Nightmare's Movelist Changes and Move Speculation Thread
- Thread starter Engared
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KingAce
HERMITISM
Pretty much done with speculation and first hand opinions....just waiting for the game to hit.
Dr. Hates
Jerk.
In Short: Significantly better than I thought he'd be, but will it last?
In Semi-Detail:
After Cervantes, I probably spent the most time playing around with NM. I certainly fought against him the most. Overall, I was shocked that he wasn't terrible (I've loathed his design since the SC3 re-work). In fact, his damage output and guard break game--the latter provisionally, since I'm not sure about safety--make him seem quite viable, especially in the early game.
AgA remains a staple both at range 0 and at tip. The guard break still appears to make 66K uninterruptable, so on block it allows you to start pressuring your opponent once they've been trained to respect it. 33B is still a staple launch. 3B is far less safe than it used to be, but 3(B) seems promising as you can mix your followups to encourage opponents to punish you mostly with 2As and other very fast attacks, and the damage reward you get for landing the move more than compensates for that risk. GS B is a much improved launcher now; GS B, GS B, BE GS K->W!, 4KK->W!, 3(B), NSS bA is a combo from the right distance, which is just ridiculous. Even without the wall nonsense, he's still doing a grip of damage when he lands that move, and it actually seemed to track a wee bit. 44(B) also yields impressive damage rewards, considering its overall risk, and 3AA_3A2A is much better, given its newfound speed combined with impressive range. Impressive range, I might add, is a trait shared by a number of his moves. AgA might have lost some, as did 33B, but he still has a number of long-range, slower attacks which all seem to cover step (66A, 44A, 22AA, etc) and appear as though they will have a solid place in his arsenal.
Nightmare can make very effective use of BE attacks in combos, but I'd recommend trying to keep a CE stocked at all times. Knowing NM has one of those counters in his arsenal radically changes the way the matchup has to be approached, and it gives NM more opportunities to work the guard meter while his opponent is trying to find a safer way to mount offense. Incidentally, however, the CE counter can be stepped, and it also fails to counter throws and unblockable attacks.
Nightmare's major downside is that he still provides opponents with many "solvable" situations, by which I mean he creates scenarios wherein there is a single defensive option which defeats everything he can throw at you. Most NSS transitions fall under this category, as any character with a fast 2A can stuff him. Similarly, 4KK and BE 4K both lose to 2As or iWS attacks that duck the second hit--the BE version's final mid attack is simply too slow. This trait makes me inclined to think that his effectiveness will diminish over time as players become more effective at recognizing and countering his options, but the sheer damage he can do, combined with his CE, guard meter game, and returning impressive grab range, lead me to believe that he should always be able to at least compete.
In Semi-Detail:
After Cervantes, I probably spent the most time playing around with NM. I certainly fought against him the most. Overall, I was shocked that he wasn't terrible (I've loathed his design since the SC3 re-work). In fact, his damage output and guard break game--the latter provisionally, since I'm not sure about safety--make him seem quite viable, especially in the early game.
AgA remains a staple both at range 0 and at tip. The guard break still appears to make 66K uninterruptable, so on block it allows you to start pressuring your opponent once they've been trained to respect it. 33B is still a staple launch. 3B is far less safe than it used to be, but 3(B) seems promising as you can mix your followups to encourage opponents to punish you mostly with 2As and other very fast attacks, and the damage reward you get for landing the move more than compensates for that risk. GS B is a much improved launcher now; GS B, GS B, BE GS K->W!, 4KK->W!, 3(B), NSS bA is a combo from the right distance, which is just ridiculous. Even without the wall nonsense, he's still doing a grip of damage when he lands that move, and it actually seemed to track a wee bit. 44(B) also yields impressive damage rewards, considering its overall risk, and 3AA_3A2A is much better, given its newfound speed combined with impressive range. Impressive range, I might add, is a trait shared by a number of his moves. AgA might have lost some, as did 33B, but he still has a number of long-range, slower attacks which all seem to cover step (66A, 44A, 22AA, etc) and appear as though they will have a solid place in his arsenal.
Nightmare can make very effective use of BE attacks in combos, but I'd recommend trying to keep a CE stocked at all times. Knowing NM has one of those counters in his arsenal radically changes the way the matchup has to be approached, and it gives NM more opportunities to work the guard meter while his opponent is trying to find a safer way to mount offense. Incidentally, however, the CE counter can be stepped, and it also fails to counter throws and unblockable attacks.
Nightmare's major downside is that he still provides opponents with many "solvable" situations, by which I mean he creates scenarios wherein there is a single defensive option which defeats everything he can throw at you. Most NSS transitions fall under this category, as any character with a fast 2A can stuff him. Similarly, 4KK and BE 4K both lose to 2As or iWS attacks that duck the second hit--the BE version's final mid attack is simply too slow. This trait makes me inclined to think that his effectiveness will diminish over time as players become more effective at recognizing and countering his options, but the sheer damage he can do, combined with his CE, guard meter game, and returning impressive grab range, lead me to believe that he should always be able to at least compete.
Tiamat
[11] Champion
I merged it to this thread because I don't want people making a new thread each time someone gets a first crack at him. Thanks for the insight though. It mostly matches what I've been thinking.
Paragon049
[10] Knight
Getting low options reworked or removed seems to be a trend amongst most of the cast. I'm guessing the reason he lost 11B is because they wanted NM to be more aggressive this time around (Emphasis on gauge game and new options to stuff retaliatory offense like A+B and CE), and a low that was mainly used as a ranged poke didn't really fit into that. That still doesn't explain why 11K is gone though, lol.
thanks a bunch, that's a very good write up, however, i believe his NSS transitions can be fatal at times because most characters can CE his ass while he's transitioning.
im really mad they removed 11k but retained 22k.
Dr. Hates
Jerk.
Possibly/probably. CE punishment is something that will radically change the game, I think, but it will take a little time to evolve.
Engared
[10] Knight
I can confirm this. However some pokes like Raph's and Aeon's BBB still hurt majorly on counter-hit.
Engared
[10] Knight
Its safety which is my biggest concern and I believe the biggest stumbling block to his overall competitiveness. Cause everything else which he has gained makes him very strong. Though CE punishes are very scary, they do use one whole meter which is something to consider in the grand scheme of things. The CE "invulnerable" frame and priority also worries me more when it comes to Nightmare, cause I don't mind giving up 80 damage punish to a generally non-comboed CE, but I do mind giving up a 80 damage punish in a situation where I should be on advantage.
66A seems to still be positive on block and 66B seems to be neutral or close to it.
@Hteng- Nightmare's CE will monster stances like Mitsu's Mist, NSS, Prep, most of Sieg's transitions, maybe even PO etc.
@Tiamat- this should go into the speculation tread.
KingAce
HERMITISM
lol I thought it was funny when NM's CE got countered with a CE. Technically speaking you can't GI's CEs, just like throws and UBs. Good to know.
Panther
[09] Warrior
Unfortunately you can JG UBs. Unless they took that out of the game since November, because it was in TGN vids.
Engared
[10] Knight
Why do you keep talking then? Its almost like you want our character to be so bad so that he can join your low-tier arsenal lol.
KingAce
HERMITISM
I am pretty sure that's not what I want. But I hate blind optimism. Especially when it exaggerates the character, misguiding people in the process.
Hates' impressions are pretty spot on from what I have seen, so I am going with his analysis until I get the game.
page
[11] Champion
"Nightmare might not be terrible in this completely new game."
Somehow that comes across as blind optimism to you?
Somehow that comes across as blind optimism to you?
Sacharja
[12] Conqueror
For Nightmare, it does.
Engared
[10] Knight
I guess me calling him a "B tier" character in my character impressions comes across as blind optimism.
Call me blind but after 3 games of crap (SC3), beyond crap (SC3 AE) and barely competitive or moderately strong (SC4), its very easy for me to be optimistic about the new Nightmare.
ioKain
[09] Warrior
I still think 66A with it's new GS transition will be a nice a tool if it is indeed + frames on block. Especially against short ranged characters. With proper spacing short ranged characters will not be able to 2A you out of NSS, GSB on block.
Dr. Hates
Jerk.
66A is good, particularly since people are going to want to step on you a lot. That said, the key is to make sure you use it at tip range. Up close, there's much more likelihood of bad stuff happening--people will duck it on reaction sometimes, and I got moderately good results by quickstepping twice to NM's left (free back throw if you're fast!).
Engared
[10] Knight
I'm more worried about linearity than anything else for Nightmare.
Unsafety that's more or less expected but becoming very linear is bad (unlikely but still a fear).