Maxi suggestions for SC5

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Hot Rod Dave

"Saucy saucy minx"
Mr. Daishi

we here at 8wayrun are very excited and very grateful that you are working so hard to make the best Soul Calibur ever. We are very happy that you have decided to rely on the fans for input on the games outcome.

Here in the Maxi forum have been working very hard on what would make a great maxi. We have seen the gamplay of Maxi so far and are pleased with the results.

For the past 10 months, we have collectivly come up with a vast arrangment of suggestions that might make Maxi a viable, tournament worthy character to play with.

We also understand that not all suggestions are possible. Nor is it possible to please everybody. But the posters that have put in thier input are top notch, dedicated Maxi players. Guys that have been playing Maxi since SC1 and have grown with the progression of maxis move set and frame data. The changes over the years has had some drastic changes. Some in a great direction, others not so much.

If you please, we have worked very hard to put together a list of suggestions that might give you a great insight on what the real, hardcore maxi players want to see. Thank you in advance for taking time out of your busy schedules to read this. Any input you need from us is always at your disposal, and welcome any questions that you might have for us as well.

HRD
 

Hot Rod Dave

"Saucy saucy minx"
I wanna make RO A[K] cancel-able into RC/LI or canceled all together

would also be nice to have 4A+B cancel-able

Id like more tools to deal with steppers,

Id like 6BBB JF to be less strict or do more damage.

Keep A+B (BD Version) a small launcher and give more frame advantage to get at least a 66B+K in there.

Maxi lacks a good AA or BB. Both go into stance but I feel the would be better if there were a cancelable option that is relativly safe on block.

Fix the whiffing issues on 22_88A and RO A on the bigger characters (asta is the only one that comes to mind right now.) 22_88A & RO A tend to go right through them during moves such as astaroths 6K.

Give B+K BBBA JF better tracking and fix the whiffing issues of the A, for random reasons on smaller characters like Amy and X, and give the A a bit more forgiving

HRD
 

ZOMBIEBEAR666

[09] Warrior
If I think of more stuff I'll add to this list, expect to see it grow...
Buffs:
*2KB needs to be a NCC...
*A+B(2nd-hit) should combo into 6A, 66B+K would be a pretty broken combo...
*LI AA should be + on grd, and like +14 really, anybody blocking this now will be afraid like they should be...
*Replace 11A, his 1A is so much better...
*236A should be -12 on hit after canceling...
*Buff Maxi's tracking in general, please...
*Increase backstep distance...
*Give him a new JMP K...
*JMP B needs to be + on grd severly...
*BT B+K needs to safen up, it's a cool move but it's hampered by how unsafe it is...
Nerfs:
*LI B should be unsafe on cancel...
*First hit of 2KK*2KB needs to be less safe...
*BT B+K needs to deal less damage if it's gonna be safer...
 

Kvasir

[10] Knight
JF 6BBB does 50 damage on NH, 52 on CH. Also JF 6BBB last hit is high, but the opponent can't usually duck it after blocking the second hit. Sometimes it's possible, but as far as I can tell that's just caused by the 2nd hit not connecting properly (same issue that causes NC problems).

Anyway, the actual topic...

My opinion is that Maxi could basically make due with his current moves from neutral. Although most his throws, pokes and other basics leave things to be desired, he should make up for that with a strong stance game. The obvious problem in SC4 is that many stance situations have Maxi is putting himself into bad guessing games.

So I would buff:
RO B: If it were faster then that would put an end to a lot of TCs that shred RO now.
BL A: The range of this move is a serious problem for BL.
Stance GIs: They deserve a guaranteed follow up.
Stance throw: A low damage throw would fit Maxi well.

I don't expect anything like this to happen, but it's fun to dream.
 

whirow

[09] Warrior
I miss SC2's PSL4,
LO BK being mid and cancellable,
a good Low hit like the old 3B+K without having to go through a stance
a usable jump B
old 66A for closing in
the old 6A+B
RO B should at least be safe
Old RC KK would be nice, or at least NC like what everyone has
 

FunkeXMix

[09] Warrior
" whirow: LO BK being mid and cancellable" yeah this has to be done or some alternative. It would fix the faulty RC B (GB) move as well.
It has no safe cancel after first hit. Everything after it can be twarted with 2a except LO Bg or LO B,K but both are punishable with a 15 frame move or TC of at least the same since LO BK is high. This move feels faulty to me, why should a slow RC B (GB) put me at disadvantage with no safe exit out of the stances. What do you guys think? I would like your agreement in the end so that we can officially put LO BK from high to mid as our common request. We can put it in our datasheet and then administrators at 8wayrun can give it to Namco. Or make RC B (GB) safe on cancel.

I would also like to see more natural shifts into LI K. There's so very few moments where I can use it now since there's no good fast shift into it. Except for WR A+B LI K and ...hmm ok 4b LI K. LI Bg, LI K. A,A PSL1 LI K. But those are not usefull in tournament play, to slow.
 

KrayzieCD

[11] Champion
" whirow: LO BK being mid and cancellable" yeah this has to be done or some alternative. It would fix the faulty RC B (GB) move as well.
It has no safe cancel after first hit. Everything after it can be twarted with 2a except LO Bg or LO B,K but both are punishable with a 15 frame move or TC of at least the same since LO BK is high. This move feels faulty to me, why should a slow RC B (GB) put me at disadvantage with no safe exit out of the stances. What do you guys think? I would like your agreement in the end so that we can officially put LO BK from high to mid as our common request. We can put it in our datasheet and then administrators at 8wayrun can give it to Namco. Or make RC B (GB) safe on cancel.

I would also like to see more natural shifts into LI K. There's so very few moments where I can use it now since there's no good fast shift into it. Except for WR A+B LI K and ...hmm ok 4b LI K. LI Bg, LI K. A,A PSL1 LI K. But those are not usefull in tournament play, to slow.
I agree with the first paragraph totally. RC B (GB) doesn't leave you enough options. They should have made this move more like LI is. You can land the LI guard break and still cancel out of the stance safely. With RC B you are forced to make do in LO stance which is not hard for the opponent to deal with and you cannot cancel out of stance safely.

And funkeXMix I believe there is not much activity here because this version of Maxi was so weak that no one could really use him viably in tournaments, so his popularity went down. Most of the people who used him hardcore in 2 and 3 dropped him in this game. IMO his strongest forms were on SC1 and SC3, respectively. He wasn't as strong as the rest of the cast in SC2 but he had so many fun tools that people like myself still used him. This new version of Maxi suffers from the fact that he puts himself in a guessing game pretty much anytime he goes into stance. You find yourself doing moves where you have to guess your way out of taking damage. With the old Maxi you could utilize good, safe pokes to train your opponent to wait and then use loops to get big damage once they start waiting. In this version, all those good pokes are now in stances and even in stance they're a lot less safe. Pokes like 2A+K from SC3 which was a safe step killing low is now -18 WL A. 3B+K which was a quick safe low poke in SC1,2, and 3 is now BL B which also can't be cancelled from stance into block safely like it used to be. AA used to be an 11 frame high that could be safely cancelled into block. Now it's a lackluster 14 frame unsafe and pretty much useless move. B,B in SC3 console used to be uninterruptable and anyone who tried would eat 85 damage guaranteed. In this game they changed around the entire B series, gave us a BB that honestly sucks balls. No range, unsafe, etc.

I'll try to make a longer more detailed post later on talking about the changes they made that I feel hurt Maxi AND the changes I think were good. I'll name a few good changes now just so this doesn't seem like a totally negative post:

Firstly, I like the fact the the LI cancels are a lot faster than they were in SC3. The developers seemed to listen to our complaints about the LI cancels and gave us the option of cancelling back into LI or RO. Honestly though, I wish the transition to RO was a different imput than doing a late cancel of LI. Sometimes after charging up the LI and cancelling it I get RO moves afterwards when I was trying to go back into LI. Make that imput different enough so mistakes like that don't happen.

Secondly, I like the fact that they finally gave Maxi decent step. In SC2 and SC3 his step was pretty average or even less than average compared to the rest of the cast but finally now the man can move decently. It seems the cost of that though was less safe moves.

More later......
 

JAGTHEGEMINI

[12] Conqueror
Since i did this in the Asta-section too...

My whishes:

SCV Maxi buffs:

universal 2A i13 frame from neutral and crouch.
Old BBBK from SCIII
4BB better on Block like in former SC´s
SCII 6A+B plz!!
Tiger pounce(SCII 66A) back plz.
Switch RC kKK back to 22/88KKK and SCIV 22/88kk back to RCKK like it was in SCIII
AA i12
SCIII 2A+B and/or old 3B+K low pokes back.
Kb k slide input back. Maybe the SC(DC) version?
Both of Maxis throws should do at least 55 damage. In SCIV those 50 damage points are almost a joke. Or he should get a cm-throw finally with RO potential!!

SCV nerfs:

Nothing, ´cause SCIV Maxi is by far the worst Maxi ever.
 

Uber1337

[10] Knight
So glad to hear they're doing another Calibur. I hope they make Maxi good next game.

Heres just a quick list of changes I can think of off the top of my head:

- Give him the AA from BD. Maybe even make it i12.
- Give him his old B series back, or give him something completely different. Its really dumb Maxi just stands in place instead of moving forward with his BB.
- Give him a decent low poke. Either SCIII 2A+B or the old 3B+K.
- Fix 6B. The JF is so hard to do, and even if you do it, the move is so glitchy that your efforts may get you punished.
- Can we have a safe WR option? I end up just using 4B for WR but thats i18.
- Give us the BD 3B frames
- RO B should be safer and should give a combo on NH.
- BL A needs more range. BL in general could use a bit more safety. Maybe let us do BL Bg for a safe option.
- Either give us back the SCII PSL sidestep, or make the sidewinders shifts more useful. The way they are now, they are too slow and aren't evasive enough, and even if you do get around an attack, the transitions are so slow you barely get any damage for your efforts.
- A low damage throw from PSL would be awesome.
- Give us a new 8B. The current 8B is only good for laughs. Its an awful move. Give us a reasonably fast jumping mid. I really like his 8K for jumping slow lows, but it just sucks when you need to jump something quick like 2A and you're forced to do something unsafe like 236A to get damage for your guess.
- I want a new 66A. Its his only fast,mid, step covering 8wayrun move, but it just sucks so much because the second hit is duckable. You could even use the same move, but make the input 66AA, and give us an option of just doing the mid for a safe option.
- He needs better tech crouching pokes. 1B is decent, but it could use a slight speed buff, and the TC crouch frames should be fixed so that he doesn't stand up before the attack connects. He lacks a good Tech crouching horizontal. You could make it so 3Ag tracked a bit better and make it stay in TC. 3A the way it is now is a bit weak.
- The transition to RC after 4BB should either be faster, or just removed entirely. The way it is now is pretty useless. RC moves are so slow and the transition takes forever, so this pretty much never works against anyone good. If it was removed, it would at least make 4BB safer which would be nice.
Thats all I can think of now, but i'm sure i'll come up with some more stuff.
 

FunkeXMix

[09] Warrior
I agree with the move list improvements, but I have some ideas about how to improve the character that is Maxi more then his move list.
Make his step like Ivy and Hilde, it makes sense. He´s has trained his agility to overcome opponents that try to keep him of range. He should have the best stepping in SC5, he looks agile but he is actually slow. This would improve his image as a fast bruce lee inspired character and they could add taunting comments about his opponents not being fast enough. Fast situation to situation reaction with his strings is already necessary to play Maxi well and he has a very fluid dynamic feel, thats why I like playing him. I would like his movement to be faster compared to other characthers and more focus on avoidance type moves like Ivys eh..whats the input..214b. The TC verticals avoidance move. I think a focus on quickness and evade moves (that are usefull) with alot of agility and attitude is a natural buff in the next installment to what Maxi is about.
 

KrayzieCD

[11] Champion
Then it seems your at an empass at what you actually want, because from the sounds of it, you don't want to play Maxi. You want to play Amy in a Maxi suit.

-Idle
No, we want to play a game that gives a character a style and makes it good. If you want to emphasize looping so much, MAKE THE LOOPING WORTH FUCKING DOING! In this game it isn't. In previous games the way you make people respect the loops is to first train them using his strong pokes and being able to cancel out of loops safely. In this game you can't even do that because even his basic pokes suck. If you're gonna make the pokes suck, make the looping that much better.
 

KrayzieCD

[11] Champion
Please dont think Dustbuster represents 99% of ANY of us. He is a strictly ranked online player that has no bearing in this conversation IMO. I would love maxi to have "Amy" type properties.

HRD
Actually I think WuHT is agreeing with Dustbuster and Idlemind here. They all DON'T want Maxi to play like Amy or have Amy like properties. They think that somehow they can make Maxi a pure looping character with shitty basics somehow be competitive. And us Maxi mainers who've been playing the dude since SC1 are simply saying IT'S NOT FUCKING POSSIBLE! It hasn't been done yet and I doubt it ever will be. SC4 is the only SC where his basics were severely nerfed and we see where this iteration of Maxi stands in comparison to the the Maxis from the previous titles: At the fucking bottom.

I highly doubt the developers are gonna up his stance game so much, seeing that in every successive game they NERF his stance game. Think about it: In SC1 this looping moves had huge blockstun so you wouldn't dare interrupt, which resulted in him being top tier right behind Taki. So in SC2 they lesson the block stun and give him a bunch of cancels as well as the ability to use sidewinder loops. But they buffed step so much in that one that Maxi was forced to use a lot of pokes to keep people in check, so a lot of people complained that top Maxis played him just like a bread and butter AA, BB character. Well blame the system, not the player. So SC3 comes along but they remove a lot of Maxi's options out of loops like canceling and delays etc. Whatever, his main loop is still intact (B series). B RO A beats out attempting to sidestep after his B and any non tech crouching fast attacks after his B is blocked, while B into RO B is simply unbeatable by any option except sidestep. Getting hit by RO B in SC3 on CH guaranteed the full RO B LO BK string for 85 damage. Things like THAT will cause loops to be effective, the threat of that damage will make an opponent wary of trying to interrupt and give Maxi freedom to continue loops and different options. Well then SC4 comes along and what do they do? Get rid of his signature B and replace it with 3B to go into RO. Not only that but now he gets a short range BB that leaves him negative on block? For what? I never understood what they were trying to do with this Maxi in SC4 but whatever it was I think they failed horribly. If they wanted him to loop more they failed, because loops are worse than they ever were. The only thing they improved on for Maxi in this game IMO is his LI B{B} series. The cancel is better and faster than it's ever been, the option to go into RO or back into LI after the cancel is excellent, but the command needs to be easier and more consistent.

At this point I'm just waiting to see what they do with this style but IMO an 'excellent looping but sucky pokes' character will never be good.
 

KrayzieCD

[11] Champion
LOL I was playing SC1 this past weekend at fanime and goddamn if they gave A+B back it's old properties I would be spamming the shit out of that move. The same negative frames but has so much push back that even Sophie TAS B or Asta 66K/66B can't reach afterwards making the move safe. The move on block literally pushes you 3/4 of the way across the screen lol.
 

KrayzieCD

[11] Champion
JEsus Not to pick on you or anything but you REALLY Dont KNOW MAXI. SC3 MAxi sucked period. Wanna know why people liked him just because of the SC3standing low poke[SC4 B+KGI A].
Best SC3 move that should be in SCV is SC3 BB same properties.
Wrong!!! Yes, 2A+B was probably Maxi's best move but IMO they took out a lot more than just that move that made him into his shitty status in this game. All those moves that used to be able to be done from neutral that were inserted into stances is why SC4 Maxi pales in comparison to SC3 Maxi. The loss of being able to do 6bAA series and the fact that the series now goes unsafely into stance hurts a lot. His As in SC3 were 11 frames, imagine if he still had that? His B was a mid range 15 frame poke that lead into an uninterruptable RO B that guaranteed 85 fucking points of damage on a CH. All you wanna bring up is 2A+ fucking B???
 

KrayzieCD

[11] Champion
I think Namco has done good with getting rid of some useless stance moves over the years, mainly the BL A and BL B of SC1,2. SC4 BB is sadly one of those new pretty useless moves though. It doesn't have enough range to punish unsafes, using it on a blocking opponent means you have to guess your way out of taking damage, and it's just not good.
 

hotnikkelz

johNNy blaZe
I've noticed a lot of people are saying Maxi should be a character that should utilise loops at length, but to be honest. There was NO soul calibur where Maxi could do long loops safely. The differences between the series were his frame adv and disadvantage, and damage.
SC1 - strong basics, strong damage, tracked well a lot of unsafe and risky stuff eg LI B and LO BK, RO B
SC2 - Ok everything not really risky, but linear as hell. Step G system was problematic. Damage output was lower
SC3 - Very poke oriented, solid. Game was too broke so he couldn't really shine vs top tier anyway
SC4 - Like SC1, minus the damage, minus the good basics, minus well most things great :)

Maxi is all about playing balanced, u poke, u choose your spots to loop ad lockdown, SC1 was most forgiving cuz his sheer damage output was just massive, well worth the risk. If 4 4BBs landed u were pretty much dead, and that was a NC. It was faster and the range was more ridiculous too.
 

hotnikkelz

johNNy blaZe
Actually, i'd like to hear thoughts on how to encourage more empty looping to cause the opponent to freeze up (bump up the rewards while lowering the risk). It's one thing to attack non-stop (which is actually distasteful) but to be able to visually carry momentum and cause your opponent to freeze up with empty gestures is really awesome when done properly with maxi.
Hmm one way to do that is making a lot of his stance based moves cancellable in the beginning animations. In other words feints. Not along the lines of SC2 LO BK, but more along the lines of RC AG
 

soakrates

[09] Warrior
I think listing specific frame data is going to be a little tricky, so I'll just restate what I posted two pages ago with some addendum and reiterate that in general Maxi should advantage during stance and just enough annoying lows and safe, smaller damage moves and NCs to facilitate looping.

Returning moves:
- SC3 B series -- SC3 frames
- SC2 66A and 66aG -- Knocks down on hit, -8 on block
- SC3 2A+B -- SC3 frame data is fine.
- SC3 4A series -- Same as SC3
- SC3 Right Cross series -- Same as SC3
- SC2 236B~LI and 236bG -- Same as SC2, maybe slightly more disadv. on block

New or altered moves:
- Change 44AB to have multiple enders. 44AA would be the current 66A from SC3 and 4; second hit is high and can be ducked, but beats step. 44AB ends with a mid that can be stepped but gives Maxi advantage into RO on hit and block. Both NCC.

- A new command throw that does little damage but gives Maxi a big advantage (around +6) into a stance of your choice. Possible commands: 236A+G_B+G for RO and LO, 214A+G_B+G for BL and RC, and 41236A+G for LI.

- Give BL A enough range so that the theoretical BL A/BL B mixup from SC4 actually works.
 

Duragon

[09] Warrior
My list

-Throw from LI/RC
-Evades/Counters from stances
-Lunging attack that transitions into RO or LO. Similar to Anna's new knee attack in TTT2
-Unblockable from stance like Amy in SC4
-Auto parry active on first loop
-Cancels such as LO B,K~g from SC2
 
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