Non-CH 3B Follow-ups

HajimeOwari

HajimeOwari

[11] Champion
Every Yoshi plays differently. This seems especially true after non-CH 3B. Assuming there are still some Yoshi players reading the forums, this thread is to discuss non-CH 3B combos and the strongest options you get (or don't get) after. I'll only add commentary to the follow-ups I've used extensively. Common follow-ups I've seen thus far include...


3B, a:B+K, 1B_66B (character specific or opponent isn't teching) - 52 & 58 dmg respectively

No wakes at all and you move yourself out of optimal range. RO potential if near an edge. DNK follow-up if near a wall.


3B, a:B+K, run up to the opponent

Terrible damage, but you can create some pretty strong wake-up games (throws, 33B, FC 3K, etc.) if you know how the opponent will react on you running in.


3B, DNK, 3B

Creates strong wakes and does 55 dmg. Small chance opponent can JUkemi, but that's a free throw attempt. Strongest follow-up, but precise timing makes or breaks this combo.


3B, 33B [B+K]

Creates strong wakes and does 60 dmg. Unfortunately, this combo is ACable by a knowledgeable opponent. Whether it is ACable based on mistiming the B+K follow-up is yet to be 100% proven, since the 33B can be canceled at various times. I encourage other Yoshis to test whether their own personal timing on 33B B+K can be ACed.

3B, 44bB, a:B+K

Timing is incredibly tight on a non-CH 3B. Not worth the risk considering the timing issue.


3B, 4A JFs, a:B+K, etc.

More power to you if you can hit this. The strengths and weaknesses of this particular follow-up should be apparent.


Other 3B Combos
3B, a:B+K, 44B+K and 44B+K stance mix-ups
3B, 6K
3B, 66K (Playing with this one to bait CH iMCFs, etc.)

IMO, 33B [B+K] seems like the most reliable, most damaging, error-free follow-up if the opponent doesn't know which way to AC. If the opponent does know which way to AC, what's a Yoshi to do? Give up damage for potential wakes? Chance mistimed DNK for potential RO opportunities? Same for 4A JFs? Same for 44bB? Discuss!
 
hotnikkelz said:
I use these almost exclusively. i love 44B+K shit.
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Damnit, johnny! I said discuss! Why? What works when they get used to your MED "mix-ups" (if you can call them that)? Or do you even bother canceling into stances anymore? You just trying to break gauge? More details!
 
33B [B+K] is not ACable. You simply have to wait for the opponent to fall directly in front of you. Obviously the [B+K] has to be done as quickly as possible for it always to connect. Best option imo unless you going for ring out pressure in which case a:B+K -> 44B+K is king.

33B has a surprisingly big hitbox for those of you who dont know.
 
SCFreak: Did you test it? Turn on AC and test your own timing. Specifically ACing to the right, back right, etc. Hit 33B [B+K] consistently and then come back, please.

Also, consider the fact that if you [B+K] too early you cancel the 33B hit. [B+K] too late and the opponent has a bigger chance to AC.

Again. Why 44B+K? The opponent can sleep on it. Discuss your options. Please, cite only examples from experience (read: serious offline play). No theory fighter allowed.
 
actually one thing I like to mix into a match a few times is going for the 4A series..and if I notice early that I miss-hit somewhere I stop it early before the 5th hit... does decent damage and gives startling wakes because a lot of the time people get up right away after you attempt a mid-air 4A series because they want a free hit on you if you didn't get the "recovery" just version. And then of course if you make the full series then you are getting the most damage of any of the combos with 3b, 4A series, a:b+k, DNK, 3b or however else you wanted to end it (that on non-counter is (EDIT: 92) damage right there...while a non-completed 4A series is about 43 damage with the tricky wake that gives a good grab attempt). And then of course it has the best ringout potential as well. Online.. I don't go for it usually...but offline my timing is pretty legit.

If you know your opponent is not into teching then another great option is simply a:b+k into 236B as thats over 100 damage in total. If they tend to tech left to avoid this and to avoid 66B (as a lot of players that know anything about yoshi seem to do) then instead of using 236B just use 8A+B4 (this also will hit rollers and those teching to the right as long as they move after teching to the right a little)

33B b+k is the safest option..which in and of itself makes it a very good and viable choice. And the dnk is a good option too (one I never use though..but use in training mode has shown it to work well).

There is no BAD answer.. everything with yoshi's game is situational..both to who your playing..what you know of your opponent...what CHARACTER the other person is using (ex: not always the best choice to use 8A+B options against asty)...your position on a given level (whats best to RO with..knowing if a given air tech trap won't work because there is a wall too close..etc).

And I too want to know about this 44B+K business. I mean I guess I understand it. Sometimes I like to use one of the 66(etc) A+B cancels into a grab on wake...makes the opponent freeze. But at least 66A+B hits grounded...so I don't get the 44b+k option all that much...i agree therefore..explain.

Online I tend to just go with the tech traps...because..well...lag makes them even harder to get out of I guess is part of it..lol. And also because of the annoyance of me missing my just series. Offline...4A series usually..SOMETIMES go for a tech trap after a:b+k. Depending on how much damage I need to do for the kill I might just do 6k though. And of course I also use 33b b+k both on and offline...especially if I have my back to a wall or edge. Its nice to switch positions.
 
HajimeOwari said:
Damnit, johnny! I said discuss! Why? What works when they get used to your MED "mix-ups" (if you can call them that)? Or do you even bother canceling into stances anymore? You just trying to break gauge? More details!
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sowwy, my bad hahahaha.

Ok post a:B+K in juggles.
44B+K -> PG B is uninterruptable, and it's pretty hard to step reflexively. Everyone techs after this juggle, and by right i think they should, cuz then 66B or 66A+B will combo if they're lazy to do so.

With that knowledge i mix PG options with regular cancels. The MED stuff i hardly use too much, unless i feel very stylish and want to do the teleport or MD A (MD B annoys me with its random whiffs), otherwise i'd usually stick to regular cancels -> FC or PG mixups. If i cancel to neutral I will do a mixup, but remember that vs aggressors remember Yoshi's defensive game in the form of warp and 214A as well as FC aB. Very adventurous, but it brings me joy to use due to the mindgames employed.

At my disposal PG has [K] (safe on hit),which is never blocked (cuz of PG K they look exactly alike), B+K which looks like PG A cancel and various other PG movements which i use to bait a potential PG B(CH) or make them block a PG . I like to do shit in PG like tap backward 3 times very very quickly and that will give a kinda jerky movement (u have to see it to know what i'm talking about) or i may do 2 rapid 2A+Ks and that sometimes nets me a PG B(CH) for eg.
There's also the option of PG dash on sleepers and PG A is pretty decent for it's horizontal property and the existence of PG B+K makes it a bit gimmicky. Keep in mind even when it's punished on block, it'll be an air hit.

Apart from 44B+K, i'd do 66A+B mixups for the same purpose, but i find when they tech, i'm sometimes off axis to mixup in the way i'd like but it's still valuable regardless since i have access to iMCF quite more readily.
 
You could also incorrperate Tekken moves like T4 into the mix..
Like 3B, 66K, T4, (on hit) 66B etc...
T4 is the Tekken move at second 4 (Teleport Knucklebuster UB)... (I know some1 would've asked)
 
One of the big problems i find with 4:a series is not the just frame itself, but the recovery. To me it seems random at best. I can either let go of the controller and press a 5 times and still not recover or I can mash on A after the 5th hit and i will recover. I guess the recovery is like even a more "perfect" jf.

I mean, if you are REALLY good with the 4:a series you probably could do it until they are dead or rung out. The most I have done it is 3 times (that actually hit) from a 3b. And I have done 4 perfectly but after the 2nd they rung out. Mind you, this was all done in training mode to test this out. Basically it is extremely unlikely to happen but even if you manage to get 2 perfect 4:a and then an a:b+k after, you got hilde ring out range.

I mean, there is probably some japanese guy practicing the 4:a series as we speak who probably can get someone locked in the ballerina of death.

33b [b+k] is not recoverable, I have tested it in all directions however it requires strict timing with the b+k. Something that always gives reliable damage is just following it with a 6k after. Easy to do but they can air control away; it still provides a solid hit from the launcher. Another one is doing a 2A+B, 6 [6] but from that one you cant do anything on the wakeup cause yoshi himself will have to recover, it is handy however to push them closer to edges or walls.
 
Cicada said:
To me it seems random at best. I can either let go of the controller and press a 5 times and still not recover or I can mash on A after the 5th hit and i will recover. I guess the recovery is like even a more "perfect" jf.
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Not random, just insanely hard to do repeatedly and consistently. I like to call 4A: jf juggles theoretical. Problem is if you mess up you're fucked and that's going to be > 85% of the time. That narrows its usage tremendously for me.
 
I'm finding myself going back to 3B, DNK, 3B for the strong wakes and superior damage. Although 3B, 66K does offer some nice wakes as well.

HotNikkelz: Those FLE options sound interesting, although it does seem funky to mix-up from PG. Do you find you have to try and bait a CH attack often? You still have to explain your PG B+K use, since recovery is slow as hell on it. I do get it TCs and sidesteps on some frames. Would you say that finishing with 3B, a:B+K, 44B+K -> into FLE mix-ups is a stronger finisher than 3B, DNK, 3B?

Cicada: Perhaps my timing is bad, but I still find it missing occasionally, even when I'm paying strict attention to the timing. That timing being hitting B+K immediately after 33B hits. I'll do some final testing with the record function to verify whether it truly is a timing issue or it is missing based on the opponent's position in the air ACing to the right.
 
Done testing 33B B+K in juggles for the 5th time. Thoroughly this time. Conclusion. It IS ACable. Use your own record function. Record the most perfect 3B, 33B [B+K] juggle. AC to Yoshi's left (your right). Do this over and over again until you see it miss. =/ The B+K occasionally misses based on the position of the opponent in the air and the direction they're ACing. So, once again, 33B [B+K] is NOT guaranteed. So, factor in the timing issue and the occasional miss if your opponent ACs correctly and you have a non-guaranteed juggle.

Edit: This was tested on Yoshi. There is a chance it is guaranteed on larger opponents, but no proof as of yet.
 
I've just done some (not too thorough) testing of my own, and wasn't able to get it to hit consistently. Unless someone else shows up to say otherwise, it looks to me like Hajime is right about 33B [B+K]. It's possible that all the times it was AC-able were simply due to imperfect timing, but if that's so then I won't be using it anyway because my timing is just not good enough (same reason I don't use the 4A JF series-- it's just impractical). Is there anyone here who can go into training mode, pop out 50 or so 3B, 33B [B+K]s, and have them all hit a computer set to AC to the right?

Anyway, if it really is AC-able, or if it's only guaranteed with timing I just don't have, then I think DNK, 3B is the best followup option. The timing on this is much easier so I can get it very consistently, the damage is only 5 less than that given by 33B [B+K], and the wakes are good. a:B+K is still king near an edge, obviously.
 
HajimeOwari said:
Done testing 33B B+K in juggles for the 5th time. Thoroughly this time. Conclusion. It IS ACable. Use your own record function. Record the most perfect 3B, 33B [B+K] juggle. AC to Yoshi's left (your right). Do this over and over again until you see it miss. =/ The B+K occasionally misses based on the position of the opponent in the air and the direction they're ACing. So, once again, 33B [B+K] is NOT guaranteed. So, factor in the timing issue and the occasional miss if your opponent ACs correctly and you have a non-guaranteed juggle.

Edit: This was tested on Yoshi. There is a chance it is guaranteed on larger opponents, but no proof as of yet.
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Interesting, I thought everytime I missed was due to the fact I messed up on my timing. I'll have to go check it out.

Another cool setup from a:b+k is doing 6b+k,8b+k cause you do a jump forward into dragon fly. You can pretty much mix it up from there with super dragon fly or with what you like.
 
HajimeOwari said:
I'm finding myself going back to 3B, DNK, 3B for the strong wakes and superior damage. Although 3B, 66K does offer some nice wakes as well.

HotNikkelz: Those FLE options sound interesting, although it does seem funky to mix-up from PG. Do you find you have to try and bait a CH attack often? You still have to explain your PG B+K use, since recovery is slow as hell on it. I do get it TCs and sidesteps on some frames. Would you say that finishing with 3B, a:B+K, 44B+K -> into FLE mix-ups is a stronger finisher than 3B, DNK, 3B?
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NO i don't have to bait often at all, cuz i have the advantage into PG. I choose to bait from time to time. Variety is important to me. The recovery of PG B+K isn't that slow....if u use PG A enough. I find my opponents ducking when they see the roll. Then of course not seeing the attack, the try to do...usually a WS attack...by that time i've gained adv from their hesitation, and i have warp, 214A and MCF at my disposal. Gimmicky i admit, but it works for me.

Superior to 3B DNK 3B? NEVER, DNK combos are always superior..but 3B -> DNK tends to be very flaky vs some...and it's pretty tough as well in general.
 
sort of in response to this thread: I've been trying to see if I could get 4A: A: A: A: A after 3B with any kind of consistency, and I've gotten to the point where I can get every hit to have the JF flash most of the time. but even then, I usually still fall over after, and it doesn't relaunch. I've searched and seen all the answers as to why this happens, but it's still perplexing to me. anyway, I used the record feature of training mode to record one in which I got every flash but not the relaunch, and when I play it back it will sometimes relaunch anyway! so what the heck. it seems completely random to me.
 
fourba said:
sort of in response to this thread: I've been trying to see if I could get 4A: A: A: A: A after 3B with any kind of consistency, and I've gotten to the point where I can get every hit to have the JF flash most of the time. but even then, I usually still fall over after, and it doesn't relaunch. I've searched and seen all the answers as to why this happens, but it's still perplexing to me. anyway, I used the record feature of training mode to record one in which I got every flash but not the relaunch, and when I play it back it will sometimes relaunch anyway! so what the heck. it seems completely random to me.
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The relaunch is guranteed, but the recovery is not. Just make sure you do not do the 4:a's too quickly or else you will go under them.
 
oh, my bad. I guess I've been getting the relaunch but not the recovery. when you say the recovery isn't guaranteed, you mean it's possible to get all the just inputs and still miss the recovery, right? there has to be some way to guarantee it, though, I'm sure. I must just be still doing something wrong most of the time.
 
Well, after doing some testing.... the recovery appears to be random..... here is how i tested it.

In practice mode using the record command function, I would do 4:a's on the yoshi until I did the one where he would recover. After, I repeated the move many times over. It turns out sometimes he will recover, and sometimes he will fall over.

If anyone else would like to test they can but it appears the move is random for recovery.......
 
Wong Fei Hong (a French player) and me had already discussed about this problem 4 months ago. He said that the recovery from 4AAAAA was random because of the record function in Practice Mode.
At first, I thought it was just not optimized. But now that I can do all the JF pretty well, I begin to think that WFH was right. The fact is that the 4AAA's recovery can be clearly abused if somebody master it. Maybe i'm wrong but I can understand that it could be random... just like the seppukku A:A !!
 
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