Raphael Frame Data

Mandritti

[09] Warrior
44ab is neg -16......so you have to risk prep off it.....sigh.....

It's -16 and force crouch. It's also got the least reactable prep transition IMO. You by no means "have to" risk prep off of it unless dealing with i14 mid mashing out of everything you do.
EDIT: I mean think about this. Sure, you may face a modified +14 or something rape mixup from the opponent out of that block with you gelled for 20 (21? 23? How slow would their move have to be to let Raph step it?), but... the alternative is you doing something with prep.

*lets that sink in*

EDIT2: Oh, and Prepping out of an actual CH with this is really bad. Opponent ukemis left and is not at disadvantage, you off-axis.

CAN ANYONE BREAK DOWN, FRAME, IMPACT(ACTUAL TELEPORT WHERE YOU'RE EVADING MOVES), RECOVERY FRAMES, THE ENTIRE MOVE, OF Raphael's reverse teleport(4A+K? Can't remember directional notation on this)

I wasn't using science on it but I was messing with this in Training too, and tentatively, A+K is SO DAMN SLOW, like 66A+BG. It's possible, it's possible, but flash still won't get you somewhere. You have to respond to something big and dumb, or anyone will just BT A you on reaction after the fact. Or BT 2K.

And I think you mean BT A+K4.

Some live data... the few times I've TPd online... if people are seeing this **** online, you can finish this sentence.


*~*~*~
I'll be looking to get data up for 1BB and 33B - you notice there's some (?)'s in there. I'd also like to separate 33B from 99B, not on the basis of my theory about their hitbox differences, but simply for the fact that the moves *are* different - one steps left, the other steps right. Most 8WR moves are absolutely identical. I'd argue Taki's 33K and 99K separated for the same reason.
 

BelovedChild

[09] Warrior
I've used it online vs Mitsu/Algol in particular, Algol due to bubble games n' bullshit, and Mitsu due to stance mixups at mid/long range. Yes though, I'm sure there was something I could have done more appropriate(236B vs Mitsu's stance at range) and Algol(66B/236B can work well sometimes vs bubbles)...so gay...if this move was 5/6 frames faster, it could actually see some interesting use and Raphael would have a very unique characteristic about him that would attract more players.
 

WuHT

Premium Moderator
Copied over from caliburforum, figured this post was worth saving before the wipe.

--Kolhell's work
You can get exact frame data by solving simultaneous equations and using a bit of logic.

ok first im going to define some variables to represent unknown frame data for some of raphs moves:

bB = frame advantage for B on block
b6B = frame advantage for 6B on block
bBB = frame advantage for BB on block
iB = impact on B
i3A = impact on 3A
i8K = impact on 8K
i8B = impact on 8B

after a blocked B, B will trade with 3A.
-bB + iB = i3A
(its a minus sign bc this the standards for frame advantage notation are stupid)

after a blocked B, 3A will trade with 8K
-bB + i3A = i8K

after a blocked B, 8K will trade with 8B
-bB + i8K = i8B

after a blocked 6B, B will trade with 8K
-b6B + iB = i8K

after a blocked 6B, 3A will trade with 8B
-b6B + i3A = i8B

after a blocked BB, B will trade with 8B
-bBB + iB = i8B

with this you can show that:
2*bB = b6B
3*bB = bBB

we know that these variables MUST be integers (no decimals/fractions in frame data) so if bB must be = -1, -2, -3, -4, -5, etc... then bBB must be = -3, -6, -9, -12, -15, etc...

now, if you take ALL of raphs moves and mark down which ones are equal to each other on impact and then rank them from fastest to slowest, youll see that there are at least 11 "steps" between B and 8B:
B < 1B < 8A+B < 6B+K < 3A < 22B < 4B < 1K < 8K < 22A < 8A < 8B
so according to -bBB + iB = i8B, bBB cannot be -3, -6, or -9 as that simply would not leave enough steps in between B and 8B for all of these moves to be ranked in this order. this narrows BB on block to -12, -15, -18, etc...

according to tiamats data sophs A is i11 and cass' A is 1 frame slower at i12. sophs A can punish a blocked BB while cass' A cannot, which means that the impact frame sophs A = raphs disadvantage on a blocked BB, which makes sophs A = i12, i15, i18, etc...


well get back to that stuff later, but for now we need to relate a couple more moves to each other:

after hitting with raphs A, 3A will trade with B. this means that raphs A on hit gives the same number of frames advantage as B gives disadvantage on block.

after hitting with raphs A, B will trade with soph's A.



ok, so now were going to make a couple assumptions.

first: well suppose raphs BB is -12 on block. this would make sophs A i12, raphs B i16, and raphs 8B i28 (connects .467 seconds after input.)

second: well suppose raphs BB is -15 in block. this would makee sophs A i15, raphs B i20, and raphs 8B i35 (connects .583 seconds after input.)

this is easily checked with a stopwatch - 8B takes just under a half second to hit after input, so BB on block is -12 and sophs A is i12. i could give a more elaborate proof of this, but i dont think anyone here wants to read more of that.



alternately we could just use occams razor (in short: the simplest solution is correct) and say that since tiamats impact data is -very- close to accurate, it logically follows that his system is correct and only 1 frame off rather than that the whole thing is flawed.
 

Kolhell

[08] Mercenary
I transferred Kolhell's frame data to Raph's wiki page if anyone's actually interested in that.

I stumbled upon this thread as I was googling myself. I have spent this night revisiting these forums, and I am wildly honored by what I have found. I lost my laptop and only computer when I stopped posting, and I had thought my data lost to the ages.

I cannot overstate how gratified I am to see throws listed as i17 on the sc4 wiki and how this community has both saved and continued my work from data I thought was lost as I found myself in a hole and ejected from college in my very-early 20s. I am sorry that I forgot my way home, but I love you all for preserving the work I did on this frame data even as my college shut down my access to my filebox. (kids: backups are important)

Although I expect nobody will ever read this I want to say that I am well. I am the one and only Kolhell (except on Steam... damn Vikings) and if you are willing to filter the extremely-leftist propaganda I spew at 35yo I welcome anyone reading to hunt me down on fb by this same handle. Drop me a PM stating "8wr" if I don't respond, or generally feel free to slide into my DMs if you want to chat :)

Thank you all again, thank you always 8wr for hosting us, and again I am honored by all of your contributions: knowledge has no right but to be free.
 

WuHT

Premium Moderator
Although I expect nobody will ever read this I want to say that I am well.
Glad to hear it.
if you are willing to filter the extremely-leftist propaganda I spew at 35yo I welcome anyone reading to hunt me down on fb by this same handle.

Thank you all again, thank you always 8wr for hosting us, and again I am honored by all of your contributions: knowledge has no right but to be free.
Amusingly enough the 8wayrun admin Jaxel who made it all possible, may be the polar opposite of you politically, but also shares the same values of preserving data and enabling accessibility for everyone.
 

SenoritaMama

[09] Warrior
I stumbled upon this thread as I was googling myself. I have spent this night revisiting these forums, and I am wildly honored by what I have found. I lost my laptop and only computer when I stopped posting, and I had thought my data lost to the ages.

I cannot overstate how gratified I am to see throws listed as i17 on the sc4 wiki and how this community has both saved and continued my work from data I thought was lost as I found myself in a hole and ejected from college in my very-early 20s. I am sorry that I forgot my way home, but I love you all for preserving the work I did on this frame data even as my college shut down my access to my filebox. (kids: backups are important)

Although I expect nobody will ever read this I want to say that I am well. I am the one and only Kolhell (except on Steam... damn Vikings) and if you are willing to filter the extremely-leftist propaganda I spew at 35yo I welcome anyone reading to hunt me down on fb by this same handle. Drop me a PM stating "8wr" if I don't respond, or generally feel free to slide into my DMs if you want to chat :)

Thank you all again, thank you always 8wr for hosting us, and again I am honored by all of your contributions: knowledge has no right but to be free.
You're more than welcome, bud. Glad all is well with you.