Mitsurugi Matchups Chart

but your chart should be able to handle this data or it cant work at all

and i said it deals 250 dmg, but it can be a RO launcher, an infinite or a bubble death combo
 
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anything can be made look pointless if you exagarrate things to degree of absurd.

Winning the game is about dealing more damage than your opponent deals to you. to do this you will either hit hard, or often. preferably both. factors that influence/compliment either of those values are as represented in my chart.
Whenever things go out of control like with Hilde or your example, is the matter of flaws in game balance and has to do with difference in tiers, not matchup.

Take Amy for example, her basic mechanics are imbalanced, creating a situation where she can kill from single KD. A character might have all the needed tools to beat her, but still lose, because he never gets an opportunity to apply this tools. But it would be ridiculous to take something as broken in account when determining the matchup advantage neither it is possible. From a single KD pointview it is 10/0 vs all. It wouldnt matter how good other aspects of the game are if one of those aspects completely eliminates all other from equation.
 
I'm not arguing for or against because I don't know this matchup well enough but How'd you guys come up with 4/6 Mitsu vs Raph? I think Mitsu's whole problem is he has mixups, but everything he has is easy to block and punish.
 
I think Mitsu vs Asta is 6:4 for Mitsu and here is why ...

Just kidding ! ^__^

I still think this way but atm no mitsu could beat my Astaroth in FT10 or anything so maybe i'm wrong ... i dunno ... after all truth is on the screen :)
 
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haha, Saitoh, I respect your opinion =) lets play ft10 at Evo and/or NVGA, I'm willing to try defeating your astaroth although I'm not all that good at this game.
 
Vs Asta

Disadvantages:
...
- Very hard to apply 88_22A punishment
Click to expand...

That's what I thought until not too long ago. But you can actually get a 22A CH pretty consistently on his bullrush by doing an anticipated 8wayrun move. It's not very hard to pull off, and risk/reward is pretty good as long as you try it out of his throw range (his only reliable quick enough anti-step).
Not the best character to fish a 22A CH against, but finally not as difficult as it looked like.
 
VS Cervantes:

-Feel free to spam the bA JF at mid range. You cannot be punished by aB. Only up close. It's perfectly safe at mid/long range. Very frustrating to fight against
-Most Cervantes players cannot iGDR when you do 1A on reaction. The window is too small. All we get is 6K
-As Belial mentioned, unlike SC2/SC3, Cervantes step now sucks horribly

I feel the matchup is 5/5 or 6/4 in Mitsu's favor. There is no way Cervantes wins this 6/4
 
Yeah, I think Hates mentioned something a while back about abusing 1A because of Cervy's inability to punish it with any really bad. Certainly, the risk reward is in your favour if all the Cervy player can get is 6K.

The point you make about bA JF at mid range is interesting - I wasn't aware of it and it's definitely something I should look at.
 
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made changes to the chart. this is what I believe in now )
 
I'm curious about the Kilik/Mitsu matchup. I think Belial feels this matchup is even now? I see it used to be 6:4 Kilik. Can anybody (including Belial) give further details on this? I'm struggling w/a Mitsu player and am trying to find a good counter (and I don't want to play Hilde). Thank you sirs

Also, Voldo/Cass would be cool too. The first page didn't have a lot of info on Voldo, more specific would be great
 
Belial: you updated the Mitsu-Asta match-up and put it to 5-5. Could you explain the reasoning behind it? I still struggle against this character.
 
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Musashi: I put it as 6/4 in mits favor b/c you can substitute FC for 6B+K~MST to crouch throws and asta doesnt have the tools to heavily punish it, and Astaroth is very weak vs Relic stance to the point where you can completely win the match using only RLC. The local Asta we have is just way too strong but I realized it lately playing him that this is indeed an advantage, after playing Saitoh I've realized how pretty much impossible it is for Astaroth when he is not used to my patterns.

Nori: I dont think Kilik-Mitsu is even, S-U has a point but Im not convinced yet. I'll give you details after I give it more consideration and gameplay.
 
Yeah you put 6-4, even worse.
About 6B+K going under throws, it requires a lot of anticipation, and I believe CT will still catch Mitsu during the move. But I agree it can be a nice substitute for the ducking.
Still, how can you match the damage? Especially if the Asta player can just ukemi your 2KB 90% of the time?
That's my huge problem. I'm OK with avoiding the throw or trying to break it, but the 50-50 is SO heavily in his favor, whereas Mitsu's 2KB mix-up isn't.

Really need some in depth advice here...
For the Relic stuff, I'm gonna go see in training mode Asta's possibilities against it.
 
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I've just captured a ft5 vs Kingusha - best astaroth of russia and I think of the world =) I will upload later today.
no CT doest catch from 6B+K movement at all it has active TC for about 20 frames. very good tc and it goes under many mids.
 
I'm pretty sure somebody CT my 6B+K, not sure it was Asta though, maybe X, regardless: I'm gonna test some stuff.
 
Nori said:
I'm curious about the Kilik/Mitsu matchup. I think Belial feels this matchup is even now? I see it used to be 6:4 Kilik. Can anybody (including Belial) give further details on this? I'm struggling w/a Mitsu player and am trying to find a good counter (and I don't want to play Hilde). Thank you sirs

Also, Voldo/Cass would be cool too. The first page didn't have a lot of info on Voldo, more specific would be great
Click to expand...
Anybody nice enough to break this down?
 
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I've covered Voldo on the first page, I dont know what else to add...
Mitsu gets a lot of mix up opportunities on voldo voldo cant step and Voldo has no tools to deal with stance (both of them), mitsu can step Voldo and use his strong SS punishers, so basically mitsu should rape voldo. The only advantage voldo has is his strong punishment which CAN be a factor in this matchup, but in fact it isnt b/c this punishment (6:6B) is only applicable to RLC B in other cases it is only possible if mitsu is either reckless or require dire amount of anticipation (like with punishing b:A for ex). Mitsu combos get great on BT voldo..
In USA I've played MM's against Bibulus (5-2) , Esom (5-2) and Manta (4-5 or 3-5 dont remember). During this money matches I've realized how very troublesome Voldo SG damage is. I am well aware of his strong SG game but when ppl have specific game based around damaging SG - I've encountered it for the first time.
during his mm's I was totally dominating the game, but I still lost games due to this SG factor. As for Manta, his Landfish and MC setups were so surprising to me and I never saw anybody use it, it was very impressive and in fact, once he realized I dont know how to hadle this, he just abused it. At this point I must add just one more thing Manta opened my eyes to. I know GI is/might be troublesome for Mitsurugi, so I figured as much as voldo has great GI it might be bad, still I thought Mitsu GI is great too, so it would turn out fine in the end, BUT I've never realized how effective 4_1G with Voldo is! Manta used it very effectively (in fact I've never seen anybody GI so well) and bulit up SG damage extremely fast.

All this along with aforementioned just lead me to losing this MM. But I think Manta would agree with me that if we played another MM after this I would have won that since main thing that gave him a good edge over me and won him the game was my unawareness of LF_MC transitions and tech traps.

So what I want to say by this I still believe that in reality this matchup is either favorable or neutral, but in theory it should be bad for mitsurugi b/c of how powerful Voldo's 6:6B punisher is. Same thing with Sophie, I've played Suriad about hundred games during my stay in Vegas and I destroyed him badly even though he's a great player with incredibly good sophitia knowledge and application, but still I dont think anybody can punish everything as long as you put some pressure on him. Thats the bottom line. In my belief Voldo-Mitsu is 5/5 and Mitsu/Sophie is 6/4 (mitsu adv) b/c I value factors like distance and opportunities to set up damage above numbers. But on paper those matchups are horrible for Rugi, so I'm thinking maybe I've never met a proper Voldo and Sophie player, though Manta and Suriad seem pretty damn close to my vision of perfect Voldo and Sophie.

Now on Cass. I must say I didnt have a lot of Cass practice, but her key advantages is her strong GI, strong punishment and great step as well as good CH and decent evasion. she can deal with stance way better that voldo and her punishment is way easier for many mitsu moves since its faster and easier input. Since her ability to deal damage is mostly reliant on CH, punishment and spacing - I find those the most troublesome for mitsurugi, but on the othe hand Mitsu has a lot more range than her. During my play with KDZ - which at least it seems to me that way is the best USA player , once I was past getting RO'ed by stuff I didnt expect in first two games (lack of char knowledge you see) I felt like I could really press the advantage slightly more often than he did, but then again he might punish me harder from guessing correctly. The only way I could match the damage is by 6B+K'ing under throws, which I did a few times, but overall, as good as it is, it is less reliable than simply ducking, so yes I could force my game more often, but got punished slightly harder for guessing wrong. Then again - calculating stuff like punishment and mixup damage is easy, what is hard, is to consider how effective spacing and opportunities it creates is for the particular match up. Stance play, especially relic is so amazing against characters with shorter range, even if you consider it weak on paper it works like magic in reality both upclose and for keep away/reverse mixup. this are things you cant reliably calculate. I think this matchup is about 5/5, with a slight adv to cass is you go by math.
 
Belial said:
I've just captured a ft5 vs Kingusha - best astaroth of russia and I think of the world =) I will upload later today.
no CT doest catch from 6B+K movement at all it has active TC for about 20 frames. very good tc and it goes under many mids.
Click to expand...

Just confirming that CT catches 6B+K.
 
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