Raphael General Discussion

If I see 3B into nothing... I'll do whatever I do when I have minor advantage. I'll either do a mid immediately to discourage interruption, or run up and then do a mixup, RCC into BB. I didn't think that 3B's pushback was so huge that I would be out of normal mid range, but even if that's the case, it's no different than having minor advantage against kilik after blocking with someone, inside kilik's range but outside yours. I guess I'm trying to say that your options aren't necessarily that powerful, but it's still advantage and Raph's options shouldn't be more powerful than yours.

Out of curiosity then, what to do on disadvantage with Raph into prep? Just guess between guarding normally and a TC attack? Also is what I said accurate, Raph on disadvantage/neutral into prep, does step 2A beat all his options?
 
thats what im' trying to get it: that it is harder to break prep with a high damage combo by simply crouching and waiting than it appears (without taking risks yourself). However it's agreed that crouch n wait counters a lot of raph's direct approachs (ie attacking from stance immediately).

a clean/deep step into 2A after blocking a prep entry move is highly vulernable to SEA B CH. If you step a tiny bit into 2A then it's a lot more effective, but i'll look into what options raph has so you can keep that in mind as well.
 
just a point the crouch and wait option is avoidable with spacing >.>
At least against a lot of characters you can SEA against ppl who use that option
Hitting at tip changes really a lot ._.

Sometimes you can even enter SEB >.> cause you teach your oppo to wait then SEA and he know that from crouch if out of 2A range he risk a lot if he moves....then SEB can be entered with few risk depending on the opponent...

I think voldo best option btw is 236B -.-
That low is superTC and so goes under all prep mixups....if i recall correctly.
 
darkfender said:
just a point the crouch and wait option is avoidable with spacing >.>
At least against a lot of characters you can SEA against ppl who use that option
Hitting at tip changes really a lot ._.
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You say that, and I want it to be so, but I don't know that it's true.

A while ago I looked into just Prep 2 vs. Asta, in response to something you said (I thought I mentioned it; w/e), seeing what the options "felt like" from Asta's perspective if he blocks the 3 (also 6B). For the block case, I anti-spaced my Asta against the recorded Raph's 3~etc., and no matter how far I was, I could do... like, anything to Raph in Shadow Evade, worse obviously if I counterhit SEA B. He can even 6AB CH combo, ffs.
Importantly, I found later that I could calmly delay a certain amount, and this delay still let Asta **** up SEA, but blocks Prep A. Yes. Far from being a high risk high reward situation as I thought from the "Prep A beats everything but everything beats Prep not-A", if the other guy is prepared as a pro would be, it's an all-risk impossible-reward situation.

Sure, not everybody is Asta with vacuum scalp bullrush and crouch throw, but most characters in this game have a not-stick weapon length. (inb4kilikhazrod)
If I'm right to generalize to other characters, it only supports the conclusion that adding numbers will give you: Prep 2 doesn't work off block.
 
i said against a lot of characters...
Mitsu for ex.

I never fought an asta that crouched prep. They can afford to risk a 6k due to their massive damage or just block if they expect prepA

But for example lot of mitsus know for ex that FC 3B:B (followed by 33B .-.) stops all prep mixups, the damage is huge and they risk only a prep A in NH ....

Playing one i discovered that spacing would shoutdown that option....so i tested against various characters (sisters for ex).

Now step is still the best option against prep...2A is not that good answer in most cases.

The sad thing is 3/4 cast have at least a move that shut down really ALL prep mixups with a super TC option or low risk high reward option.
 
I don't get it ._.

You say on NH of 3 i suppose we should press A instead of going with BB (NC) or should we 3B A?

GI against prep btw are not a problem you can delay all as much u want to make GI whiff.
 
No... he means after they crouch and eat a prep A on NH , and they know they're at +6, they'll try to stuff you with a quick BB or some similar move.



Anyways..

Imo, -2 to -5 is still good to immediately step after, but any frames higher and you better be perfect with your timing or stick with GI.

1B on hit, 4K and 3K on block are what you should practice with (to see what evasive manuevers you can do at -6 while baiting an enemy retaliation).
 
Why go into prep on block anyway? All that shit is steppable. 3B on block into any prep stuff was never good to me when I played good steppers. So I snuffed prep outside of combos.

Raph's weapon has such a horrible hit box, sometimes it goes right through characters, even SEA A is steppable.

If I go into prep on block, I just want a quick exist.

3B and 6B for me all for punishing. At least 6B is safe.
 
KingAce said:
Why go into prep on block anyway? All that shit is steppable. 3B on block into any prep stuff was never good to me when I played good steppers. So I snuffed prep outside of combos.

Raph's weapon has such a horrible hit box, sometimes it goes right through characters, even SEA A is steppable.

If I go into prep on block, I just want a quick exist.

3B and 6B for me all for punishing. At least 6B is safe.
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-prep onblock are not that easy to deal with....if you use few...
-u need to use some to avoid 3B punishment .-.
-SEAB deals with left step
-not all characters have a good step to deal with it.
-3 on tip is out of prepA range unfortunately but its quite good even on block.
-there is also 11A
-it is useful also for preps on hit

Preps are not raph main tool but they are not terrible as ppl says.
 
I disagree, outside of combos his prep stuff is pretty terrible.

I enter prep when my 3B and 44AB is blocked when I thought it would hit. Meaning, it's to save my ass.

And the sad thing is if Raph is off axis even by a little bit, he whiffs pretty bad.

So if some one can step really well, even if they don't punish me, they still have advantage and I am in awkward position.

I don't know which characters you mean when you say good step, Raphael is the easiest character to successfully side step. And if they can't step Prep they probably have a move that can cover prep options pretty well.
 
astaroth cannot step him so easily as you think

And step just put the risk reward against you but its not true that you still get 100% screwed...

Well maybe ppl i played with despite being good players are not that good against raph ._. but even in tournament vids i don't see many ppl punish/step prep 100% when the raph users do not abuse preps.

And using those type of attitude towards raph just help your mindgame...
Prep worst problem is being punished 4 out of 5 options.
If an opponent just answer always the same way you can just abuse that 1 out of 5....you should see how many SEAB CH i made some mitsus eat...

Ofc it depends on matchup also soph can punish 5 out of 5 :(
 
It depends on your experience, I have played Raph players, I also play raphael my way.

I have come across very aggressive players who spam prep to death, and sometimes they get away with it, they get lucky I step the wrong side whatever....so they think prep is a good idea. Then at key moments in a match I step launch them a couple times and they die...simple and clean.

Fact is with prep the defender always has the advantage, whether they step or not, if they block your prep stuff, they can still punish you for free.

Asta's step against prep is just like everyone else's. And 6AB and kills all of prep from block. SEA is the risk you take if you don't want to get caught, but that's also free Crouch grab attempts or knees.
 
well i don't know asta 6AB (i played some very good asta and they usually go with 6K risking a prepA or VE step but stopping prepB and SE).

Btw i agree that raph is a defensive character with good tool for punishing....but just to vary i use prep 2 times a match on block and it usually works obviously i don't go in supermixup of thousands command...i just prepB or prepBB just to train my opponent that i could use a followup on 3B.....

But what i am trying to say is this...
One year ago trying to put up a decent raph i started reading lot of 8wr stuff...and came to a conclusion:"OMGWTF if my prep gets blocked once i'll lose next 3 rounds for the punishment and shame...."
I almost quit preps at all...but in mirror despite knowing correctly how to react to them i got hit by many -.- (see prepB delay or SEA or else).

So i tried do test those more and turned out its not that easy and btw ppl react differently to them.
So i think before coming to conclusion we should see what ur opponents will do against prep.
For sure i won't use long strings on block.

I still think that step is the best antiprep tools but reacting always in the same way like many ppl do, is just an half victory if we can put up a dcent mindgame.
 
vs prep just duck yo...most people use it to pressure but its kinda hard to pressure when the only mid worth using is -6 on hit
 
Well BC I would say the only difference is our style. You aim to dominate with pressure. I aim to mentality breakdown with confusion.

From what I see you take many risks, that work sometimes and can just as easily be countered other times. So if we're comparing Raphaels yours is definitely more aggressive.

When I face you, I already know this in the back of my mind, even though you may take some games off me, I am certain I will win more overtime. All I really do with cervy or NM is step and launch, step and launch. So even though your prep might work sometimes and catch me, if I get you a couple times the momentum will swing back on my side.

My Raphael philosophy is to let my opponent make the mistake of attacking me, so that I can either punish them or counter them. It helps that I can read my opponents habits and styles the more I play them.

I use 6B and 3B to interrupt and punish. I enter prep on block only when my 3B gets blocked because my punishing timing was off, so there my hand is forced. But this situation can tell you a lot, if someone is attempting to step your prep options; I try not to use it. If someone is ducking and attacking, then I note that the for prep A. Otherwise I avoid prep, because the risk reward isn't in my favor.

I also step a lot and do a ton of 33KB. Sidestep is usually how I win these days. It's risky because I don't check for whiffing, I just step directly into 33KB. But I also throw a lot, after sidestepping.

But my sidestepping is usually setup, after 8K, 44K on block, 66A+B on block, 1K on hit. So I hate antistep, but if they're constantly trying to kill my step I got options there as well.

I try to poke with lows and punish every little thing I can see, to frustrate my opponent into doing something rash. Eventually all of raph's punishing combo's start working because my opponent is flustered thus making mistakes.

It's simple really I don't commit to anything, and let them take the initiative. I sniff out whiffing by back stepping and side stepping. At most ranges I am faster that most of the cast, up close his kicks a pretty good.

Lol I also use 2_8B+K while stepping, it's fun because most people won't punish it when it whiffs, even the AI.( which punishes every little neg frame u give it)

I just try not expose myself basically, but also try to keep my opponent in check.
 
I think you misunderstood me.

IF i can, i play only on defense and is what i do best (and raph too ._.).

The problem is that it happens you face a very skilled opponent who really knows raph well.....there is no way to confuse an opponent who analyzed raph moveset completely :< so you basically have to use something they do not expect.....or they will just attack you with few safe moves and step everything you'll do.
A risky mixup can be useful in train them to react as you want even if you get hit....

The problem is al here

My Raphael philosophy is to let my opponent make the mistake of attacking me, so that I can either punish them or counter them. It helps that I can read my opponents habits and styles the more I play them.
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a good player will never do this mistake if they know they can win with few safe hori-mids...they don't go for 60 dmg strings they rely on 15-30....and they can poke you better and punish better.

If our opponent just attack, well its an easy fight even if its amy or mitsurugi, we have pleny of tools to stop pressure, unfortunately we have almost any decent poke or attack tool that tracks :/
 
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