Mitsurugi Matchups Chart

[Belial]

Algol - 4/6
Amy - 6/4
Astaroth - 6/4
Cassandra - 4/6
Cervantes - 4/6
Darth Vader - 6/4
Hilde - 2/8
Ivy - 4/6
Kilik - 4/6
Lizard - 6/4
Maxi - 7/3
Nightmare - 6/4
Raphael - 4/6
Rock - 7/3
Mina - 6/4
Sestuka - 4/6
Siegfried - 6/4
Sophitia - 4/6
Taki - 4/6
Talim - 7/3
Apprentice -
Tira - 6/4
Voldo - 3/7
Xianghua - 5/5
Yoda -
Yoshitmitsu - 6/4
YunSeong - 7/3
Zasalamel - 4/6

 

[tresto]

hey belial
this is interesting. i'm kind of surprised in sophitia 6:4. don't her badass punishments balance the matchup (and A+B autogi) ? same for voldo, he's like so powerful in SC4 ! Voldo's advantage is not BS A+B only, his general game has big range and big damage
waiting for more !

 

[lolo]

Hi, I would like to argue on some Yoshi facts...
Yohimitsu
Advantages:
- Stances are abusable against Yoshi, b/c he has no good answers to MST and has to take risks against RLC.
*** MST isn´t super strong that I know, he doesn´t even have the auto GI that he used to had, so any interrupter will do the work as well as any other character, or is there any hit that leads to MST with adv?. And RLC´s only safe move is RLC K, good luck winning with that kick, sure there is the CH combo, but good luck on doing that kick on CH.
RLC B, can be punished with 6K2K, and we RLC A is punished with 1K just guarding the first one, for up to 92 dmg...***
- Your ranged pokes and CH game are abusable against yoshi.
***I need u to clarify this, I don´t know what u mean, if by CH game u mean... hitting with 3A (one of best Mitsu moves, I´ll admit that), or what do u mean with CH game***
- MST crouches through iMCF. 66K jumps iMCF allowing to press the adv in many situations. = iMCF doesnt affect your basic game as much as vs other characters.
***Can anyone in reaction evade a ¡9 special mid with a stance?.... that´s amazing. iMCF doesn´t affect your game if you are not in range, otherwise, I don´t see how the fastest move in the game wouldn´t affect anyones game.***
- 214A doesnt evade most of your usable mids and 2KB (it still evades 66K and BB)
***Since 214A is most used for evading highs and grabs, evading some verticals is really extra, for example, RLC A, that can be evaded with 214A after the first hit is guarded, and it´s easy, is not like super tight.***
- Yoshi has no particularly powerful punishment for 2KB.
*** You´re right on this one, 3B combo or 6k2k is not enough punishment, I mean, what´s a 60 dmg combo or 50 combo.***

Well, in Yoshi chart there are few chars with 7/3 to me for Yoshi, but Mitsu is one of them, RLC B, 3B, RLC A, k:B, and a long etc, can be punished really bad, well, not too bad if u don´t mind getting 50 dmg anytime u try any of those moves.
Aside from Yoshi punishing lots of Mitsu´s moves, speed is on his side, not to mention RO game.
Yoshi shouldn´t abuse of FC 3K , or DGF K (I use DGF K to evade lows and punish them, for example, Takis bombs, guard the first, DGF the second)... And with FC 3K is the same story, I know lots of Yoshi players abuse these two, but don´t expect that on really good Yoshis.
Anyway, I really disagree on the chars that I know, I don´t see how a Maxi can be raped by a Mitsu... Or being 6/4 against Sophi that can punish him so well, 6/4 to Safemy.

So, I did this here, and hope you learn something on other characters as well, I would like to see something similar on Yoshi´s char, I´ll be able to learn things that I don´t know about other chars.

 

[Something-Unique]

Belial I have seen some of ur vids and u indeed have a sick Mitsu. The only Mitsu I can think off that's just as good if not better off the top of my head is Rekki here in the states.

The main reason i'm posting is because I notice u have Mitsurugi vs. Hilde at a 2/8 and Mitsurugi vs. Kilik at a 5/5. Your list looks generally competent and ur a skilled player so i'm wondering why in particualr u have Mitsu even with Kilik when Kilik and Hilde generally thrive off the same weaknesses that Mitsu has. For reference I have Kilik vs. Mitsu at a 6/4 and I would probably agree with u on Hilde vs. Mitsurugi 8/2 in Hilde's favor if not 7/3.

 

[Super__Villain]

And RLC´s only safe move is RLC K, good luck winning with that kick, sure there is the CH combo, but good luck on doing that kick on CH.
RLC B, can be punished with 6K2K, and we RLC A is punished with 1K just guarding the first one, for up to 92 dmg...***

Relic's kick is safe? Maybe if all you're doing is holding block when you see someone bust out relic, but if they read that you're in a world of hurt with the unblockable. Also, good luck punishing relic~ when they follow it with a mist

Anyway, I really disagree on the chars that I know, I don´t see how a Maxi can be raped by a Mitsu... Or being 6/4 against Sophi that can punish him so well, 6/4 to Safemy.

As far as Maxi v. Mits, let's just say Mitsurugi's interrupts vvvery nicely.
IMO any character matchup ratings are biased predisposedly, every player has their own set knowledge of how to block and dodge certain characters, they also have a set knowledge of move properties with certain characters.

If I were making matchup ratings they would be different than these posted, so would yours. That's the nature of opinion. In example:

Kilik - 5/5

I would say it's more like 8/2 or 9/1 in Mits' favor, but then again I fight a lot of Kilik's and dodging and punishing simultaneously against his onslaught of scrubby spam-happy fanboys has become second nature, which is also the cause of my demise from a Kilik who breaks the mold.

Either way there's no REAL way to accurately depict this as it turns into more of an "I'm this good at fighting these characters with this character," and is a reflection of the user.

 

[HajimeOwari]

Relic's kick is safe? Maybe if all you're doing is holding block when you see someone bust out relic, but if they read that you're in a world of hurt with the unblockable. Also, good luck punishing relic~ when they follow it with a mist

You mean that highly visible UB that anyone in their right mind would interrupt on sight?

And you're kidding, right? Yoshi can punish Relic [A] on block with 6K2K. All characters can punish it. =/

 

[Salizburg]

I would say it's more like 8/2 or 9/1 in Mits' favor, but then again I fight a lot of Kilik's and dodging and punishing simultaneously against his onslaught of scrubby spam-happy fanboys has become second nature, which is also the cause of my demise from a Kilik who breaks the mold.

Either way there's no REAL way to accurately depict this as it turns into more of an "I'm this good at fighting these characters with this character," and is a reflection of the user.

Scrubs are scrubs and they suck, so they aren't included in matchup disscusions. ;)

Also, matchups aren't meant to be some irrefutable divine law once they're set down; if someone says Amy vs. Ivy is 6:4 in favour of Amy, they're not trying to say the Ivy player will always lose 6 matches out of 10. I imagine these matchups are mostly meant for tournament play, to tell you how hard you will need to work with character A to beat character B, based on the tools at their disposal, and to give other players ideas and strategies for dealing with character B while using character A. Stuff like that.

 

[lolo]

. Also, good luck punishing relic~ when they follow it with a mist

I guess I got lucky then :) , look at 1:43

Also, matchups aren't meant to be some irrefutable divine law once they're set down; if someone says Amy vs. Ivy is 6:4 in favour of Amy, they're not trying to say the Ivy player will always lose 6 matches out of 10. I imagine these matchups are mostly meant for tournament play, to tell you how hard you will need to work with character A to beat character B, based on the tools at their disposal, and to give other players ideas and strategies for dealing with character B while using character A. Stuff like that.

I couldn´t describe it better, strenghts and weakness, the strategie depends completely on the user, that´s why I want othe chars players, go to Yoshi Match up chart and argue in some facts, that I may be wrong.

 

[Belial]

lolo:

Advantages:
*** MST isn´t super strong that I know, he doesn´t even have the auto GI that he used to had, so any interrupter will do the work as well as any other character, or is there any hit that leads to MST with adv?. And RLC´s only safe move is RLC K, good luck winning with that kick, sure there is the CH combo, but good luck on doing that kick on CH.
RLC B, can be punished with 6K2K, and we RLC A is punished with 1K just guarding the first one, for up to 92 dmg...***

In my opinion theory talk like "I punish you for this and that" doesnt work. Either you can put up active defence (using a moves to interrupt or evade/punish) or you fail vs stance. I dont want to go through all that again, you can review some old vids on our youtube channel page (and yea I know its not perfect, but who is?), the point is there are way too much options in stance to sucessfully counter them all by simple anticipation/turtling. Player I play vs duck second hit of RLC A and MST KB and punish for ex with setsu B+K (~90 dmg) now that might be a rewarding turtling. but not many characters can. Some like setsuka or cervy can give a hard time interrupting with iGDR or iFC3aB etc. But yoshi has no real choice but to guess correctly and this guessing is not in his favor - getting nearly same dmg as he recieves guessed wrong.

***I need u to clarify this, I don´t know what u mean, if by CH game u mean... hitting with 3A (one of best Mitsu moves, I´ll admit that), or what do u mean with CH game***

b6 especially as well as 4A or even 3A and b:A are all very good vs yoshi b/c he lacks range. b6 can basically force him into spacing or ducking in anticipation, than you can enter in mixup range with mst.

***Can anyone in reaction evade a ¡9 special mid with a stance?.... that´s amazing. iMCF doesn´t affect your game if you are not in range, otherwise, I don´t see how the fastest move in the game wouldn´t affect anyones game.***

Not on reaction. You throw iMCF to stop a mixup forced on you at disadvantage otherwise there is no point. If you dont do it right away you lose the advantage needed for CH interrupt. So if you throw it out and I go into MST you get nothing and I get punishment. If you dont do iMCF I get a MST mixup on you. when other characters have to do for ex TJ move only to get it stepped or blocked. Mitsu can go on with offence.

***Since 214A is most used for evading highs and grabs, evading some verticals is really extra, for example, RLC A, that can be evaded with 214A after the first hit is guarded, and it´s easy, is not like super tight.***

nothing ever goes as perfect in reality. you throw it out and the move just doesnt happen to be a grab or high. And then it matters if other moves get evaded by 214A. So in my opinion 2KB or 3A not being evaded is great b/c I dont need any extra counters to 214A.

tresto imo sophitia sucks :) she cant do much except her punishment, maybe its 5/5 b/c of her aGI but unlike amy's aGI it doesnt have a guaranteed followup. overall such a limited character as sophitia. that have no mixups at all cant be good, unless you spam 66BB vs her (that is punished by double tas B for 50%) sophitia is troublesome for characters who deal little damage or characters who need to center their game around unsafes (like cervy) but mitsu has many safe tools, she will eventually have to resort to playing unsafe in the end. But. its not like I'm 100% sure.

Something unique: thank you for you high estimate of my gameplay. The reason I have it listed as 5/5 b/c my practice is very limited against kilik. I normally dont do list based on limited experience, but made an exception here. In theory mitsu has lots of range and kilik doesnt have great tools to punish him. but of course kilik is more powerful generally. So you are probably correct on 6/4.

 

[lolo]

lolo:


In my opinion theory talk like "I punish you for this and that" doesnt work. Either you can put up active defence (using a moves to interrupt or evade/punish) or you fail vs stance. I dont want to go through all that again, you can review some old vids on our youtube channel page (and yea I know its not perfect, but who is?), the point is there are way too much options in stance to sucessfully counter them all by simple anticipation/turtling. Player I play vs duck second hit of RLC A and MST KB and punish for ex with setsu B+K (~90 dmg) now that might be a rewarding turtling. but not many characters can. Some like setsuka or cervy can give a hard time interrupting with iGDR or iFC3aB etc. But yoshi has no real choice but to guess correctly and this guessing is not in his favor - getting nearly same dmg as he recieves guessed wrong.


b6 especially as well as 4A or even 3A and b:A are all very good vs yoshi b/c he lacks range. b6 can basically force him into spacing or ducking in anticipation, than you can enter in mixup range with mst.

Not on reaction. You throw iMCF to stop a mixup forced on you at disadvantage otherwise there is no point. If you dont do it right away you lose the advantage needed for CH interrupt. So if you throw it out and I go into MST you get nothing and I get punishment. If you dont do iMCF I get a MST mixup on you. when other characters have to do for ex TJ move only to get it stepped or blocked. Mitsu can go on with offence.

nothing ever goes as perfect in reality. you throw it out and the move just doesnt happen to be a grab or high. And then it matters if other moves get evaded by 214A. So in my opinion 2KB or 3A not being evaded is great b/c I dont need any extra counters to 214A.

OK, I see... You first said that "Yoshi has no particularly powerful punishment for 2KB", and now you say that "In my opinion theory talk like "I punish you for this and that" doesnt work" (After seeing how bad can be punished by Yoshi), that´s a good start...
In the weakness section of Mitsu, you said "No good unsafety punishment until i18", so now I´m confused, the punishing abilty of a character must be considered or don´t?, because you said it´s a Mitsu weakness and I say it´s Yoshi strenght.
Anyway I see you don´t know Yoshi at all, iMCF is an interruper, but it´s not his only interruper, 3K is like have a ranged 2A with good tracking, is ¡14 too, AA is ¡11, a:B+K is ¡12 and has a small window to evade highs and has decent range.
And iMCF can be mixed in lots of frame traps, that against a slow character like mitsu are really effective, 6A against Mitsu is having +2 and is ¡15.
Long ranged characters can be sometimes a problem to Yoshi, but Mitsu isn´t a long ranged char that I know, I don´t see any adv on this for Mitsu.
I would like some solid facts about how Mitsu is a bad match up for Yoshi, B6 is good but it´s not a killer move, Yoshi has his own version tough, 3 frames slower, but can lead to high dmg and long RO´s.

 

[Belial]

lolo:

OK, I see... You first said that "Yoshi has no particularly powerful punishment for 2KB", and now you say that "In my opinion theory talk like "I punish you for this and that" doesnt work" (After seeing how bad can be punished by Yoshi), that´s a good start...

I was talking about stance, in theory you can punish a lot of moves from stance, but in reality if you try to sit out waiting for a chance to punish it wont work.

In the weakness section of Mitsu, you said "No good unsafety punishment until i18", so now I´m confused, the punishing abilty of a character must be considered or don´t?, because you said it´s a Mitsu weakness and I say it´s Yoshi strenght.

And if you read the vs yoshi description you will see I list his ability to punish mitsu as one of Yoshi's strengths in this matchup.

Anyway I see you don´t know Yoshi at all, iMCF is an interruper, but it´s not his only interruper, 3K is like have a ranged 2A with good tracking, is ¡14 too, AA is ¡11, a:B+K is ¡12 and has a small window to evade highs and has decent range.

My previous post was only related to iMCF, I was refering how mst can duck imcf reliably and affect yoshi usage of one of the most important tools. I dont see how 3K, AA etc are related here.

And iMCF can be mixed in lots of frame traps, that against a slow character like mitsu are really effective, 6A against Mitsu is having +2 and is ¡15.

Like I said above in every this setup 6B+K~MST beats AND punishes iMCF with MST 6B for ~70 dmg.
6A is -3 on block both vs mitsu and everyone else. Yoshi's 2A will lose to mitsu 2A etc. there is nothing else to it, and never will be.

 

[Super__Villain]

You mean that highly visible UB that anyone in their right mind would interrupt on sight?

And you're kidding, right? Yoshi can punish Relic [A] on block with 6K2K. All characters can punish it. =/

Are we talking offline here? The relic UB is fairly visible, offline I crouch to a while rising so there's no chance of it hitting me, but being a timed move interruption doesn't always work the best online. I still say that the kick is not that safe unless the opponent is stuck in a stand still block, and I say that only because of it's slothliness.

You're not a bad Yoshi from what I've seen, even though a lot of that is in Training Mode, we had a slight misunderstanding of punishing Relic on block, I thought you meant you blocked both hits. You're right, any move that tech crouches could punish Mits if executed mid attack. I might have understood you had I been more familiar with Yoshi's move list.

 

[Belial]

Relic UB shouldnt work used upclose, it has to be set up range dependant when its harder to adapt and punish it.
also rlc GB lvl 1 has two versions. the invisible (no GC animation) if you single tap A+B and visible one that happens if you hold A+B, not too much but can add up to the confusion certainly.

Like Hajime said RLC A is punishable on block both if mitsu enters MST and if he doesnt. you cannot interrupt 6K with MST B here b/c it will TC.

 

[HajimeOwari]

Belial: MST 6B is not free after a whiffed iMCF on all practical setups. Exactly what setup are you referring to? I know you play OYM. What setup for iMCF does he commonly use that allows him to get hit like that?

 

[Belial]

Hajime: Actually every setup. If mst ducks through iMCF MST 6B is guaranteed if you do it right away. MST will duck through iMCF only when yoshi is at a disadvantage though. for ex
BB blck, 6A blck, 2K hit.
or mitsurugis moves like 66K , BB etc on hit.

edit: if you know of any where its not I'm very interested to hear about those, I think I've tested them all.

 

[HajimeOwari]

Belial. I just tested it before I posted above. It doesn't work. In fact, if I 2K, RCC iMCF, the iMCF will hit on CH against 6B+K, MST 6B. The only setup that it's guaranteed on is BB (block), iMCF which is highly dangerous.

 

[lolo]

Hajime: Actually every setup. If mst ducks through iMCF MST 6B is guaranteed if you do it right away. MST will duck through iMCF only when yoshi is at a disadvantage though. for ex
BB blck, 6A blck, 2K hit.
or mitsurugis moves like 66K , BB etc on hit.

edit: if you know of any where its not I'm very interested to hear about those, I think I've tested them all.

Hey Belial, it´s cool to evade iMCF with MST, even tough there´s only one thing guaranteed after a whiffed iMCF, look for it and come back with the answer.
OK, I´m giving u a tip, it deals like 18 dmg, not a really big punisher for the big risk.

 

[Belial]

Hajime: You are not doing RCC iMCF fast enough (but its like super difficult to do it though), try the same 2K with normal MCF. if you do iMCF too slow after 2K it will not beat 2A interrupts, only if opp is unaware of this setup it will work. But after 2K hits 66K is a better solution than MST I think, b/c yoshi FC is not great.
_________________________________________
====== DOUBLE POST AUTO-MERGE ======
lolo: if MST goes through iMCF MST 6B is always guaranteed if you do it right away. You cannot detect if iMCF wiffed, maybe thats why you're not getting results right.

 

[HajimeOwari]

Belial: I gave that as an example. And I am doing it fast enough. I can RCC iMCF consistently. =/ And it consistently gets a CH. Again, specifically what setup are you referring to where 6B+K evades iMCF AND gives a free MST 6B because it is not guaranteed on any safe, smart setup.

 

[Belial]

MST will not punish iMCF if it comes out at i13 or under (iMCF speed + block/hit stun)

For ex
6A blk (-3) into i9~i10 iMCF is technically safe against MST evade 6B (ex where 6A iMCF interrupts mitsu 2A (i14) attempt)
any -4 for yoshi into i9 iMCF is safe, but i10 (and slower) iMCF will get punished by MST 6B. et cetera ( ex where 4B (-4) -> iMCF trades with mitsu ws K (i14))

I dont know if its possible to i9 iMCF in a match. I assume its not. OyM only gets i10~11 most of the time and he's like a robot with it.

as for 2K rcc iMCF... i'm not sure when exactly MST evasion closes, but at i19 its still active, so post 2K you need to spend over at least 6 frames to rcc and iMCF for it to score a CH on opp doing 6B+K~MST 6B. So like I said you're not doing it fast enough.