Maxi Stance Analysis

howiplaythisgame

howiplaythisgame

[09] Warrior
so, i've spent some time with the game since getting it gathering data on maxi's stances. i didn't bother getting the data frame perfect because the guide will have all of it already; i was more interested in figuring out how the general pieces of his stance game all fit together. specifically, i was trying to answer the question: what loops are the most viable for maxi in SC5? that said, if you see something that appears to be a big mistake somewhere in here i can take another look at it.

i started by checking the frames of all moves that transition INTO a stance. here's how my data layout works, since it's a bit terse:

[move name]>[stance transitioned into]

g(on guard)- [number] to guard (how punishable it is if maxi simply guard cancels out of stance), [additional info], *[evasive info]
h(on hit)- (same layout as g)
c(on counterhit)- (same layout as g)

NOTE: i tested all of this against omega pyrrah since she seemed to be about average speed, had good range, and had 236B to test against. for the purposes of the actual numbers given, i've assumed AA = i11~12, BB = i15~16, 236B = i13~14, 2A = i14~15, and 3B = i18~19. these assumptions may be incorrect, but i've always added additional info along with the numbers. additionally, unless otherwise specified in the *[evasive info] section, WL always comes out early enough to GI BB and 236B punish attempts.

>RO

6A>RO

g- -11~-12 (AA) to guard, RO A clashes with ~launcher speed, *RO A & B step verts well, RO K does not TJ quickly
h- RO A & B interrupt all, TC moves don't OS RO A, *RO K TJ 2A
c- RO AK NCC


FC3A_AA_AAA>RO

g- (launch) to guard, (launch) to RO A, *RO A & B do not step verts well, doing only FC3A recovers much earlier in actual time although frames are the same, WL window starts ~i18
h- RO A interrupts all, RO B ~i14 (just faster than BB speed), *RO K TJ 2A, doing only FC3A gives slightly less adv
c- same as h


1B>RO

g- safe to guard, RO A interrupts all, RO B ~i15 (BB speed), *RO K TJ 2A
h- RO A & B interrupt all, *RO K TJ 2A
c- RO AK NCC


44B>RO

g- safe to guard, RO A interrupts all, RO B ~i11-12 (AA speed)
h- lift up stun into RO B
c- same as h

---
>LO

4B>LO

g- (launch) to guard, LO B interrupts all, *LO K TCs all high, LO A unreliable TC\step
h- LO B NC, LO K interrupt all, LO A ~i15 (about 2K speed), *LO A TC\step more reliable
c- same as h


RC B>LO

g- [forces crouch] (launch) to guard, LO B ~i16 (about BB speed), *LO K slow TC, LO A slow TC\step
h- ground stun into LO B
c- same as h


BL B>LO

g- [spaces] (launch) to guard, (launch) to LO B, *spaces some retaliation, WL window starts extremely late
h- LO B ~i19? hard to tell due to spacing
c- same as h


BL BB>LO

g- (launch) to guard, (launch) to LO B, *LO B TC all fast highs, WL window starts ~i18
h- [forces crouch] LO B interrupt all, LO K ~i19 (about launcher speed)
c- same as h

---
>RC

AA>RC

g- (launch) to guard, (launch) to RC A, *RC K TCs all high, WL WINDOW
h- RC A interrupts all, RC B_K interrupt launchers
c- same as h


a+bG>RC

g- (launch) to guard, (launch) to RC A, *RC K doesn't TC AA, RC B doesn't TJ 2A, WL window starts ~i18
h- [forces crouch] RC A ~i14 (barely loses to FC 2A), *RC K TC all high, RC B TJ all low
c- stun into RC AB


22B>RC

g- [forces crouch, spaces] (launch) to guard, (launch) to RC A, *WL window starts extremely late
h- [spaces] at least -14~15 (pyrrah 236B) to guard, (launch) to RC A, *RC K TC most highs
c- ground stun into RC B


22(B)>RC

g- safe to guard, RC A ~i9 (just faster than AA speed)
h- ground stun into RC B
c- same as h


RO B>RC

g- (launch) to guard, (launch) to RC A, *RC K TC starts late (loses to AA), WL window starts ~i18
h- stun into RC AB
c- same as h


LO B>RC

g- (launch) to guard, (launch) to RC A, *RC K TC all high, RC B TJ all low
h- RC A ~i9 (just faster than AA speed)
c- stun into RC B

---
>BL

4A>BL

g- ~-14-15 (BB) to guard, (launch) to BL A, *BL A backsteps close range retaliation
h- BL A, B, K interrupt all
c- same as h


WR B+K>BL

g- safe to guard, BL A ~i19 (about launcher speed)
h- launch into BL KK
c- same as h


11A>BL

g- (launch) to guard, (launch) to BL A, *WL window starts extremely late
h- (launch) to guard, (launch) to BL A, *BL A backsteps some retaliation, WL window starts ~i18
c- same as h


33B>BL

g- -11~-12 (AA) to guard, BL A ~i19 (about launcher speed)
h- launch into BL KK
c- same as h


RO A>BL

g- safe to guard, BL A ~i11-12 (AA speed), BL B & K ~i18 (just faster than launcher)
h- BL A, B, K interrupt all
c- same as h

---
>LI

3A>LI

g- (launch) to guard, (launch) to LI A, *LI B steps\TC immediate vert\high retaliation but not delayed verts\highs
h- LI A & K interrupt all
c- SHK


6B4, G>LI (2 hits)

g- (launch) to guard, (launch) to LI A, *LI B steps\TC immediate vert\high retaliation but not delayed verts\highs
h- KD
c- KD


6B4~G>LI (earliest cancel)

g- (launch) to guard, LI A uninterruptable, LI K ~i11-12 (AA speed)
h- (launch) to guard, LI A & K uninterruptable, LI B ~i18-19 (launcher speed)
c- (launch) to guard, LI A & K uninterruptable, LI B ~i16-17 (just faster than launcher speed)


6A+B(BE)>LI

g- (launch) to guard, LI A & K interrupt all, LI B ~i14 (about 2A speed)
h- LI A NC
c- same as h


22A>LI

g- (launch) to guard, LI A interrupt all, LI K ~i15 (about BB speed)
h- LI A, B, K interrupt all
c- LI A & K NCC


66B>LI

g- [forces crouch] (launch) to guard, (launch) to LI A, *LI B semi-reliable TC\step
h- launch into LI A
c- same as h


LI B>LI

g- (launch) to guard, (launch) to LI A, *LI B steps\TC immediate vert\high retaliation but not delayed verts\highs
h- launch into LI A
c- same as h


LI (B)>LI

g- (launch) to guard, LI A & K interrupt all
h- launch into LI A
c- same as h


RC AB(BE)>LI

g- (launch) to guard, LI A, B, K interrupt all
h- LI A NC
c- same as h


---
some notable stuff:

-everyone knew this already, but EVERYTHING that goes into LI or LO is launcher punishable if you try to block. if you go into those stances you MUST do a move or WL to keep yourself safe, regardless of how much advantage you are at.

-6A is pretty safe! on block you can only be AA punished, and you have a reasonable chance to step vertical punish attempts with RO A or B. it also gives good advantage on hit, unlike in SCIV.

-1B gives huge adv everywhere, like we expected.

-WR B+K is safe on block!

-6A+B(BE) and RC AB(BE) are godlike, as we knew already.

-22A gives some pretty serious adv on block and forces the LI A_K mixup nicely.

-dandy surprise (11A now) is still hilariously unsafe.

-33B is only AA punishable!

-44B gives a LOT of advantage on block.

-LI B is horribly unsafe, but WL or another LI B afterwards gives good GI\evasion

-there isn't much versatility in getting into LO safely. you need to connect BL BB (launcher punishable on block) or use 4B.

-getting into RC safely is problematic as well. you need to connect AA or LO B (both are launcher punishable on block) or make them guard a 22.

-RO, BL, and LI are all easy to get into safely (or "safely" in the case of LI, lol).

(to be continued below)
 
the next thing i did was to gather data on all of the moves FROM every stance. there's some overlap here, obviously. the same disclaimers and layout stuff apply here as above.

RO A>BL

g- safe to guard, BL A ~i11-12 (AA speed), BL B & K ~i18 (just faster than launcher)
h- BL A, B, K interrupt all
c- same as h


RO AK

g- safe, feels about -8~9?
h- KD
c- KD


RO A[K]

g- +10ish (lots; stuff like A+B and 6B interrupt AA)
h- KD
c- KD


RO B>RC

g- (launch) to guard, (launch) to RC A, *RC K TC starts late (loses to AA), WL window starts ~i18
h- stun into RC AB
c- same as h


RO K

g- ~-17 (launcher safe)
h- KD
c- KD


RO KK

g- safe, feels about -7~8?
h- KD
c- KD


RO KA

g- [spaces] ~-15 (pyrrah 236B punishes), *backsteps some punishment
h- KD
c- KD


LO A

g- safe, feels about -7~8?
h- [forces crouch] ~+0 (maxi WR A clash with pyrrah FC K)
c- same as h


LO AK

g- safe, feels about -9~10?
h- [forces opp BT if they block LO A] +6~7? (maxi 66B+K clash with pyrrah BB)
c- [forces opp BT] +10? (lots)


LO B>RC

g- (launch) to guard, (launch) to RC A, *RC K TC all high, RC B TJ all low
h- RC A ~i9 (just faster than AA speed)
c- stun into RC B


LO BK

g- -2~3 (maxi AA clash with pyrrah BB)
h- KD
c- KD


LO K

g- -13~14 (unsafe to pyrrah 2K but not 236B)
h- ~-4-5 (maxi FC 2A ~i18?)
c- same as h


RC A

g- safe, feels about -8~-9?
h- +4~5 (maxi 4B clash with pyrrah 6B)
c- +6~7 (maxi 66B+K just loses to pyrrah BB)


RC AB

g- safe, feels about -8~-9?
h- KD
c- KD


RC AB(BE)>LI

g- (launch) to guard, LI A, B, K interrupt all
h- LI A NC
c- same as h


RC B>LO

g- [forces crouch] (launch) to guard, LO B ~i16 (about BB speed), *LO K slow TC, LO A slow TC\step
h- ground stun into LO B
c- same as h


RC K

g- unsafe to launcher
h- KD
c- KD


RC KK

g- safe, feels about -8~-9?
h- KD
c- KD


BL A

g- launcher unsafe but backstep avoids a lot of punishment
h- -8~9?
c- same as h


BL B>LO

g- [spaces] (launch) to guard, (launch) to LO B, *spaces some retaliation, WL window starts extremely late
h- LO B ~i19? hard to tell due to spacing
c- same as h


BL BB>LO

g- (launch) to guard, (launch) to LO B, *LO B TC all fast highs, WL window starts ~i18
h- [forces crouch] LO B interrupt all, LO K ~i19 (about launcher speed)
c- same as h


BL K

g- launcher unsafe
h- ~-17 (unsafe to pyrrah 6A but not launcher)
c- same as h


BL KK

g- ~-15 (unsafe to pyrrah 2A but not BB)
h- KD
c- KD


LI A

g- launcher unsafe
h- KD
c- KD


LI B>LI

g- (launch) to guard, (launch) to LI A, *LI B steps\TC immediate vert\high retaliation but not delayed verts\highs
h- launch into LI A
c- same as h


LI (B)>LI

g- (launch) to guard, LI A & K interrupt all
h- launch into LI A
c- same as h


LI K

g- +5~6 (maxi 4B clash with pyrrah 2A)
h- STN
c- STN

(to be concluded below)
 
okay, so, that's the data out of the way. as i said at the beginning though, the question i was interested in was: what loops are viable? here are some of my conclusions using that data (and based on the 5-6 hours or so of offline play i've managed to get in so far). i'm interested to hear what other people think as well.

PSL order: RC-RO-BL-LI-LO-RC

PSL1 goes forwards through the order, PSL2 goes backwards through the order

loop transitions:

RC>RO_LO seems poor because of the difficulty of getting into RC at advantage. RC AB on block is good guard gauge already (breaks in 7) and has the godlike BE option in any case, so there's not much reason to loop away.

RO>BL gets you the BL mid\low mixup and can be done pretty easily with 1B>RO>PSL 1>BL B_K.

RO>RC gets you RC AB guard gauge damage and can also be done with 1B>RO>PSL 2>RC AB (full string breaks in 8**).

BL>LI doesn't seem worth it, since the LI stance is mostly just a mixup just like the BL stance is. if the transition confuses the opp though you could get them to block LI K.

BL>RO seems good since all RO options seem strong post-PSL: A is fast, B steps and hits hard, and K_KA is slow but mixes up and is mostly safe with big damage potential and good guard gauge damage***. this loop is easy to set up as well with 1B>RO A>BL>PSL 2>RO A_B_K.

LI>LO might be okay if the opp just blocks after an advantageous >LI transition if you don't want to risk the mixup and would rather just take the LO K poke attempt.

LI>BL same as the BL>LI transition, doesn't seem worth it unless you're trying to confuse the opp with the transition.

LO>RC seems like good guard gauge pressure, similar to the RO>RC transition. 4B>LO>PSL 1>RC AB breaks in 8**.

LO>LI gets you the LI mixup with 4B>LO>PSL 2>LI A_K, although you need to be careful not to start the string at max 4B range or the LI options will whiff.

**yes, you read that right. i tested this several times to make sure because it was so weird: 2A+B>RO>PSL 2>RC AB breaks in 7, but 1B>RO>PSL 2>RC AB and 4B>RO>PSL 2>RC AB both break in 8. the only thing i can think of is that there is some kind of guard gauge damage scaling.

***although there is an odd property about RO KK. it seems to do guard gauge damage equal to a "break in 8" move, but it does not seem to actually be able to trigger a guard crush. probably only certain moves have the ability to trigger a guard crush (like 6A+B).
 
FWIW, I think 6B4~G could be one of Maxi's best transitions to LI right now. According to the guide, it gives +8 on block going into LI, and LI A is pretty much uninterruptible. Moreover, LI K will either trade or straight-up beat most AAs, which in either case guarantees some big damage. To my knowledge, only Natsu's and Leixia's A (both i10) will stuff it. I think 2A interrupts, but they will probably have to be quick about it.
 
but is that the earliest cancel from 6B4 or all cancels? Frames were similar to that in SC4 on the earliest cancel, but that didn't even KD.
 
soakrates said:
FWIW, I think 6B4~G could be one of Maxi's best transitions to LI right now. According to the guide, it gives +8 on block going into LI, and LI A is pretty much uninterruptible. Moreover, LI K will either trade or straight-up beat most AAs, which in either case guarantees some big damage. To my knowledge, only Natsu's and Leixia's A (both i10) will stuff it. I think 2A interrupts, but they will probably have to be quick about it.
Click to expand...

wow, yeah, that seems to be correct. 6B4~G (earliest cancel) goes into LI at something like +6~7 (LI K clash with pyrrah AA) on guard and even more on hit. that's a pretty beefy transition, and it's okay at tracking step as well: the 6B4~G and LI K both only track slightly to maxi's right, but LI A seems to track 100% everywhere, even quick step! the 6B4 itself is a bit slow but maxi has ways to get adv into neutral. i'll add that to the list above.
 
howiplaythisgame said:
LI A seems to track 100% everywhere, even quick step! the 6B4 itself is a bit slow but maxi has ways to get adv into neutral. i'll add that to the list above.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I just did some more testing against Natsu, and LI A got a counter hit in this situation against every step in both directions, as well as back step. LI K loses to quick step and normal step but will catch 8WR in either direction. LI B is hella weird. It'll sometimes catch normal step and quick step going right, but it doesn't seem like there's any practical way to set it up.

Not sure if this will apply to other characters, since I believe Natsu has a significantly better step than most, but it's worth looking into.
 
Is it me, or are the transitions to each loop quicker. I wanted to attack in a loop and before I knew it, I was already transitioning into another loop where the attack came out. It's almost like you have to think faster and react faster. Which is nice, but does that translate into a faster looping Maxi?
 
You have to commit to the attack while in stance or he would keep looping away. You can no longer delay attacks in stance. Makes combos a little tricky, you have to 'sense' that you're going to hit otherwise you'll lose damage. eg RO B CH. Have to get used to that. I'm really enjoying WS B+K to be honest. RO is the hot sauce stance.

@howdoiplaythisgame
I'm going to make a separate thread for his pure soul loops, as this thread has become to over heavy with info, I would like the shifts front and centre and zeroed in for the newer players. So I shall make a new thread STRICTLY for the loop shifts, and have Dave sticky it.
 
As you know with Maxi, one move often leads to another from a different stance, etc. Once you are in a stance you can end up doing moves from every other stance by the time you have finished your offensive, though no stance move will end in RO. But that doesn't mean you cannot manipulate the string and force it into RO using PSL shifts (holding 2,4,6,8 between stance-ending moves). Presumably this shift would have to take place after a move hits in order to gain enough advantange to carry out the shift, and would the change be beneficial in the long run? Do you often find yourself in stances you would rather not be in?

Please list your favourite confusing strings and variations (doesn't have to combo) and/or the best time to change stance during a move-stance-move transition...

To get you guys thinking along the right lines...

Most Powerful Enders
LI aA+B+K = 63
RO A[K] = 50-60
RC KK = 53
LO AK = 51
RO KK = 49
BL KK = 46
RO KA = 43
BL kA+B+K = 45
RO AK = 41
RC AB = 40

Most Powerful Linkers
LI (B) ~LI = 50
BL BB~LO = 47
LI B~LI = 38
RC B~LO = 30
LO B~RC = 24
BL B~LO = 21

One last thing to consider when on the attack with Maxi (complete frame data would yield a quicker answer): which Enders have advantage on block in order to restart a string?

One final thing to get you thinking outside the box even more: what infinite loops exist with/without shifting stances before the op figures out how to break? I have already found 2 without any shifts--the opportunities with shifts must be endless:
1) WS B+K > BL BB > LO A > WS B+K...
2) LO B > RC B > LO B...
 
Interesting thread, though I recommend don't focus on long loops shifts in this game. Stances are risky so you want to keep them quick and dirty. I usually only do ONE shift and it's usually after 1B and 44B exclusively. Personally I tend to prefer heading to BL B or BL K BE mixup. If not I will cancel it. I do standalones A LOT.
AA is another one I'm trying to work into my game more. It is unsafe to i12 and faster, but those are usually HIGH attacks, and RC KK beats highs.
I also see that you have left out RO B completely, which is the STRONGEST attack you want to land because on any hit CH or not RC AB BE -> LI A BE is combo
You left out LO B as well, which is strong if you can get it to hit on CH
 
Small correction to first post. After RO B, WL will GI all mids i16 and slower from up close and i15 from tip range. This means most launchers can be aGIed.
 
Maxi-mum said:
Is it me, or are the transitions to each loop quicker. I wanted to attack in a loop and before I knew it, I was already transitioning into another loop where the attack came out. It's almost like you have to think faster and react faster. Which is nice, but does that translate into a faster looping Maxi?
Click to expand...

I'm experiencing the same thing. Thinking 5 steps ahead is still key to PSL games, it looks like its no longer hand and eye coordination. have to build it into muscle memory while playing maxi.
 
I just finished playing five games online. Even though my connection sucks, I still managed great games. They finally put together a decent netplay. On that note, I'm giving you guys my Xbox tag. Yes, I know, it's missing an A. It wouldn't fit in the box. I could have taken Maxi-mum, but then I didn't know this game was going to be good. So, I stuck with this. Add me up and we'll play some games.

"DancingNunchkus"
 
So far, only time I shift is after RC AB BE or 6A+B BE. --> [4] to mixup between LI A and BL KK so far it maintains that "if you've never seen maxi you're in trouble" quality ;)
 
One stance shift that has actually worked for me was 6A RO shift into LI A. People who get duck happy can get hit by the mid. It just works once, maybe twice if they get in the habit of trying to duck, hoping to punish before the RC AB.
 
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