Nightmare's Movelist Changes and Move Speculation Thread

[Goofy]

Erm how was he terrible in the Ezio build? Even Keev disagrees with this...

Keev wrote:

Nightmare is always unsafe (WSK, 11A new mid anti step, WSA, 3B, 2K, GSA etc.). The TC frame of GS changed because is more difficult to evade under AA with 33B GS or WSB GS. Morever GS A in hit push a lot so no throw without dash forward. I fear because Night will be strongly displayed in punishment by CE (editor's note: while in stance transition).

That doesn't seem great...<_<

Here's a list of what I see as bad changes/missed opportunities for SCV Nightmare aside from the ones listed by Keev:

• No GS KK, only GS K (BE)
• New 66B is awful
• 4BB no longer ground-stuns
• Removal of Terror Charge, but it's kay gaiz cus now we get 1/3rd meter... ಠ_ಠ
• No more 11K, 22AB, or Ba
• 2B+K (BE)..really?
• Range reductions on agA, 33B
• Nothing added to GS or NSS, possibly my biggest peeve with the Devs. Siegfried gets a slew of new, arguably way better options for all of his stances. Why couldn't they give GS a TJing move or maybe a fast low/mid out of NSS?

Honestly, fellow "Nightmare enthusiasts," I don't see how we can look at the SCV Mare and call him better. Sure, his step is amazing, yeah his damage got buffed. It's hard to celebrate that when, across the board, step is better and damage is buffed. Especially when the other giant sword user is getting way better buffs and additions. That is all, I have a migraine so I apologize for any incoherence.

 

[Tiamat]

Keev wrote:


That doesn't seem great...<_<

Here's a list of what I see as bad changes/missed opportunities for SCV Nightmare aside from the ones listed by Keev:

• No GS KK, only GS K (BE)
• New 66B is awful
• 4BB no longer ground-stuns
• Removal of Terror Charge, but it's kay gaiz cus now we get 1/3rd meter... ಠ_ಠ
• No more 11K, 22AB, or Ba
• 2B+K (BE)..really?
• Range reductions on agA, 33B
• Nothing added to GS or NSS, possibly my biggest peeve with the Devs. Siegfried gets a slew of new, arguably way better options for all of his stances. Why couldn't they give GS a TJing move or maybe a fast low/mid out of NSS?

Honestly, fellow "Nightmare enthusiasts," I don't see how we can look at the SCV Mare and call him better. Sure, his step is amazing, yeah his damage got buffed. It's hard to celebrate that when, across the board, step is better and damage is buffed. Especially when the other giant sword user is getting way better buffs and additions. That is all, I have a migraine so I apologize for any incoherence.

Keev later said that his opinion is changed and he thinks nightmare is good now. Nightmare can do good damage to guard meter and his damage is very high even compared to other characters in SC5.

Me? I won't be able to decide till I've played the game for a while. The important thing is how good he is relative the rest of the cast and how his matchups are now. That's not something we can determine at this point.

 

[Goofy]

Keev later said that his opinion is changed and he thinks nightmare is good now. Nightmare can do good damage to guard meter and his damage is very high even compared to other characters in SC5.

Keev's opinion changed based on what? Unless the Devs agreed to take all of his feedback into consideration and not make Mare terrible, then I think that can be chalked up to optimism.
The way I understand it though, the time for balancing/making changes came to pass awhile ago so I just hope PS live up to their side of the bargain on after-release balancing.

Nightmare can do good damage to guard meter, sure, but have you seen Sieg's guard crush game? Utter shenanigans. That coupled with the fact that Sieg gets some new GB properties and Mare's get taken away along with NTC. What up wit dat?

Me? I won't be able to decide till I've played the game for a while. The important thing is how good he is relative the rest of the cast and how his matchups are now. That's not something we can determine at this point.

I fully understand that but that doesn't hinder anyone from observing the vids and taking note of negative changes. It's not hard to already draw the parallels between Sieg and Mare, one's gameplay design is being improved upon and honed while the other's is pretty much hammered into an even more gimmicky, stagnant version with even less tools. All in all, Siegfried is a decent secondary of mine and there are tons of other fun looking characters to pick-up(Zwei, Xiba, Pat) so if Nightmare has to be the Rock of SCV, I suppose it's a decent trade imo.

 

[page]

His opinion is based on him suddenly realizing that SC5 isn't SC4.

Why would the devs take his feedback on old demo builds for a game he doesn't understand yet?

 

[IdleMind]

His opinion is based on him suddenly realizing that SC5 isn't SC4.

Why would the devs take his feedback on old demo builds for a game he doesn't understand yet?

I cannot stress the point of this post enough. If a pro player playing a demo has a hard time understanding the games are drastically different (like so different that it changes the nature of assumption of what character strengths are), watching videos gives you and even more distant and out of touch perspective on it.

 

[Synraii]

Why is NM worse than Sieg?

In the SC titles that I have played, Siegfried has always been stronger than Nightmare. And before the butthurt NM players go on about better step, throws and oki in SCIV, the simple fact is SCIV Siegfried placed more often and generally higher worldwide than NM in its lifespan.
And don't think this is some strange cultist belief because I'm a Siegfried player. People who have played me offline know perfectly well that today my NM is very comparable to Sieg in terms of strength, I love both characters but Sieg had the better moveset already. =/

In SCIV, NM was better than Siegfried at throws, step, damage and leaps and bounds ahead in okizeme.
Siegfried had more mixups, better SG game, better mids, was safer and had 3B (=P).
What we have seen so far reflects this between the two characters and frankly is to be expected.

Now as Idle has so kindly said already, this is a new game and we know very little about how the system or the characters will prove to turn out over the next few years. Siegfried may seem stronger now, but that could be very far from the truth once we know more, in fact in early SCIV the french believed Siegfried to be a top tier, not entirely true I think you will agree XD. So far all I have personally seen as main differances between the two characters is almost exactly what I saw in SCIV, certainly nothing I would make a concrete opinion about, especially before release. Give it time man, NM looks sick if you ask me and may turn out to be a fucking beast! =)

 

[Tiamat]

Goofy you should stop comparing NM to Sieg so much. The characters play almost nothing alike. You're focusing too much on the negative changes and not enough on the positive ones.

 

[Synraii]

The characters play almost nothing alike.

So true.

 

[Goofy]

SCV isn't SCIV mantra, Tabula Rasa, blah blah blah.

Props, Sherlock. I see that that debate leads to a shallow shadow so I won't bother with that. All I'm saying is that the footage is all there, top tourney player perspective, etc. I base my personal predictions on that. That being the case, I will wholeheartedly prepare a hat of crow feathers to chomp down in the case that Mare doesn't turn out to be as axiomatically awful as he seems. I suggest you PS faithful people do the same because when Mare does turn out to be terrible, I won't let you hear the end of it >_>...

Newbie side note: How do you quote multiple people?

 

[Synraii]

I suggest you PS faithful people do the same because when Mare does turn out to be terrible, I won't let you hear the end of it >_>...

You do realise you are the ONLY person setting themself up for a fall here right?

Gameplay wise, the top tourney players know little about SCV,
I know very little about SCV,
You know very little about SCV.

Making predictions is just dumb, because its human nature to want to adhere to them. Don't.

 

[Tiamat]

Props, Sherlock. I see that that debate leads to a shallow shadow so I won't bother with that. All I'm saying is that the footage is all there, top tourney player perspective, etc. I base my personal predictions on that. That being the case, I will wholeheartedly prepare a hat of crow feathers to chomp down in the case that Mare doesn't turn out to be as axiomatically awful as he seems. I suggest you PS faithful people do the same because when Mare does turn out to be terrible, I won't let you hear the end of it >_>...

Newbie side note: How do you quote multiple people?

I just copy and paste to get multiple quotes in one post. I don't see a way to do it otherwise but maybe someone else knows.

 

[IdleMind]

Props, Sherlock. I see that that debate leads to a shallow shadow so I won't bother with that. All I'm saying is that the footage is all there, top tourney player perspective, etc. I base my personal predictions on that. That being the case, I will wholeheartedly prepare a hat of crow feathers to chomp down in the case that Mare doesn't turn out to be as axiomatically awful as he seems. I suggest you PS faithful people do the same because when Mare does turn out to be terrible, I won't let you hear the end of it >_>...

Newbie side note: How do you quote multiple people?

It's cool man, it's best to begin your interactions with me like everyone does: That I have no fucking idea what I'm talking about. I enjoy that kind of thing.

 

[Goofy]

Snip

Goofy you should stop comparing NM to Sieg so much. The characters play almost nothing alike. You're focusing too much on the negative changes and not enough on the positive ones.

You two misunderstand. I'm not trying to say, "Wtf why doesn't Mare play like Sieg?!" The point I'm trying to make is that, why is one big sword user getting a gameplay overhaul and the other not? It's akin to why is Astaroth leaps and bounds better than Rock? A question more along the lines of, "Where the heck is the balancing on this?" Things like why does Siegfried get more mix-ups, better stance options, more GB's, improved safety, new and good moves, etc. while Nightmare is having his staple stuff taken away and not much in the way of improvements. Why couldn't Mare be approached with an eye for improving his gameplay style? I don't get it :/

You do realise you are the ONLY person setting themself up for a fall here right?

Gameplay wise, the top tourney players know little about SCV,
I know very little about SCV,
You know very little about SCV.

Making predictions is just dumb, because its human nature to want to adhere to them. Don't.

We'll have to agree to disagree. PS's balancing resume isn't anywhere near amazing so I don't quite understand this idea that we as players should just stfu as the Devs clearly trump and are infallible. I only hope that they learned from their mistakes but what I see with Mare and others makes me think otherwise.

Idle fishing for some sympathy :)

<3

 

[IdleMind]

Let me try again.

while Nightmare is having his staple stuff taken away and not much in the way of improvements. Why couldn't Mare be approached with an eye for improving his gameplay style? I don't get it :/

You don't know what a buff or a nerf is within the context of the new engine.

The entire nature of what kind of play is encouraged has changed. The entire nature of judging character strengths have changed because they have deviated from the normal structure of character strengths in 3d games. I'm not making PR statements- this is the absolute truth. Your perception of what a buff or nerf is not "wrong" its not even relevant because the way you perceive these things is skewed towards what you know. The same thing happened to Keev; the same thing happened to a ton of top players.

It might be jarring to hear, but virtually nobody knows shit to judge this game right now. Not because SCV isnt not SCIV, because SCV isn't even on the same planet with every other 3d FG ever made in terms of its design direction and derived playstyle intents.

If this goes over your head, or if you are too stubborn, then whatever. I tried.

 

[Synraii]

snip

Were you clued in about Siegfried, you would know that his moveset, just like Nightmare's has had some drastic changes from SCIV. And talk to me about balance when you have the following:
1. A deep understanding of how SCV works.
2. Personal extensive SCV tournament experience.
3. Personal experience of high level play in general.

Because without ALL three, any comments to be made on balance are completely invalid.

 

[Tiamat]

You two misunderstand. I'm not trying to say, "Wtf why doesn't Mare play like Sieg?!" The point I'm trying to make is that, why is one big sword user getting a gameplay overhaul and the other not? It's akin to why is Astaroth leaps and bounds better than Rock? A question more along the lines of, "Where the heck is the balancing on this?" Things like why does Siegfried get more mix-ups, better stance options, more GB's, improved safety, new and good moves, etc. while Nightmare is having his staple stuff taken away and not much in the way of improvements. Why couldn't Mare be approached with an eye for improving his gameplay style? I don't get it :/

Goofy - I'll agree that some of their design decisions make little sense to me. I could complain about 11K being gone but I've done that plenty in this thread and it's beating a dead horse at this point so I'm trying not to go into that. They said something about trying to make up for NM's weaknesses with this game but to me it looks like their solution was "make him do way more damage on his power moves." How far will this take him? I don't know, but having high raw damage is something that shouldn't be overlooked. The only real issue that is probably resolved is his historically crappy standing block punishment now that aB is changed to a 6B command. It remains to be seen if that gives good frames or free NSS K though.

Idle - I think having a decently fast, safe mid with at least some reward is still going to be important regardless of any changes to the game system.

 

[MysticBoudha]

reading this makes me remember JUstin Wong epic comment : Adon is ass in this game. Months later hes getting blown up by some unknown player to the SSF IV community. Shoutouts to Gamerbee!!!!! I agree with Idle here. Its way to early to judge character rankings right now. Lets just wait for the game to come out. Test stuff play tournaments, play online and then we'll have an opinion. Right now every god damn opinion isn't worth shit

 

[IdleMind]

Idle - I think having a decently fast, safe mid that isn't crap (I know that was a lot of qualifiers) is still going to be important regardless of any changes to the game system.

Don't you think that depends entirely on how much the system provides the incentive to duck, or how much emphasis is placed on the relative strength of punishing, or as you put it, alot of other qualifiers? I'm not saying you are wrong, but the game engine really is so different that it's worth challenging even the most traditional of analytical assumptions.

 

[Synraii]

I'm surprised that Adon player didn't give him a heart attack, he looks the type. =/
I had to...

 

[Goofy]

Well-thought-out shenanigans

Fine, I give. I suppose I am just too stubborn to follow the "SCV is soooo different man, you don't even know. Trees are so huggable." logic. Whatever. All I have to say is, again, prepare your crows and hats as I'll prepare mine and when it turns out that your ever so imprisoned mentalities were false, that Mare is actually awful, then justice will be had. If on the other hand, Mare turns out to be tournament viable as PS has stated as their intent, then I will bow to your omniscience and we can all sing Kumbaya around the campfire.