! If ZWEI hits Maxi with an AA and steps the right way 6A+B will STILL track, granted if you move and just G, you wont get hit, but that in of itself makes close range movement a gigantic pain in the ass for ZWEI.

Zane Said: For these last two paragraphs I'm just gonna go ahead and say it. You've taken a character vs character strategy conversation into a player vs player strategy. Zwei breaks your guard faster than Maxi, there's no proving that wrong. If we cram every move Zwei has and every move Maxi has against each other on guard, you will break more times, and faster. Now, you're saying "if Maxi knows this really simply anti"... you're including players knowledge and skills now, and do you think Zwei players will use 66A+B mindlessly? Same with that very bias 1(B) and 4(A) response. What makes you think we only use those moves on guard?

LearntocontextcluesAGAIN. When I illustrate a point and then use an example that "the only way this wont work is if the player is sleeping" means that this strat is extremely effective in countering a setup/move/whatever, meaning anyone can do it really. Meaning the MU meta evolves. High level players should know how to counter character moves and set ups. And then you say that but have the nerve to use "How many Maxi's will actually counter 1(B) and 4(A) when used correctly? Try again" as a point towards me when that is CLEARLY a player thing and not a MU thing? Meaning you should probably learn how to argue properly. Inb4 ad hominem.
 
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AndyrooSC

IVE WAITED FOR THIS!!!
Alright so to answer @Party Wolf question, 66B blocked by ZWEI, 4kb will beat everything expect LI B. Its a decent way to provoke that response and punish it with 66a+b. Its risky but a worthwhile option to bear in mind.

1B.
This seems quite interesting, for starters if Maxi wanted to punish this the only punishes he can get are K and AA (so AA) other than that its safe and if ZWEI actually does 1b) instant release it will punish the AA attempt. But this is heavy mind game oriented, its more common to just duck after seeing it or in Maxi's case 6a+b.
ZWEI options as @Jimbonator correctly said are block, GI or JG. JG seems the best option for a instant 6a+b response because allows ZWEI to get 3B punish because its -19, however if it was 6a+b be what was done then its a different story. Even on JG Maxi has options -
JGed 6a+b be > 3B = beats all apart from the aGI.
JGed 6a+b be > 4kb = beats all apart from LI B.
JGed 6a+b be > 44a = beats the aGI and LI B but nothing else (isnt gonna punish regular 6a+b either).
JGed 6a+b be > 2a = beats everything.
So its a mix up situation which will give either character advantage and momentum if they guess right.
Should be noted 1B breaks in 12 just like Maxi's 6a+b.

4A.
So I tested this and Maxi can step and 6A+B punish every 4A) hold variant(Maxi has to do it fast however). However this means regular 4a will go unpunished. 4A > backstep makes the step 6a+b whiff. 6a+b be will catch backstep most ranges apart from tip 4a range. Maxi can go for a 6a or 66b to punish backstep but 4a) would punish them, so its another reverse mix up mind game. 4a breaks in 15.
 

Alex.J

[14] Master
Yeah I know... I choked and beat myself after the first four games.. I shuddered every time I saw myself use 44A or 66BK in the wrong situations.
Yeah, I can think of much better panic buttons than 66b+k. That thing is mad unsafe. Also, if you wanna play sometime online lemme know.