Mitsurugi Matchups Chart

[HajimeOwari]

Belial: I'm not sure what OYM's technique is, but there is a way to consistently get an i9 iMCF after a move.

When RCCing, there are no frames lost.

As for this whole matchup discussion...believe what you like, but I'm testing everything in training mode and all you're arguing with is theory and frames. While 6B+K is a clever way to avoid iMCF, you're certainly not going to get MST 6B for free on anything but the most dangerous of iMCF setups.

Also, while Mitsu's 66K gets around iMCF, so does Cervy's 8K and everyone else's step and TJ moves. That doesn't mean the move is neutralized, because Yoshi's game doesn't revolve around iMCF and isn't something a top Yoshi player will spam.

You may also want to consider removing punishing DGF K on block as an advantage, as this is not a staple move in high level play for Yoshi players. Admittedly, FC 3K still has its uses. Especially against Mitsu.

 

[tresto]

Now this is very interesting. I always thought I lost a frame with RCC. Maybe I'm not doing it well ... ?!
Here is my test :
- Cassandra 1A (-17). I can punish it with Amy's 666B (first 6 is for RCC, two others for the move).
- Cassandra 1K (-16). I don't manage to punish it with 666B.

What do you think ?

 

[lolo]

Now this is very interesting. I always thought I lost a frame with RCC. Maybe I'm not doing it well ... ?!
Here is my test :
- Cassandra 1A (-17). I can punish it with Amy's 666B (first 6 is for RCC, two others for the move).
- Cassandra 1K (-16). I don't manage to punish it with 666B.

What do you think ?

Mmm... Why can´t u punish 1K?... Don´t press 666, just press 66, you definitively lose frames on RCC, but in this case isn´t necessary.

 

[tresto]

well my 66B is i16 ... And it looks like I loose a frame with RCC. Sorry for putting in some Amy stuff here. If I don't do 666 it doesn't do the move ...

How does Yoshi "RCC iMCF" work ? Do you do 62a:B ? I can do iMCF easy when standing but I never thought of doing it crouching.

 

[lolo]

well my 66B is i16 ... And it looks like I loose a frame with RCC. Sorry for putting in some Amy stuff here. If I don't do 666 it doesn't do the move ...

How does Yoshi "RCC iMCF" work ? Do you do 62a:B ? I can do iMCF easy when standing but I never thought of doing it crouching.

Yeah, I do 62a:B, but as I said, you will lose some frames with the RCC, I don´t know how many, but 2 or 3 sounds reasonable, I´ll have to test it, or maybe hajime knows that, but we may continue this on a Yoshi thread, hehehe.

 

[Belial]

fastest RCC is 1 frame
fastest iWS is 5 frames
that is T_M's data.

Hajime:
I listed DFG K along with FC 3K just in case.
As for mst evasion, I've posted how it works, everything else is pretty irrelevant. That's no theory it is wholly appliant in-game, I stand corrected on punishment on certain setups, but after 2K there is just no way for you to get a CH on MST unless you are doing it too slow.

If you can get i9 iMCF all the time that's very impressive, but even so MST is still a great way to counter iMCF.
On 66K it is slightly different from everyone else TJ simply b/c its i15 meaning it can be used as a mixup. Of course the damage is too small compared to iMCF damage, so its hardly a great way to counter iMCF, but if you can apply it wisely it is a lot better than generic 8B_K TJ

tresto That's interesting. I thought that if you do a 8wr moves from crouch no frames are lost. but theres definitely no need to input 666B , 66B is enough. why move isnt coming out is probably b/c you have to do it slightly later to hit the small buffer window on those moves. I dont know about cass 1K and 1A, but pretty much against most other characters I punish low sweeps and kicks with 6:6B without 666 input

 

[HajimeOwari]

Perhaps I'm wrong about RCC. I'll do an some testing just to be sure.

Belial:

2K (block), iMCF gets a CH if you block the 2K, then 6B+K, MST 6B. iMCF basically CHs the MST 6B and not the evade itself. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. Then again, what Yoshi would go for RCC iMCF on 2K on block anyways? hehe. I'm just pointing out some issues with MST and MST 6B. I understand how it works, but I don't think it's the catch-all solution.

I agree that MST is an elegant answer to iMCF. But that's assuming Yoshi continually uses iMCF after a setup What if the Yoshi player just does 6A to bait your 6B+K? That's a free 3B. While iMCF is a great tool, it is by no means the only way Yoshi can win a match. So, I don't seen 6B+K being the end-all solution to Yoshi that you want it to be. The Mitsu player still has to play the guessing game with iMCF. The Yoshi player can take the risk of iMCFing from common setups without being punished for it. The best you have from MST is a mix-up.

 

[Belial]

Hajime:

its a waste such an interesting discussion takes place in "tier thread".
But I think we misunderstood each other. I meant 2K on *hit* into MCF/iMCF should be MST duckable, of course 2K on block into iMCF will get a CH =)) but like you pointed no yoshi will go for iMCF post 2K blocked and Mitsu is better to try and punish 2K with WS K.

I agree with the rest of your message, in the end a lot of determined by player skill and ability to effectively apply characters strong tools and create an advantage, where other see disadvantage. When considering this matchup I thought of opportunities that are created by free abuse of stance. What kind of advantages each character has.
What I point out that for ex Stance is abusable vs Yoshi b/c he doesnt have tools to stop it and what some players argue back with - that stance is not so good to begin with, b/c it is punishable etc. That is difference in viewpoints that doesnt allow to come to an agreement. If Mitsu is sucessful with stance than Yoshi will feel very pressured, but when he is not he will get punished a lot and end up not using stance. Same goes for many other aspects of the game.

Anyway I hope to meet you at Evo (I hope everything goes fine with my visa) and play a few games to learn from each other experience.

 

[HajimeOwari]

Hajime:

its a waste such an interesting discussion takes place in "tier thread".

Anyway I hope to meet you at Evo (I hope everything goes fine with my visa) and play a few games to learn from each other experience.

Belial: I agree. Gotta love tier discussion. :/

Games at EVO sound good to me. Let's hope you can make it out.

 

[Dreamkiller]

Belial - I've seen ur vids, and you are an amazing player. And I know Taki is a pretty bad character (Not that Mitsu is so great either) but theres no way that Mitsu vs. Taki is 7/3 dude. lol. 6/4 maybe, I initially put him down as 5/5 for the Taki match-up chart, but theres no way he can limit her that badly.

 

[Belial]

DreamKiller: Thanx ^_^
I agree, there is probably many things about this matchup I am unaware of.
I based my assuption on how many options from PO gets killed by 4 for ex. And that she has to real answer to stance. For ex her AA_AB series that are generally difficult to deal are owned by 6B+K~MST B4B for ~70 dmg. But its not like she has no ways around or cannot create an opportunity. That among many other things led me to believe she is strongly disadvantaged. I will probably change it to 6/4, unless any objections are to come from other players.

 

[Sora]

I don't get why you guys think (and some of the Ivy's think) that Mitsu-Ivy is 4-6 respectively... but ah well. I -guess- I can see a slight advantage to Ivy if I really think about it (easier for her to knock him out of his stance game, no real threatening natural evade to her throw game, outpoked at close range) but not enough to put her at 4-6.

But then again, this is tier discussion. XD

 

[Belial]

Sora:

One of the difficulties creating such a chart is that everybody puts different meaning in those numbers like 4/6 etc.

Some believe its result of 10 consecutive matches. Other see it as a difficulty to beat in a tournament match.

Also the basis is sometimes different, one person would see this as a theoretical model, for ex if you can punish all -13 unsafes with sophitia 236B she gets much stronger. but normally nobody can punish every unsafe, except most common and anticipated. So other person would base his judjement off his gameplay experience.

Either basis is flawed in many ways.

So I'm very sceptical towards all that discussion. it is very important that players discussing that could meet up and play. This ranking is highly suboptimal at the very least.

Personally I base my judjement off my gameplay experience and my ranking represent average of 10 consecutive games between two characters.
_________________________________________
====== DOUBLE POST AUTO-MERGE ======
I've been thinking on something and need your help
since its acutally a matchup chart, not tier list
it might be a good start to try and determine which qualities define every character and then compare those qualities to the other character.
heres a quick example

lets say a char is determined by
Speed
Range
Damage
Wake-up
Punishment
(we can possible add more to this list, but I cant think of something equally important, first that come to mind are low/throws and SG-damage)

whoever has the advantage over the other in either of those gets 3 points , tie is 1 point.
So it would something like this

### Mitsu vs Asta
SPD 1 1
RNG 1 1
DMG 0 3
OKI 0 3
PNS 1 1
(if we add thow/lows it would be probably tie again since mitsu lows are great but so are asta thow and they are both bad at SG-damage)
So mitsu gets 3/15 points and asta gets 9/15
9/3 for asta

Lets do, say, an Amy next
### Mitsu Amy
SPD 0 3
RNG 3 0
DMG 3 0
OKI 0 3
PNS 0 3

9/6 for amy

### Mitsu vs Yoshi
SPD 0 3
RNG 3 0
DMG 1 1
OKI 1 1
PNS 0 3
8/5 for yoshi

Well I think enough examples
what you think?

 

[Greven]

Dont think its viable. If there was a character that can stay 90% of the time in a ranged fight. (maybe its Algol case) even if his speed, dmg, oki and so one is crap. He will win easily because he fight for the whole duration of the match using his only quality

 

[Super__Villain]

Dont think its viable. If there was a character that can stay 90% of the time in a ranged fight. (maybe its Algol case) even if his speed, dmg, oki and so one is crap. He will win easily because he fight for the whole duration of the match using his only quality

I don't think this is a perfect explanation but he definitely makes a really good point. However, this is another thing that skews these ratings and IMO it really depends on the player to set up their distancing tactics (distancing is but one example) and for the opponent to fall prey to it. Obviously anybody who's smart will try to abuse their characters strengths and avoid the weaknesses.

Also, somebody mentioned that Taki didn't have a real good answer to Mitsurugi's stance game. Care to explain? She's one of the fastest characters in the game, don't tell me she can't interrupt on a successful move read... or do tell me that IDC, JW.

 

[LGInfinite]

I think what Greven is talking about is a character's ability to force the opponent to play to their strengths. Algol is probably the best example of that, simply because despite his crappy step, his excellent back dash and spacing tools basically nullify many other characters' best qualities. For instance, a lot of close range characters could potentially give him trouble, but his spacing is so strong that a lot of that time their close range capabilities are largely irrelevant. Hilde is another good example, just because the threat of RO is so strong that the opponent often has to completely change the way they play simply to avoid her doom combo. Not to mention that closing in on her and trying to attack often results into aGI into death anyway, nullifying that particular strategy unless a character has strong kicks.

Taki might be fast, but if you space properly when going into stance or shift only when you can snag some frame advantage then that isn't such a big issue. Mitsu also has a decent 2A, which is going to make it hard for her to just push him around with her PO mix ups.

 

[Belial]

i dont think either quality can win the game alone. that's why there are many, range matters, damage matters, safety matters too, maybe I should add step.

So I assume you are against such kind of ranking?

 

[LGInfinite]

I'm not against trying to use a character's various characteristics to try and determine how a match up will go. What I do think we need to consider is the relative importance of those characteristics in a particular match up. For instance, if you look at Algol vs Mitsu... the only thing that really matters here is whether or not Mitsu can negate Algol's spacing. If he can't then all of his other attributes, like his mix up game, step punish and so on are useless. To give you an extreme example, consider Algol vs Asta. Asta has many strong points, but back dash and spacing by Algol negate almost everything he has. The fact that Asta has excellent throws and so on doesn't matter simply because that one property - Algol's excellent spacing - can be used to vastly reduce Asta's options.

However, Belial, I think that what you're doing is a great idea. Highlighting the strengths and weaknesses of other characters vs Mitsu will give Mitsu some idea of what to expect because while it's important to try and make the opponent play the game on your terms, that isn't always possible. When that happens then, at the very least, you have to try and stop the game being played on their terms instead.

 

[Greven]

I will try another approach to explain the wrongness of your chart :D

lets take lizzard and modify his 3B mid i20 unsafe and 1K low i23 unsafe
lets say the new lizz has no other moves but 3B and 1K but they do 250 dmg (or RO everywhere, as you like)
pretty imbalanced isnt it, 9/1 vs anyone right?

but lets check with ur chart

### imba lizzard vs Sophie
SPD 0 3
RNG 0 3
DMG 3 0
OKI 3 0 (he has none, but lets say he is better)
PNS 0 3
6/9 ~ 4/6


i think you have to add a lot more informations about character, like mix-up, RO, step, frames (blockstun, hitstun) and other

 

[Belial]

greven: this is some kind of crap, there are no moves that deal 250 dmg