Match Up Notes & Discussion: Z.W.E.I vs Maxi

Egg said:
Imo its Maxis Range that can be an issue for zwei. Zwei isnt very quick on the retaliation side of things.

If Zwei can CH some on the way in, then Zwei is in a really good spot. So if you are maxi the logic would be to space him out.
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Exactly. I dislike trying to close on Zwei. I prefer to keep him on the fringes or make him come to me.

I'm perfectly happy chipping him to death with 22B from across the screen.
 
Marginal said:
Exactly. I dislike trying to close on Zwei. I prefer to keep him on the fringes or make him come to me.

I'm perfectly happy chipping him to death with 22B from across the screen.
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The key to victory is to either catch you on a whiff or back you up against a wall or edge. One thing Zwei is good at is pushing enemies back.
 
Egg said:
The key to victory is to either catch you on a whiff or back you up against a wall or edge. One thing Zwei is good at is pushing enemies back.
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That can work against him if he tries to come in vs a character with a heavily damaging TC.
 
Alex.J said:
First off you mean WR B+K and 6A+B. Secondly, 3a with Zwei is unsafe. Why not go with his safe anti step tools like 2a and WR A? There is much less risk involved.
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I do use 2A as well, I just didn't think it was anything worth mentioning, as for WR A, I never really used it to begin with, but I can start applying it more often and see how it works out for me. I just used 3A because I enjoy taking risks for big damage I guess.
 
I dont think any good Maxi is going to use his stance game, b/c it sucks and his other tools are far superior.
But if you really have to...

All RO enders (6A, 1B, 44B) you can backdash after blocking. If he goes for RO K you block that , than backdash again to avoid all enders. To put it simple - just backdash, Maxi has no range.
For 6A it is not safe and you can punish with K. If you're playing against scrub who cant hitdetect, use 6B instead for backthrow setup.
After 4B~LO your main concern should be not getting hit by damaging moves such as ch LO B and RC AB.
Safest bet is to JG LO B (4BB) if JG is sucessful you can then go with 66BA (will lose to aGI) or B+K (will lose to LO (B)K)
after 66B Maxi takes a looong time to recover, so there is no "NG" option, there is an option to go to BL (LI 4) , which is his fastest recovering stance and then guard. I would go for guaranteed 2K/2A everytime, but once again, if you really have to you can WS B to force a reaction and delay WS B to beat all (including different delay of LI B) but LI A (instant WS B will trade with LI A). From there you can really bait his stuff.

Anyway its good to know what damaging stuff Maxi has from stance and not get hit by it for starters:
RC AB
LI B
ch LI K
BL KK
ch LO B
RO KK
RO B

I have a Mitsu vs Maxi guide http://8wayrun.com/threads/mitsurugi-vs-maxi-stance-guide.11205/, its a bit outdated but you can start there.

As for this "matchup" being "hard" for ZWEI its not true at all. At the very least its much better than his truly bad matchups such as Patroklos for example.
 
Belial said:
If he goes for RO K you block that , than backdash again to avoid all enders.
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If you are ZWEI, RO KK will kill backdash if you try to backdash RO K follow ups

EDIT: Unless you are at tip range, but that isn't the case after Maxi 44B unless he is using his follow ups at long range for unknown reasons.
 
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Party Wolf said:
If you are ZWEI, RO KK will kill backdash if you try to backdash RO K follow ups

EDIT: Unless you are at tip range, but that isn't the case after Maxi 44B unless he is using his follow ups at long range for unknown reasons.
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Okay to get it clear:
Maxi does 44B (for example) you block and backdash. If he goes for RO K you block that. and backdash again. Actually its possible to BDC out of it but not with ZWEI due to 214 being stance.
 
I think it's hilarious that much of the confusion in this thread has stemmed from people not knowing maxi stance auto gi is called neutral guard. I've seen tons of posts in here that are like "Nuh uh he totally can't neutral guard after that" cracks me up.
 
Why does everyone consider ZWEI "shit" this is not true at all. Nobody cares to play him at good level. At recent Japanese tournament ZWEI made it to the finals, here's the playoff http://www.twitch.tv/higeyos/b/494678311
and final I think is on Cabals channel. ZWEI has some of the highest damage output in the game. Every correct read you make = possible death combo. If you have 1.5 bar almost every EIN hit can be followed with iWS B for at least 150 damage, usually more (you easily get ~200 off most setups). If all you can do is play braindead characters like Pyrrha doesnt make ZWEI terrible.
If Decopon didnt win EVO, Cannes and placed 2nd at SBO everybody would still go on with Tira crytrain. ZWEI needs his own decopon. I can tell you he has qualities that win tournaments.
 
Belial said:
Why does everyone consider ZWEI "shit" this is not true at all. Nobody cares to play him at good level. At recent Japanese tournament ZWEI made it to the finals, here's the playoff http://www.twitch.tv/higeyos/b/494678311
and final I think is on Cabals channel. ZWEI has some of the highest damage output in the game. Every correct read you make = possible death combo. If you have 1.5 bar almost every EIN hit can be followed with iWS B for at least 150 damage, usually more (you easily get ~200 off most setups). If all you can do is play braindead characters like Pyrrha doesnt make ZWEI terrible.
If Decopon didnt win EVO, Cannes and placed 2nd at SBO everybody would still go on with Tira crytrain. ZWEI needs his own decopon. I can tell you he has qualities that win tournaments.
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I can see why people say he's bad at first glance, he has a lot of janky stuff, lack of punishment are the two biggest things I can think of. But in the right hands he is deadly *cough* AndyRoo. We just haven't seen many good players get their name out there to show what he can do.
 
Alright, this argument is over, we get it, you hate ZWEI. That's awesome, don't use him then.

As for the Maxi-ZWEI match up, ZWEI's 3A from tip and mid range cannot be 6A+B punished without meter, it pushes him back just enough to cause it to whiff.

EDIT: This also works close range, sometimes. It's odd, but 6A+B doesn't punish a close 3A every time.
@AndyrooxDS
 
MightyOmega said:
Alright, this argument is over, we get it, you hate ZWEI. That's awesome, don't use him then.

As for the Maxi-ZWEI match up, ZWEI's 3A from tip and mid range cannot be 6A+B punished without meter, it pushes him back just enough to cause it to whiff.
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Uh, 6A is the same speed as 6A+B.
 
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