Missing character discussion

So then... As far as I can see you're trying to tell me Tekken characters failed Tekken so same must happen to Soul Calibur? I'm working on assumptions here seeing as you've offered me absolutely nothing to back yourself up.

I have no words for this, we shall have to agree to disagree then, I suppose I should have expected this... Mentioning balance in the casual forums... What was I thinking? Sorrys everyones.
 
Jrasta111 said:
So then... As far as I can see you're trying to tell me Tekken characters failed Tekken so same must happen to Soul Calibur? I'm working on assumptions here seeing as you've offered me absolutely nothing to back yourself up.
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So in other words, you didn't even take into consideration what I was saying.

Tekken 3-Set 16 years after Tekken 2. Featured replaced characters, and missing styles. Probably the most positively reviewed Tekken game till this day.

Tekken 4-Kazuya, Lee Chaolan, and Marshall Law returned, 2 year time skip, character was revamped (Jin), character slightly replaced (Eddy, yet he was an option no differently than Kuma/Panda)

Tekken 5-Ganryu, Baek, Bruce, Armor King, Jack, and Wang Jinrei returned, character replaced (Asuka replaced Jun, after Jin got his own style).

Tekken 6-Mainly new characters

Tekken Tag Tournament is a noncanon game when those who were replaced, or missing in canon games all return, notably the females (Jun, Michelle, Miharu, Kunimitsu) Also styles of returning veterans and some default characters (Julia) were revamped.

Now, look at how popular Tekken is in the fighting game community. My point exactly. Even after that 16 year time skip and characters being replaced, the series is still popular.

Soul Calibur....same thing Namco has slightly done before, but now it's drastic.

SC-Time skip, characters were replaced (Maxi takes Li Long spot even though their styles are different), and the game was still popular. Named one of the best Dreamcast games.

SC2-Another time skip, characters were intended on being replaced (Sophitia by Cassandra, Rock by Astaroth, Seong Mina by Kilik), but only 2 returned in the home versions anyways. One character takes another's spot (Hwang by Yunseong). I think the guest characters were a contributing factor as to why this game was so popular, but guest characters didn't affect the reviews of this game.

SC3-Where many of the replaced characters return, given it's short timeskip between SE and SC3, their aging is not that drastic anyways. Hwang and Li Long, however, are demoted to extra. Arcade version changes that.

SC4-Li Long and Hwang are absent, but Amy is upgraded.

SCV-Characters are replaced, some are revamped a bit (Aeon), 17 year timeskip. Gameplay was positively reviewed by many. Only problem was story and single player.

Knowing Namco, they'll do these following 1. Have some vets return (Zasalamel and Yunseong are a high possibility. Talim is also possible, and I hope Bangoo and Riki join the roster as well), and 2. Make a non-canon game where other vets can return.
 
Sure, let me hop into my time machine and... Oh wait, you never said that before did you.

Makes no difference, Tekken and Soul Calibur, totally different games. The communities only slightly cross over, more often than not people favour one or the other, the reasons TT2 was not as popular as the company hoped (and let's not pretend big companies have reasonable hopes these days) are a totally separate question.

You still haven't explained why having more characters added couldn't have worked for Soul Calibur. All you've done is state how it didn't work for Tekken. Bore me a little too. Clearly this is going nowhere.
 
Jrasta111 said:
You still haven't explained why having more characters added couldn't have worked for Soul Calibur. All you've done is state how it didn't work for Tekken. Bore me a little too. Clearly this is going nowhere.
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So what exactly do you mean by "more characters"? More new characters, and more veterans is a huge difference here.

If you're saying more veterans, as in "adding more veterans will increase the popularity of this game" then read, and I mean read, the above post.

If you're saying more new characters, maybe then I would agree with you, but Namco will either release an expansion or just move on till after PS4 is released.
 
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The reason to me is that with more characters in a game it's harder to balance said game if you include more characters. The more characters you include in a game the wider the game between tiers. This becomes even more apparent when the game's balance isn't even the main focus of the game. I also don't understand why you want more characters in a series where if you know one character you can play the majority of characters. 50% of the moves you use in high level play are just generic tools(2A, i14 punisher, 2K, generic 3B, most CEs, etc.) that nearly everyone in the cast has(minus Asta, Sieg, NM, and Zwei) anyways.

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All the characters that were introduced after SCI are just based on an earlier character, this series struggles at making unique characters. Setsuka, Zasalamel, Raphael, Tira, Hilde, Viola, Algol, and Zwei are the only original characters that aren't based off a SCI or SB foundation. It's funny that all the characters but one in the list are included after SCIII as well. SCII literally didn't introduce anything original except Raphael. Cassandra was meant to replace Sophitia but they decided to include both in the console version for some stupid reason. Yun is just a replacement for Hwang. Raphael is the only thing new in SCII. SCIII included 3 original characters though, a nice change. Too bad that was the worst SC ever for anyone who actually knew the mechanics of that game. SCIV had 2 original characters, SCV had 2 also.

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If PS isn't good at making original characters why do you want a large roster? Or do you just want a roster full of clones that play nearly the same. If that latter is the case you shouldn't be too worried since SC has always been a game where the characters are way too similar. More characters shouldn't be added, work should be done to diversify the current cast and balance them out even better than they are now since there is always room for improvement in that area. I would support your point if the cast were diverse enough from each other that each character required a different mindset. VF is a good example of a game that fits that bill. Each character in that game requires a different mindset to play at a high level(not that I am that great at VF at all). Well I might as well end this since I'm starting to get off topic.

Edit: I forgot Talim in my point about SCII. What I hate about the added styles in SCII is they both got nerfed to hell and Talim's even got removed for no reason. I don't even care for Talim but at least it's a different weapon type for the same playstyle most characters have in SCV(most of them are based on rushdown or rushing is just the best choice since spacing got nerfed to hell by the system changes).
 
Project Soul wanted to add more characters, but ...


http://www.4gamer.net/games/132/G013276/20111126002/
google translator [mode on] ;)

4Gamer:
The concept of each character is clearly defined.
Daishi ::
Yes. For SC V characters that do not appear are characters whose concept was not clear - of course it does not the only reason. For example, a character like Ivy is a winner both in terms of concept and design. It is impossible to create a character of this type can exceed it. So if it was up to me, I think it will always cast party in the future.
Hisaharu:
It should only take into account the look of the character, but also think that the public is for this character. The Soulcalibur series has been popular in Korea, and we have time to create characters typical for the Korean public. Anyway, there are characters that we really wanted to see in the game, but could not be held narrowly. It would be nice to see from the VI.
 
jtdam09 said:
So what exactly do you mean by "more characters"? More new characters, and more veterans is a huge difference here.

If you're saying more veterans, as in "adding more veterans will increase the popularity of this game" then read, and I mean read, the above post.

If you're saying more new characters, maybe then I would agree with you, but Namco will either release an expansion or just move on till after PS4 is released.
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Well I think you're slightly mistaken and missing my point when you point out this difference between veterans and new characters. Tekken veterans are not Soul Calibur veterans. There are not many completely new styles in SCV, correct me if I'm wrong when I say this please, but they are not very popular.

I don't really think new characters would have much to add, I think there's a fair percentage of alienated fans out there, veterans might revive their interest. Tekken never encountered such a situation. Veterans would probably be easier for the developers to implement too.

I never said how many characters I wanted, even who, I merely suggested it might've been a good idea to add at least one if not more. More characters that more people are comfortable with will make them more comfortable competing, though new characters could still have their place, just not too many at once.
 
Solo said:
SCII literally didn't introduce anything original except Raphael. Cassandra was meant to replace Sophitia but they decided to include both in the console version for some stupid reason. Yun is just a replacement for Hwang. Raphael is the only thing new in SCII.
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Ahem... you forgot Talim lol.

Anyway, I also agree that a large roster isn't the best thing if there's going to be clones. I'm really liking the path they were taking with SCV by just having one weapon style until they added the 3 mimics and the three Swords and Shields when instead, we could have gotten a new and more refreshing style to add along with Zwei and Viola, or have Hwang Yun-boy, Zas, Talim and Bangoooooooo.

But if it's going to be a diverse roster where every character is very unique and different, I'm all for it. Though it shouldn't be too big since balancing would be a pain in the butt and it'd be better for the casual side where the relationships for all of them were most focused and developed.

To summarize, I feel that if the roster was too big, the less time will be spent on each individual char and fleshing them out and it's harder to balance gameplay and we might get chars starting to play similar to each other (>-O_O-)
 
Jrasta111 said:
Am I wrong when I say that more characters would bring some hype back into this game and give more people more reasons to play regardless of whether or not they get a short cutscene and a paragraph or two at the end of arcade mode? Did anyone even care about that at all come to think of it?

Think about it, you played it, you didn't play it for no reason no matter how agrieved you feel about the lack of explanation from the game's creators. I mean as long as the game is good...

But whatever, I know how it is, we all want to see our favourite characters get where they're going after all. But while you're actually playing the game, none of that really matters, you are that character. Where they're going is where you're going. So yeah, I see how them going seemingly nowhere in the end, is kind of depressing.
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Accually this is the most stupidest thing that the new SC team had ever done, but I think this might be a commercial leverage. When we are making SC ~ SCIV the stupidest thing we've ever done is simply make new characters appear in the game at the wrong time, For example Zasalamel, he should be made in Soul Calibur 1, but he came out at soul calibur 3, also other characters too ( by the way this is also commercial leverage ) so this is just me saying, it might be a commercial leverage it might not be.
 
darkwings13 said:
Ahem... you forgot Talim lol.
Ah, my bad. I tend to forget about her. I'll edit my original post.
Anyway, I also agree that a large roster isn't the best thing if there's going to be clones. I'm really liking the path they were taking with SCV by just having one weapon style until they added the 3 mimics and the three Swords and Shields when instead, we could have gotten a new and more refreshing style to add along with Zwei and Viola, or have Hwang Yun-boy, Zas, Talim and Bangoooooooo.
I agree with the 3 mimic thing but SC has had 3 S&S characters in each game since SCII. That's the reason I thought it was stupid that they added Sophitia in the console version of SCII because originally there were only going to be 2 S&S. There have been 3 S&S characters ever since(Lizardman is based off of Sophitia).
But if it's going to be a diverse roster where every character is very unique and different, I'm all for it. Though it shouldn't be too big since balancing would be a pain in the butt and it'd be better for the casual side where the relationships for all of them were most focused and developed.
I think they should go for it anyways. I shouldn't be able to play every character with the same mindset.
To summarize, I feel that if the roster was too big, the less time will be spent on each individual char and fleshing them out and it's harder to balance gameplay and we might get chars starting to play similar to each other (>-O_O-)
I agree but SCV already has the problem with characters being too similar. Why do you think people can just learn characters in just a week or so? They're already very similar to the point you can easily switch characters even after only playing one for a long time.
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Crash said:
Accually this is the most stupidest thing that the new SC team had ever done, but I think this might be a commercial leverage. When we are making SC ~ SCIV the stupidest thing we've ever done is simply make new characters appear in the game at the wrong time, For example Zasalamel, he should be made in Soul Calibur 1, but he came out at soul calibur 3, also other characters too ( by the way this is also commercial leverage ) so this is just me saying, it might be a commercial leverage it might not be.
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Your example, Zasalamel, is the best one. Regardless of all that you've said against his sudden appearance. He complements my own point rather well I think.

He is unique, he offers a play-style that is fundamentally different from all the other characters, frankly I'm a little surprised people here are still going on about clones at this point. There haven't been any cloned characters (mimics or CAS types don't count) for a long time.

Soul Calibur 3 had a massive roster compared to the others along with the various CAS options that were new at the time. This and the various glitches were confusing to the larger and more inexperienced part of the player base at the time and that probably explains why it didn't do so well competitively compared to the more streamlined casts of Soul Calibur 4 and 5.

Take a closer look at Tekken Tag Tournament 2. If that isn't confusing to any size player base I don't know what is. This is why I said not too many at once. Make sure players have their chance to learn effectively without being constantly surprised or overwhelmed by better characters or players they don't know. Players do like to make up excuses for losing and they have vivid imaginations. This is where the single player modes and the story elements come into play.

They do need improving, but I do think giving players some time with additional characters could've worked, even without arcade mode endings and a more complete story mode. Unfortunately at this point I'm not sure any of that matters. I'm not so sure people will accept much less than a complete package at this point, if just the additional characters ever had a shot at all, but dwelling on that won't make it any better.

Ignoring that then the most unique characters like Zasalamel might just be good enough though. If I were to suggest some more it would be Yun-Seong or Hwang/Assassin, Cassandra or even Sophitia and Seong Mina or maybe Rock. Those last two in particular always had a hard time getting in, so maybe more completely new characters like say Bangoo is a better bet, there's always Talim.

The story elements look more essential everyday we wait, which does not help their cause without them, so without completing the stories of every character including any additions (maybe add some new match modes too)... I'm not so sure people will want to buy into it let alone back into it. Not to mention all this clone talk on top of everything. If there's one thing I'm definitely not saying, it's that it would've been easy, but worth it in the end? Well, I always hoped it could be, but I guess really I just wanted to play Lizardman again (but don't forget to give him back his hat)... Here's hoping.

And The Apprentice too... But if they give just his style to another character I'll never forgive them... Probably
 
Jrasta111 said:
Well I think you're slightly mistaken and missing my point when you point out this difference between veterans and new characters. Tekken veterans are not Soul Calibur veterans. There are not many completely new styles in SCV, correct me if I'm wrong when I say this please, but they are not very popular.
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Not popular? Are you sure about that?

But popular or not, veterans are veterans.
Am I being trolled or something?

Solo said:
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I also think most of that has to do with the technical aspects as well, and the need of creating something diverse for the series. That I do see PS trying to do with this series, but SC, like SF and DOA, can be a mixed crowd. They have their characters meant to play differently than others in the technical aspect (Viola, ZWEI, Alpha Patroklos, Astaroth), but then the fighting style itself plays a redeeming factor. Even some that have the same playstyle could have differences because of the fighting style itself (Mitsurugi & Leixia).

Tekken doesn't care much about the technical aspects as of late. They care more about the fighting style, or distances (Christie and Eddy).

Jrasta111 said:
I don't really think new characters would have much to add, I think there's a fair percentage of alienated fans out there, veterans might revive their interest. Tekken never encountered such a situation. Veterans would probably be easier for the developers to implement too.
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So where were you when Tekken 5, Tekken 6, and Tekken Tag Tournament 2 were released/being announced, because new characters were coming left and right and veterans either returned or remained missing and not one care was given. Tekken Tag Tournament 2 uses the term "non-canon" to bring veterans back into the series, but watch when Tekken 7 comes along. You really think Jun, Michelle, and some others will return in the canon games?

Now saying new characters don't add much. That's definitely you being subjective.
 
jtdam09 said:
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For me SCV characters come in 3 groups: Normal character(aka rush all day Ex. Pat, Natsu, Maxi, etc.), slow characters(NM, Sieg, and Asta), and characters that just suck(Zwei and Raph). The first two groups of characters require two different mindsets to play. The first group is filled with characters that have all the generic tools of the next guy and have minor differences between them. The main difference is their animations or the range of their moves, but the range doesn't matter since this group is just rushdown all day and zerg on wake up. The second group is filled with characters that don't have the generic tools that others have. They would space people out but the spacing game got nerfed by system changes. These character's are more about risk/reward but the risk far outweighs the reward. The third group needs major rework through some kind of patch. I think PS made some of the characters bad on purpose. How can Raph be that shitty and it not be on purpose? Why does Ein have cooldown but Viola's orb doesn't? If you can find a good answer for that will make my day.
 
*sigh* read what I said and you'll find it's you who's being subjective. I said 'I don't really think new characters would have much to add' just to be clear. This is clearly subjective, it is not in anyway stated as an absolute, it's just an observation.

You're still acting as if the way people receive (more like are bombarded with) Tekken characters is the same as the way the Soul Calibur characters might have been received... They are not the same thing in any way. To say they are is the definition of being subjective.

But I've said all I care to say already. But come on one of the new styles is just disallowed, another is banned in France, what's it going to take to convince you... Forget it.
 
Hmm...after that Sophitia knock off appeared I really dunno, I mean Elysyum could be any character is not like the story would suffer so many changes any scantily clad angel woman would do.

My point is, PS know characters models does sell, so imagine how hyper would fanboys go if the next Soul Calibur have returning Taki and Seong-Mina or Sophitia, why you ask those were original characters, while the three originals styles are most likely to come as successors.

Selling games is all about selling people.
 
Ramus said:
Selling games is all about selling people.
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Which is bull if you ask me, but Sonic and Mario do sell, but at least that's because their respective games revolve around them as the hero. Without them, there wouldn't be much of a game if the title character isn't there.

Soul Calibur, however, revolves around the swords. No swords/effect from the swords (Malfested), No plot. These characters are only affected by it. Some stronger than others.

But I guess it's because I don't put these characters on a "pedestal of popularity and tiers" and treat them equally, that I feel this way.

Besides, many base popularity off of their history in the game, which to me isn't fair for the new characters since this is their first game. They've never had their time to mature or develop as characters like the veterans have been able to do.
 
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