Nightmare's Movelist Changes and Move Speculation Thread

Goofy said:
Fine, I give. I suppose I am just too stubborn to follow the "SCV is soooo different man, you don't even know. Trees are so huggable." logic. Whatever. All I have to say is again, prepare your crows and hats as I'll prepare mine and when it turns out that your ever so imprisoned mentalities were false, that Mare is actually awful, then justice will be had. If on the other hand, Mare turns out to be tournament viable as PS has stated as their intent, then I will bow to your omniscience and we can all sing Kumbaya around the campfire.
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Are you upset, brother?
 
Synraii said:
HAHAHA.
Can't bring yourelf to the tried and tested 'U MAD?' I take it?
I'm happy now.
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Hippies wouldn't post that U MAD. That would be divisive. We are all brothers here. Take a seat by the campfire Synraii, as you know perfectly well I am the kind of person who drinks the kool-aid and only wants to share it with you! Just like I did with SC4, remember?
 
IdleMind said:
Are you upset, brother?
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Truthfully, disappointed :P
 
NM's gotten nerfs, but he's also gotten some pretty sizable buffs. His CE, 33B BE, damage in general, and improved bubble are all amazing. I sincerely doubt NM's going to end up being anything below mid tier in SCV.

Also, if my theories about his wallgame turn out to be right, his wallgame is going to be ridiculous.
 
I am pretty sure NM always did big damage, when he finally landing something. That isn't something new.

His actual buffs, are A+B, 1A and BE 2B+K.

Come on Diashi, give me that safe 3B man, you already got that 1A fixed...only this I ask.
 
Synraii said:
In the SC titles that I have played, Siegfried has always been stronger than Nightmare. And before the butthurt NM players go on about better step, throws and oki in SCIV, the simple fact is SCIV Siegfried placed more often and generally higher worldwide than NM in its lifespan.
And don't think this is some strange cultist belief because I'm a Siegfried player. People who have played me offline know perfectly well that today my NM is very comparable to Sieg in terms of strength, I love both characters but Sieg had the better moveset already. =/

In SCIV, NM was better than Siegfried at throws, step, damage and leaps and bounds ahead in okizeme.
Siegfried had more mixups, better SG game, better mids, was safer and had 3B (=P).
What we have seen so far reflects this between the two characters and frankly is to be expected.

Now as Idle has so kindly said already, this is a new game and we know very little about how the system or the characters will prove to turn out over the next few years. Siegfried may seem stronger now, but that could be very far from the truth once we know more, in fact in early SCIV the french believed Siegfried to be a top tier, not entirely true I think you will agree XD. So far all I have personally seen as main differances between the two characters is almost exactly what I saw in SCIV, certainly nothing I would make a concrete opinion about, especially before release. Give it time man, NM looks sick if you ask me and may turn out to be a fucking beast! =)
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Erm in 2008 (one 2nd place by Panto and a tournament win by Tiamat), 2009 (numerous 2nd places by DTN, Ice Cold Edge's numerous ranbat wins (Sieg) and Keev's numerous 2nd places in France, Vlaster's 2nd in DR tournament, my 3rd place in Singapore and 2nd at BAM etc) and 2010 (3rd place by Keev in the biggest SC4 tournament ever and a 17th by another NM at the same tournament, don't think a Sieg did very well throughout 2010), Sieg featured as much as Nightmare more or less throughout the SC4 period so I don't think this statement is correct.
 
Goofy said:
Keev wrote:


That doesn't seem great...<_<

Here's a list of what I see as bad changes/missed opportunities for SCV Nightmare aside from the ones listed by Keev:
  • No GS KK, only GS K (BE)
  • New 66B is awful
  • 4BB no longer ground-stuns
  • Removal of Terror Charge, but it's kay gaiz cus now we get 1/3rd meter... ಠ_ಠ
  • No more 11K, 22AB, or Ba
  • 2B+K (BE)..really?
  • Range reductions on agA, 33B
  • Nothing added to GS or NSS, possibly my biggest peeve with the Devs. Siegfried gets a slew of new, arguably way better options for all of his stances. Why couldn't they give GS a TJing move or maybe a fast low/mid out of NSS?
Honestly, fellow "Nightmare enthusiasts," I don't see how we can look at the SCV Mare and call him better. Sure, his step is amazing, yeah his damage got buffed. It's hard to celebrate that when, across the board, step is better and damage is buffed. Especially when the other giant sword user is getting way better buffs and additions. That is all, I have a migraine so I apologize for any incoherence.
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This is what Keev said later after playing the game for a longer time:

Good news ! I did play Sc5 yesterday. I did play only nightmare and i can say that finally nightmare is gooooooood haha. His gameplay have changed, that's why i didn't understand the potentiale of new nightmare. In fact, nightmare don't play on tech trap and whiff punish like in SC4. Now all his move have more damage. It break the guard very speedly (I did often 2 guard burst by match, minimum 1) . It has always some huge wall combo with style. I very happy. I will play night in SC5 !!


Also, I have played the game (latest demo) and I am telling you that he is not weak at all at this moment. Almost
 
Paragon049 said:
Also, if my theories about his wallgame turn out to be right, his wallgame is going to be ridiculous.
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Considering he can apparently do 60-70% with a noob combo like 4KK w 4KK 3B to ender (forget what the ender was) his wallgame has to be pretty crazy in SC5. 66K normal hit (which now has same effect as CH did in 4) should be a good starting option as well if near the wall. Only problem is that starting a wallcombo from futher away will now require meter since GS KK is gone.

KingAce said:
I am pretty sure NM always did big damage, when he finally landing something. That isn't something new.

His actual buffs, are A+B, 1A and BE 2B+K.

Come on Diashi, give me that safe 3B man, you already got that 1A fixed...only this I ask.
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It's not even on the same level as his SC4 damage. Wallcombo raw damage appears to be roughly doubled, launcher combos that used to do 1/4 life now do about 1/3 life, ground hits with moves like 3B and GS B do totally nasty damage, 4K BE does large damage and hits fast, 33B BE combo does over 100 damage.

I'm also not seeing the 1A buff being that important. 1A6 is one of the few moves that actually is getting punished in vids. I'm sure 1A without the GS is safer but it's still gonna get blocked most of the time by good players, as it is still very seeable.
 
Tiamat said:
Considering he can apparently do 60-70% with a noob combo like 4KK w 4KK 3B to ender (forget what the ender was) his wallgame has to be pretty crazy in SC5. 66K normal hit (which now has same effect as CH did in 4) should be a good starting option as well if near the wall. Only problem is that starting a wallcombo from futher away will now require meter since GS KK is gone.



It's not even on the same level as his SC4 damage. Wallcombo raw damage appears to be roughly doubled, launcher combos that used to do 1/4 life now do about 1/3 life, ground hits with moves like 3B and GS B do totally nasty damage, 4K BE does large damage and hits fast, 33B BE combo does over 100 damage.

I'm also not seeing the 1A buff being that important. 1A6 is one of the few moves that actually is getting punished in vids. I'm sure 1A without the GS is safer but it's still gonna get blocked most of the time by good players, as it is still very seeable.
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1A6 GS B i think does more damage anyway so its still a good whiff punisher. 1A by itself being safer is a huge buff from neutral so i actually agree with King on this one.
 
Tiamat said:
Considering he can apparently do 60-70% with a noob combo like 4KK w 4KK 3B to ender (forget what the ender was) his wallgame has to be pretty crazy in SC5. 66K normal hit (which now has same effect as CH did in 4) should be a good starting option as well if near the wall. Only problem is that starting a wallcombo from futher away will now require meter since GS KK is gone.



It's not even on the same level as his SC4 damage. Wallcombo raw damage appears to be roughly doubled, launcher combos that used to do 1/4 life now do about 1/3 life, ground hits with moves like 3B and GS B do totally nasty damage, 4K BE does large damage and hits fast, 33B BE combo does over 100 damage.

I'm also not seeing the 1A buff being that important. 1A6 is one of the few moves that actually is getting punished in vids. I'm sure 1A without the GS is safer but it's still gonna get blocked most of the time by good players, as it is still very seeable.
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man is there any vid with that 33B BE combo? if there is one pls send the link, i havent see that yet. 33B doing over 100 damage sounds sexy =D
 
Tiamat said:
It's not even on the same level as his SC4 damage. Wallcombo raw damage appears to be roughly doubled, launcher combos that used to do 1/4 life now do about 1/3 life, ground hits with moves like 3B and GS B do totally nasty damage, 4K BE does large damage and hits fast, 33B BE combo does over 100 damage.

I'm also not seeing the 1A buff being that important. 1A6 is one of the few moves that actually is getting punished in vids. I'm sure 1A without the GS is safer but it's still gonna get blocked most of the time by good players, as it is still very seeable.
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Relative to the rest of the rooster, in both games he does great damage.(every character has a boost in damage in SCV) You're exaggerating when you say doubled since it sounds like he has half life like combos all around. You also can't just ignore the fact he needs to use meter for that damage in SCV. So it's not readily available at all times.

1A is a big deal for this game specifically as many will realize.
 
Didn't we think that NM was going to be crap coming from SC3 to SC4?

As far as the argumentative discussion goes, it seems people just have differing opinions; they 'agree to disagree' but continue to shit on each others differing opinions. Now that doesn't go anywhere does it? 'Agree to disagree' and get back to the topic.

Back to movelist discussion, 3B itself seems even less safe, but apparently 3B does a little more to push back on block. So I think to make sure it works, you need to space properly. This added in with the fact that 3B tip is now a knockdown means PS has put thought into changing how 3B works in the context of the game.

Unrelated, I really hope that iaga does meaningful Guage damage. A significant Gauge game in general means the opponent is attacking more which will mean more chances to bait for CE; or the opponent is trying to evade more with step or going under highs, and I think NM will have good answers for those as well.

EDIT: also, you can just click the reply links for each of the posts that you want to quote, and they stack up one after another in the comment form.
 
KingAce said:
Relative to the rest of the rooster, in both games he does great damage.(every character has a boost in damage in SCV) You're exaggerating when you say doubled since it sounds like he has half life like combos all around. You also can't just ignore the fact he needs to use meter for that damage in SCV. So it's not readily available at all times.
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I said roughly doubled for wall combos specifically. I don't think it is an exaggeration. I'm guessing SC5 has a way less harsh scaling system for wall combos and this is a side effect of that. A wall combo from 4KK in SC4 woulda done a little over 1/3 life, now it does closer to 2/3 life. I'm not ignoring that he needs meter for his best combos either, and I mentioned that now he'll need meter to get a wall combo from a distance when I responded to Paragon. Lots of his big damage buffs don't rely on meter though, like 3B or the wallcombo I mentioned.

microgamer said:
Didn't we think that NM was going to be crap coming from SC3 to SC4?
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Yes we did. If you stick SC3 NM in SC4, or SC4 NM in SC3 the SC4 NM will undoubtedly be much worse in either case. That's not how things work though, and because of changes to SC4 game system (making moves like 2A slower, nerfing his worst matchups) he wound up being much better.
 
Well Nightmare is still a versatile character like he was in four...I am sure everyone is seeing different equations on how to make him effectively work.

I might come off as shitting on others opinions, but I am very much interested in what everybody else comes up with.
 
Honestly I think everyone in the discussion lately has it right to some degree, despite whatever argumentative tone is taken. The X-Factor in this game (in my OPINION. Don't want to come off condescending again.) is really how well does he do in a game where the standard mix-up has shifted away from M/L or M/T to Hori/Vert due to the new nerf to step-G; but the increased emphasis on stepping/8wr into whiff punishers. Consider that moves from 8wr, even if they look the same as from standing are very different frame and property wise; much moreso than in previous installments because you cannot instant 8wr anymore. Extrapolating on that, these would be my questions:

Some characters throws can be QS'd at point blank range, others cannot. Can NM's? If they can, how is his step-kill rewards? How good are his step-kills on block, and what kind of advantage can he gain from scaring the opponent into standing still in terms of T/M mixups, guard damage, +frame attacks, and how is his chip on unseeable low pokes?

Much like KingAce and Engared, I believe placement of 1A becomes important because of the potential damage you get off a read step at slight advantage. Tactics like poking to get adv to bait people stepping "because thats what they do in slightly neutral situations" (more common than I initially thought in SC, coming from Tekken years ago) then throwing out a 1A at the right ranges might be something to consider.

Anyways, I guess this might come off as theory fighter. Ignore if you believe it to be so.
 
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