raphael match up chart

not 22B alone but yeah generally

22B beats rocks bull rush so spacing him would work well
 
Bubbles said:
raphs 44B beats all of her 4b+K options
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Right, I mentioned that WL (4B+K) could be beaten out by him (I said 236B as an example, but it's not all he has). But Talim's not going to want to use this much anyway since she wants to be closer, not backstep.

Bubbles said:
her step doesnt matter because she has to get close, in that situation raph kills step
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She closes distance easily, (66B, 11B, 22K, Windsault (6B+K), or just a quick dash in) it's maintaining that distance and pressure that requires some work. Her step and 8WR moves are decent enough to handle this.

Bubbles said:
every character can beat a move from prep after blocking the entrance. most raphs will go SEA or VE if they are stepped in prep does talim have any counters to these?
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Yeah. That's what I meant about her 33A. Her step-33A will beat every possible followup from prep on block including VE and SEA/SEB. WC B:B will beat everything except VE A, but leads to over 70 dmg or wakeup games otherwise.

Bubbles said:
raph can wreak havoc with 44B in this match up and talim doesnt have much to stop it
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Talim's AS (Windsault) A+B, 6A+B, even 66B can all beat Raph's 44B on reaction, (unless of course she's already whiffed something.) Raph can't abuse this move because of that. It might work every now and then but she can catch it without too much anticipation.

Bubbles said:
ranged punishers dont mean much, raph at long range will be poking and not using his unsafe ish..........
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I don't remember saying anything about ranged punishers, but as I said before, every character has some way of spacing Talim with pokes and such to a certain degree. Raph does this better than some others, but still, she has 22K to gain ground, step and TJ in one move as well as 11B transition into AS which covers about the length of the screen.

Raph does punish better, however.

Don't get me wrong though, I'm not gullible or biased enough to believe this match is in Talim's favor, but it's just hard to see it being 7:3. Well, without bringing player tactics and stuff into this I mean.
 
raph has no problems with step up close (2A, WS A, VE A,22K)

so close range step punishers arent that much of a factor

44B makes talim whiff easy................

thats a risk with 3AA believe me you dont want to be hit by VE A

VE B is faster then VE A
 
bubbles:

once again my question is... NOT about 22B but more about asta vs rock

what is ASTA doing differently against raph that Rock isn't.

again the match up is 4:6 vs 6:4....

if it's something like 5.5:4.5 vs 5:5.... maybe i won't bother questioning but since the difference is HUGE I'm curious for the explanation.... also knowing the very fact there's hardly any rock players... and i won't even go on mentioning about 'good' rock players.

-LAU
 
asta has long range options that beat raphs pokes rock doesnt...........

simple as that

its hard for rock to retaliate

i have talked to another rock player

he says the only thing rock has is raph cant duck PT (hes only character who cant)
 
There's no risk with step-33A. 33A will beat VE A/VE K, and it TCs under VE B and VE throw. The only potential risk is if Raph does nothing out of prep and just blocks. But I don't want to go down that road since that'll involve too much player strategy.

WC B:B/WC K are the ones that don't beat VE A (and your right, VE B hits as well). Sorry if it confused you.

44B is good. I agree with that. All I was saying was that unless we're assuming Raph successfully baits a short ranged retaliation from Talim every time, she has quite a few moves that'll catch him out of 44B that can be done on reaction. She has tools to deal with it.

Talim doesn't have to step and/or use WC. I merely brought that up because it's where Talim gets her biggest damage from punishing since her block punishing ability is pretty low. I forgot to mention that Raph's 44A{B} transition into Prep forces crouch on guard so Talim's 33A won't work there.

However, WC is a good tool to have here because it allows her to side step even from being forced into FC. So even though she's in crouch she can counter 90% of Prep options. This is something not a lot of characters can do. And yeah, I know that step doesn't mean automatic win vs. Raph. If Talim does step him though, she has some good options for damage/RO/wakeup.
 
Why is the Raph/Sets matchup in Setsuka's favour? I've fought a number of good Setsukas, and fight one extremely often. Although Setsuka has many good ranged moves, the bulk of her core strategy is rather short ranged, leaving her open to back step and 44B. Good spacing should keep you out of range of her lows and throws.

But then I'm an online player so take what I say with whatever skepticism and dismissiveness you usually give online.
 
setsu owns raph

spacing only works for so long

once she gets close she can punish the crap out of him

236B is unsafe vs her
 
Anyone care to explain the Yoda matchup? From my experience, I'd have to say this is one of the most pitifully one-sided matchups in the game. What does Raph have against Yoda? 11B him to death by CF?
 
Can we get a real number on the Algol match up, even if it's an 8-2 or 9-1. I don't think it's that bad personally.
 
is this thread back for re-open back for discussion?

or are we just gonna have to agree on everything that bubbles wrote simply because he refuse to listen to others....

i can still go on with rock vs raph.... but I'm not sure if that' allowed anymore.

-LAU
 
anyways...

back to before.

bubbles mentioned

asta's long range > raph therefore 6:4

i kinda wanna know exactly which long range moves your'e talking about

because rock's moves might be a tad shorter range but it's not exactly 'THAT' much shorter where the results ends up to be 4:6 for rock instead...

in the end asta only really have like the following longer (or faster) range

A+B (longer)
22B (faster I THINK)
66AB (longer)
A<B about the same range as rock's 66AB but it's easier to use and faster.
and yep.. i'm kinda getting stuck on thinking what else is longer range... that matters... and rock can't replace

i do agree the moves i listed above MIGHT make a difference...but you're talking about raph getting his ass kicked because of the above... vs... rock might have a similar version of it with slightly smaller range and now because of the 4 moves raph is kicking ass instead?

I think the truth is... most players haven't even fought a good rock. Just because you fought rock doesn't make the rock a good rock. (this sounds kinda funny)

anyways... that's my 2c...

if you ask me...

it's either.. asta vs raph is 6:4 then rock vs raph is 5:5 or... asta vs raph is 5:5 and rock vs raph is 4:6... I can understand that... but saying 6:4 and 4:6 without giving any real solid strat and knowing most players haven't fought rock and most of the rock is just theory rock which doesn't exactly work out well.... to me is just not convincing enough.

-LAU
 
Hudathan said:
Can we get a real number on the Algol match up, even if it's an 8-2 or 9-1. I don't think it's that bad personally.
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4-6. it would be even if not for the damage differences but algol does too much more damage to make this 5-5
 
LAU said:
anyways...

back to before.

bubbles mentioned

asta's long range > raph therefore 6:4

i kinda wanna know exactly which long range moves your'e talking about

because rock's moves might be a tad shorter range but it's not exactly 'THAT' much shorter where the results ends up to be 4:6 for rock instead...

in the end asta only really have like the following longer (or faster) range

A+B (longer)
22B (faster I THINK)
66AB (longer)
A<B about the same range as rock's 66AB but it's easier to use and faster.
and yep.. i'm kinda getting stuck on thinking what else is longer range... that matters... and rock can't replace

i do agree the moves i listed above MIGHT make a difference...but you're talking about raph getting his ass kicked because of the above... vs... rock might have a similar version of it with slightly smaller range and now because of the 4 moves raph is kicking ass instead?

I think the truth is... most players haven't even fought a good rock. Just because you fought rock doesn't make the rock a good rock. (this sounds kinda funny)

anyways... that's my 2c...

if you ask me...

it's either.. asta vs raph is 6:4 then rock vs raph is 5:5 or... asta vs raph is 5:5 and rock vs raph is 4:6... I can understand that... but saying 6:4 and 4:6 without giving any real solid strat and knowing most players haven't fought rock and most of the rock is just theory rock which doesn't exactly work out well.... to me is just not convincing enough.

-LAU
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lau asta has a tech step that takes %50 that already means there is a problem for raph.............

i have talked to another rock

he thinks raph wins

the only advantage rock has is raph cant duck PT
 
Bubbles said:
lau asta has a tech step that takes %50 that already means there is a problem for raph.............

i have talked to another rock

he thinks raph wins

the only advantage rock has is raph cant duck PT
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I'm sure the other rock knows rock better than i do

so i'll leave this alone.

-LAU

PS: theoretically.
 
LAU: Asta's 44A and 3B are also superior than Rock's haha. Asta also has 4A.

I think the fact that Rock has better step is somewhat offset by the fact Asta can whiff punish for more damage.

I have a question though ... "asta has a tech step that takes %50 that already means there is a problem for raph" ... wtf does this mean ? if you're refering to 22B4 ... it only does 95 damage with the JF throw ... more if there is a wall splat.
 
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