Matchups subthread

Another Matchup Chart Attempt

KingAce said:
I deal with 1K like this, if I am using asta I 2A which beats out his 6K and other stuff, if he attempts WSA I can crouch grab. So it's a mind game, otherwise I 9G or GI.
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What? 2A with Asta? That doesnt beat anything. I dont get your post at all. Cervantes can FC A+BBB after 1K on Hit, he can iTP behind Asta, he can TJ the 2A with iGDR. He can 8[B+K] TJ behind Asta for free iGDR etc etc...2A is the WORST you can do. If you mean 2K its the same...iGDR, 8B+K, iTP...all works perfect.

If you crouch Throw Cervantes can RCC into 3B, 66B, iGDR....

There is no solution to 1K, its always a mindgame, for every Character...there are some who have better tools to deal against it like Yoshi with MCF or his 8K, but still its a mindgame. No matter what ou do, there is a reverse mixup in Cervys Favour...
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

Right, I'm just going to say it.

Rock has no good matchups and no even matchups.

This isn't even based solely on characters.

If you can escape throws AT ALL and you know how to play against Rock, then you will win the majority of matches as long as you can deal damage. Rock's only chance is with CF pressure, which he's actually decent at, but it's not enough to win consistently.

So either you put Rock's BEST matchups at a charitable 4/6, or you add a disclaimer that says anyone who knows what they're doing can subtract 2 points vs Rock.

In my opinion his worst matchups are vs Vader, vs Apprentice, vs Ivy, vs Sisters (each for their own reasons), vs Voldo, vs Setsuka (speculative; haven't played this one much), vs Amy, vs Astaroth, and vs Nightmare. Each of those are pretty much hopeless for Rock. You either have to guess right every time or they have to guess wrong every time.

And Mina is 6:4 vs Rock. My opinion.
 
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darkfender said:
What's the difference between online and offline preps?

They both can't be stepped on reaction, but just cause you know where to step and when.

And in many good matchups prepping at some distance let you enter SEA/B at low risk.

Am i wrong?
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My intense HATRED of Prep stems from 2 things. only one good stance entry (44A(B) You pretty much have to enter stance from this move or your gonna get wrecked) and how you can just outright duck it. Think about it... Prep A is the only mid aside from prep A+B(a linear -20 on grd i20) which you can easily stand then step to avoid. now this said ducking vs prep completely defeats it because prep A is -6 on NH and only 8 damage. This puts raph into a mix up situation every time you use prep vs an educated opponent. also SEA and VE are easy to react to. after you use them a bit people look for them and bait them. then you get CH'd and receive a ticket to the pain train.

also YES it can be stepped very easily...not on reaction...no... but who cares when it has shit for anti step? at least in standing raph has SOME anti step options(some pretty so-so ones but they work)

and as belial said YES you are wrong
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

l thought all the cool kids were beating anti prep with empty prep. Is that not cool anymore?
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

mikosu said:
Use the format. It will keep you realistic.
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The only thing I somewhat disagree with in the format, is name-dropping of the people you've fought that are considered "high level". Cause to me it feels like by doing this, you're relying on the reps of more well-known tournament winners/competiitors to validate your argument.

Honestly, in my case it's not a big deal cause, let's face it... no one plays Talim. So my argument has merit by default. But everything else I'm fine with. I should have a couple more matchups tomorrow sometime.
 
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WARUI_NE said:
My intense HATRED of Prep stems from 2 things. only one good stance entry (44A(B) You pretty much have to enter stance from this move or your gonna get wrecked) and how you can just outright duck it. Think about it... Prep A is the only mid aside from prep A+B(a linear -20 on grd i20) which you can easily stand then step to avoid. now this said ducking vs prep completely defeats it because prep A is -6 on NH and only 8 damage. This puts raph into a mix up situation every time you use prep vs an educated opponent. also SEA and VE are easy to react to. after you use them a bit people look for them and bait them. then you get CH'd and receive a ticket to the pain train.

also YES it can be stepped very easily...not on reaction...no... but who cares when it has shit for anti step? at least in standing raph has SOME anti step options(some pretty so-so ones but they work)

and as belial said YES you are wrong
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For the step you said exactly what i did....if someone can't react to something and he has to answer by knowledge, then its not matters of online or offline, but just that he can't step prep..as you say its easy...so his fault and latence is not involved.

For the SeA And VE thing well i tried to left aside frame for an istant and talk of spacing....frame are not everything.

When you enter SEA your opponent has few options: try to impact (you can delay the input too and seaB is not that slow to impact on reaction at leadst for many ppl) try to attack back (this is where the spacing comes in hand...if you enter prep from distance many characters doesn't have an answer) or step and eating a potential SEB or SEA.

obviously entering prep at contact gives you the option of crouching, waiting to see if your opponent enter SEA and punishing before any SEAA or SEAB arrives, but that does not works with a good spacing (but only in some matchups).

This is a sort of playable mind game in some occasions....i think.

Prep is a good punisher too, and if you hit your oppo in mid air you can go also for seB XD

And don't forget 4 that is TC on hits its a great move..on block it just sucks.

BTW the only reason raph suks is not prep, but he does not have any fast left tracking mid at medium distance -.- and anyone can take advantage on it expecially kilik.
 
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Not that you're relying on reps per say. It's more like saying you've played so and so who is knowledgeable and thus what you say is backed up securely. You probably wouldn't believe me as much if I said I played say...RandomKilikMaster5436 on PSN and that 6A+B is broken. Anywho I wiped the chart clean. Your numbers have been added. Hopefully this goes somewhere for the community.
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

Prep entry for raph on block is never that strong, so I don't see whats the point of debating about (should be well understood). You could even 8WR out of it (for the step-lazy) for a lot of the characters, except in the one force crouch block situation (44AB). In fact, stepping to beat prep entry is probably worse than 8WR because its just so damn easy to do and by 8WRing you can be prepared if raph doesnt enter prep.

Characters with good 8WR movement piss me off to no end...
 
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Raph doesn't need prep at all. Wish his BB gave advantage tho...that really makes him all about spacing cause he's never really at good advantage.
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

Raph HAS to use prep if only to determine if the opponent knows what to do against it. If they do adjust accordingly. It's silly not to ever use prep because prep shenanigans are the only thing that make raph fun. And the only way he he can get damage on combos.
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

haha man of course you use it in combos. in that situation its not possible to be raped horribly for it
 
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Belial said:
HO: "just stand there" is always the WORST solution.
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Belial: I'm not saying "just stand there" and wait for something. Obviously one can react if necessary and adjust to the patterns that that particular Cervy player falls into. That's all situational though. But, you can't tell me that "anything" Cervy can do after 1K is so dangerous to the point that you must do something every time you get hit by 1K. The worst that can happen from standing still waiting for that immediate follow-up is that Cervy gets a command throw off and you fail to break it.

EDIT: At least you can see if he'll 6K to keep you honest or not. =/ The point I'm trying to make is 1K doesn't lead to anything devastating.

I respect you, but I really question your familiarity with this particular match. You know I am intimately familiar with this match up. Maybe you're misinterpreting my statements or I'm not stating things well enough for you to understand what I mean. Either way, bring it to PMs if you'd like to continue.
 
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HajimeOwari said:
Belial: I'm not saying "just stand there" and wait for something. Obviously one can react if necessary and adjust to the patterns that that particular Cervy player falls into. That's all situational though. But, you can't tell me that "anything" Cervy can do after 1K is so dangerous to the point that you must do something every time you get hit by 1K. The worst that can happen from standing still waiting for that immediate follow-up is that Cervy gets a command throw off and you fail to break it.

I respect you, but I really question your familiarity with this particular match. You know I am intimately familiar with this match up. Maybe you're misinterpreting my statements or I'm not stating things well enough for you to understand what I mean. Either way, bring it to PMs if you'd like to continue.
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I think it really depends on the character. I guess opting to block and throw break is nice if you have something that really punishes them if they decide to go for a throw attempt.

Yeah, I just stuck my nose in your conversation. What are you gonna do about it?
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

Nofacekill3r said:
I think it really depends on the character. I guess opting to block and throw break is nice if you have something that really punishes them if they decide to go for a throw attempt.

Yeah, I just stuck my nose in your conversation. What are you gonna do about it?
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Dealing with 1K really depends on how honest Cervy is trying to keep you with 6K. =/ But the fact that he's forced into a mid / throw mix-up keeps me from worrying to much about the follow-ups.
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

the fact that he's forced into a mid / throw mix-up keeps me from worrying to much about the follow-ups.
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I dont get it. Isnt it the prefect situation you want to be in with a character. i.e. having a throw/mid mixup. and opponent is FC. I totally dont get it.
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

Yo guys I don't know how good Yoshi/Mitsu backdash is but I can backdash and avoid the whole mixup pretty easy if I am in CL stance (one more reason to be in this stance). All you have to do is be able to guard 66B/WS A on reaction, not hard.


Yay.
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

Both Ivy and Yoshi have good tools against 1K Post Mixups. Indeed Ivy can backdash well in CL, but if the Cervy just RCC dash into 1K again its the same situation. You cant backdash forever. If you can block all his stuff after backdashing it means you have godlike reaction.

1K is one of Cervys most damage giving startups. If you just stay and wait you will get owned very hard, if you have success with this it means the Cervantes player is not good enough to take advantage of it. Easy as that. Without 1K Cervy would be fucked, +1 is +1 and especially from FC Cervantes has a good game. He has andwers to people who try to 2A in between etc etc...

1K is an invisible low that leaves you at +1 and cervys best position: FC. I dont see how people dont see this as a threat. The move is what makes Cervantes dangerous.
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

how bout if ivy does a quick double backdash cancel? like 4~214? It seems to give Ivy a lot of distance, I'm not sure if Cervy can run that fast before ivy technically gains advantage again.
 
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If Cervantes does 1K, you can step it to your left real consistently, so you just step left whenever you're in range of that move. BUT if you get hit by it, you can just step his 6K follow-up and punish it (I don't think all characters can step it though) and try and break a grab if he tries a throw. Stepping will beat alot of his shit after 1K and it isn't punishable. Or you can just GI and mash throw break, it's not that threatening of a move, obviously still good tho.

I never noticed, Ivy steps faster in coil than other stances? I kinda just thought her step was amazing in any stance, but that sounds about right now that I think about it. Damn, I don't know how I missed that...
 
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TO answer a person that mentioned the "the cool kids fight anti prep with empty prep"

-_-...? Empty Prep is what? i21/i23 of empty frames? vs a stepper they're likely to attack right after they step(you're getting CH)

Vs a Ducker, you're at LEAST getting 2a'd.

I'm not suggesting Empty prep is useless, but it's NOT SOMETHING that plays an intricate part in Raphael's overall prep game.
 
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