Raphael : Patch Changes and Discussion

I haven't tried it on a human yet but I have been messing around with this......

4B, Prep BBB, jump over, BT mixup.

Been seeing what's available. The stun from the Prep BBB is very lame as there's practically nothing you can follow up with that seems worthwhile except maybe CE. BUT the stun from that Prep BBB makes the opponent drop right in front of you and you can EASILY jump over them before they're completely prone if they don't tech to their back. If they ukemi to their back, Raph will end up in front of them instead. If they tech in place, they'll get up facing Raph but Raph will have the momentum. Other than those two tech, when they get up, they're in BT as well.

BT 2K catches all techs, if they lay on the ground, and roll in any direction. It is blockable however if they tech and block low. But it's also -2 on hit, so you should be able to keep the pressure going. It also will connect before any bt or wr attack after they tech if they try to attack so all they can really do is tech and block low. On block BT 2k is -14 unfortunately.

BT B+K causes stun on clean hit but the stun is easily shakeable. However, I'm thinking throw as soon as it hits. If they tech off of the Prep BBB, Raph's BT B+K will catch anyone who does anything but block. If they try to attack the BT B+K will hit them for a CH and some decent damage. BT B+K is -9 on block though. So you'll lose the advantage if they guess right and block it. Also, obviously BT B+K doesn't hit grounded, so if they stay down, they can wait and punish.

BT A+G/B+G. This is kinda weird. If they get up and tech to their left, the throw whiffs completely. No matter which way they tech, if they duck immediately after the tech, the throw misses. If they tech forward (away from the jumping Raph) and do anything but duck (this includes guarding), they get grabbed for either a back throw or side throw. If they ukemi to their right, they get the same deal. If they ukemi in place, they can hit you with a WR attack as they'll be facing your back and the wr attack will conncect.

BT 2B catches does not catch rolls to the opponents right. It does catch every other roll and hits grounded.
BT 2A..... for some reason I can't block the BT 2A, when I tech to the right. Not sure if it's just a hand error or what.
 
good findings. I don't think BT mixups are as strong as what the mixups he has from the front though.
 
I remember Utoh saying "SE will be a very strong stance!" and the producer saying "we have improved the strength of raph's verticals".

Maybe I imagined that
 
coroso4 said:
Okay, to be fair that was a larger custom Z.W.E.I., but I just tested it and it doesn't even work on astaroth... So I have no clue how it happened =(
Click to expand...

A guy said he could connect at tip range. Maybe it was that?
_______

Thanks for the detailed info on BT mix up after the Prep BBB stun, Golden Dragon. If it helps to distract the opponents so you can get throws more easily, it may be viable, though I tend to prefer guaranteed damage or a usual mix up.
_______

Thanks to who said why Prep BBB doesn't stun after CH 22K. I agree: it must be because they have the same stun animation. This was really bugging me.
 
So, after playing almost 100 battles vs the Very Hard AI, to fill out the new Raph, here are some of the adjustments I made and impressions I had:

* Using CE more. The addition is mostly as follow up to 22_88B. But using it after SE A ain't bad, either.

* Using 33k(BE) more. It is currently the propper punishment to unleash when you have 0,5 bar, especially after stepping.

* Using 66B (or rather 2236B_8896B) more, after stepping, now that 22B sux without meter, unless in very specific circumstances. If you wanna practice this, face Aeon's Very Hard AI: it spams that flight dive, which is just the thing you're supposed to punish with 2236B. Btw, I haven't increased this use in general as much as I intend to. Still a work in progress.

Overall, Raph needs to use more variety, now. The Patch has certainly made Raph mirror matches better... more elegant. Whether or not it has made him more balanced against the other characters is a more complex matter.

Using Raphael became a lot harder. You gotta keep a closer look at your meter. Pre-patch, most of the meter usage was about 6Bb(BE) or PrepBb(BE) to finish long combos. So, you could start the combo, take a look at your meter and the opponent's health and than decide whether or not to use the BE.

Now, you gotta make the meter-related decisions before starting the punishment, especially the after step punishment. That's because the meter usage is no longer at the end of a long combo, but quite at the beginning. It's also because the viable meter usage depends a lot on how much meter you have. So:

Little punish-after-step guide (by 0,5 I mean meter to perform a BE):

0 meter far: 66(B) A+B 56dmg

0 meter near (especially when stepping to Raph's right, 22 for P1): 22B A+BA 63dmg (a slight buff)

0,5 meter far: 66(B) A+B 56dmg (yeah, you just can't BE :( )

0,5 meter near: 33k(BE) 2B 75 to 84dmg (not sure about the 75... the 84 is with Clean Hit)

1 meter far or near: 22_88B (CE) 91 dmg (this one is cool, 'cause the angle and distance don't matter)

1,5 meter far: 22_88B (CE) 91 dmg (can't BE)

1,5 meter near: 33k(BE) (CE) 114 dmg (I see a lot of people questioning this use, but I don't see anything wrong with it)
_____

A few Set Ups:

As you probably know, some of the frame data has changed. SE A is now a little negative, so, instead of good old 6Bb(BE) excellent mix up, we need some more technical stuff. I'm finding 22B A+BA a very good option. That works when your opponent is likely to responde with a quick vertical or stab. You're usually close enough and at a good angle stepping to Raph's right... so you can land the A+BA for some nice meterless and 'walless' dmg.

The Guard Meter Damage has been nerfed for 6Bb(BE) and Prep Bb(BE), but the frames have become better (less negative). I'm not sure how fast an attack must be to prevent you from stepping after having this BE blocked. But I know I'm liking to step to Raph's right and going to town with the same combo described above, in the SE A set up.

Though somewhat less efficient than the old SE A set up for 6Bb(BE), you can still perform this BEs from SE B and get them CH and work well... quite often, but not as often as in the old SE A.
_____

The New Stuns

I'm excited to use the CE after the new stuns. The Prep BBB stun would almost exclusively ("only") be viably followed by CE if the new stun is the first hit, which is quite rare. The Prep K on CH followed by the CE would be quite nice and would work reliably on tip (no need to risk whiffing the second kick of the BE version, when the first is blocked or NHs at tip). I still haven't conditioned myself to perform these things, though. I'm on my way.

What about the meterless follow ups? I think the new B stun can only be safely followed by 2B (or worse). A+BA may work if the guy is totally trapped against a wall and in a good angle, which is very, very rare and even hard to replicate in training. 66A+B may be ukemied to one side, but at least the AI often doesn't. So, I suggest you condition yourself to perform the higher damage, ukemiable version and then adapt to 2B (easy to adapt to) if you see your opponent can ukemi propperly.

The new K stun can be followed by 65A+BA, but any ukemi will at least partially avoid it. You can also go for 66A+B, similarly to the case above. 2B is the easy answer. Again I suggest you start with the high damage ukemiable versions, and adapt to your enemy's reactions. And I'm almost sure 11K combos without allowing ukemi, and making up for a good oki (this may be our best option). If the guy is hit at the side or back by the new K stun (rare), you can follow up with 11BB, 'cause he won't crumple towards you and end up too close to 1BB. I don't think he can ukemi this one

A Little More on 22B

From affar, 22B may be followed by 11BB. This is more reliable than 66A+B or 1B. If you're near, 11BB is a no go. You gotta figure if you may A+BA, the best option. 66A+B seems to the the most reliable, but may miss where 1B would hit. Each covers one side and it seems 66A+B covers the front better than 1B.

As you can see, using 22B without CE has become really hard and not very rewarding. It's just 43/44 dmg, except when you manage to A+BA. So, I suggest you only use this move when you can CE or when you have an specific set up to make A+BA fit, like the SE A set up I mentioned. So: no more spamming this thing, willy nilly.

And a little something extra about the SE A set up: some characters (I experienced Nightmare) will tend to use attacks that make them turn to their side, so when the 22B hits him, he won't crumple as expected, making your A+BA miss. In this case, use 66A+B against him (for only 44 dmg :( ). Or, try to shake things up with 2236B. I'm on my way to do this. I hope it's fast enough.
 
WhHT said:
I remember Utoh saying "SE will be a very strong stance!" and the producer saying "we have improved the strength of raph's verticals".
Click to expand...
QFT
I wish we were given the secret behind raph's incredible potential before the nerf.

Fendante said:
It can stay as 0 on hit and Prep K on CH should cause KND and possible RO rather than stun.
Click to expand...
I feel prep k needs to be sped up (and become SC4 prep a). In Sc4 people had to at least take the 8 dmg or guard vs the prep mixup/VE throw /SG damage.
Now how do we break, or even force, a good defence? Guard damage was nerfed , TC or crouching is still just as effective vs prep k and SE was already risky pre patch. Play against asta and see how long prep works. And its not just limited to asta.
 
prep k being more viable would really be a good choice for any change planned for raph. I mean, lots of problems are solved with just that change I think... and it doesn't sound like it'd unbalance anything to me. Or maybe I'm just a baby XD
 
Cypher0120 said:
Making Prep K BE be comboable would make me a happy Raph mainer. Though, that's probably asking for too much.
Click to expand...

it already does 70 damage, or wallsplat for 120ish (no meter) or ringout. Its pretty good on the "rewards" bit
 
I think Prep K is fine. If you start Prep by Prep B(B) or Prep A(B) you are guaranteed to land Prep K against anything the opponent tries to throw at you. So, if your opponent is trying to be aggressive against your Prep, especially with TCs, Prep K is the way to go.

Also if you land it in a counter hit, I recommend 11K. It hits them on the ground or if they ukemi, but they can't block it. It's guaranteed. And if you have the meter, the CE works pretty well for 90 damage. I started to use it and it's cool.

The thing about Prep is that you can dominate if you start it on hit, but if the opponent (and/or his character) is good against it, starting Prep on block becomes a struggle to survive, mostly with Prep 4. And remember you can still aGI with Prep4 while BT, for some Fuk Yeah momments. I think it's fair. Though SE got nerfed, Prep got buffed in the Overall (stronger CH's, weaker NHs). 90 damage from Prep K (CE) is really sweet.

Something I thought wouldn't be viable, but is not as bad as it seems at first is 4(B)BBB(CE). 90dmg, instead of the 68 of the BE version. Might work well for a round winner or you're kinda desperate to spend meter (about to loose a second round).
 
On hit
66(B) Stun:
A+B = combo​
3(B) +15:
BB = combo​
AB = combo​
K = i6​
A+B = i18​
4(B) +13:
BB = combo​
AB = i2​
K = i8​
A+B = i20​
44aB +11:
BB = i1​
AB = i4​
K = i10​
A+B = i22​
6B(B) +11:
(no prep) B = between i3-i10​
CH (no prep) B = combo​
(no prep) BE = i13​
CH (no prep) BE = combo​
BB = i1​
AB = i4​
K = i10​
A+B = i22​
Prep~B(B)+11:
(no prep) B = between i3-i10​
CH (no prep) B = combo​
(no prep) BE = i13​
CH (no prep) BE= combo​
BB = i1​
AB = i4​
K = i10​
A+B = i22​
6A(B) and Prep~A(B) + 10:
BB = i2​
AB = i5​
K = i11​
A+B = i23​

Assuming the opponent is aware of the frames prep gives I don't see how prep K can be safely applied. In most of these situations, we are at a considerable advantage, and with no throw/low mixup in prep, it is better to just block rather than attempting to attack back (SE is supposed to come into play here I guess). Prep K is even more unsafe and once the opponent is blocking vs prep, the viability of prep K dies due to its speed. That being said, it catches well after 66(B) on block if they normaly have a TC move that shuts down prep (hilde 2A+B asta 66K etc).
 
Mr.Hai said:
4(B) +13:
AB = combo​
​
Click to expand...
Close but this does not combo. I know I say it, but muscle memory from SC4 still kicks in sometimes.
​
6B(B) +11:
(no prep) B = between i3-i10​
CH (no prep) B = combo​
(no prep) BE = i13​
Click to expand...
Perhaps you can test known aGIs against the 3rd hit of 6BBB to see how many frames it is. I believe it is steppable so its at least 5 frames. B+K does not work and its 10 frames, so its at most 9 frames.
​
​
 
WuHT said:
Close but this does not combo. I know I say it, but muscle memory from SC4 still kicks in sometimes.
Click to expand...
Hmm, to be honest I never have tried to use AB over BB after 4(B), and the frame data would suggest it isn't a combo as well (facepalm).

Perhaps you can test known aGIs against the 3rd hit of 6BBB to see how many frames it is. I believe it is steppable so its at least 5 frames. B+K does not work and its 10 frames, so its at most 9 frames.
Click to expand...
Tested vs cervy aGI and raph AE; good point on the step.
 
well after swearing off raph like the most of you i decided to give him a go for a few hrs today. i gotta say i overreacted to the nerfs. 33k Be serves the same exact function of 22b while being faster and forgoing the hit confirm for more dmg off of clean hit. also the only way to counter the 2nd hit is by JG which makes the move real solid and the +8 gives you a frame trap for 6bb to counter step.another thing to remember is that 33kBE has the exact same range as 22b as well, dont sleep on this move

the stun on 6bbb is great off of 4b giving you a choice to add 20 extra dmg per meter you are willing to spend. getting 88 dmg off of a TC is pretty solid IMO. it also gives you a slight 50/50 on hit between 66A+B and A+BA for around 60 avg for no meter.

Prep K into CE is awesome, especially after you trained your opp to use moves that tech step.

As for SE, its still just as gd as ever. train your opp to block low by spamming se k and they open up to se b very consistently. SE A into CE is also sexy as well and it being -6 means you can still attack with an evasive move or auto gi.

so im sure most of you think im crazy cuz i keep mentioning CE combos, but i think its pretty viable now. think about how often have you had meter just burning a hole in your gauge, i almost always have a quarter no matter what. raph dosnt use meter outside of combos and he earns is pretty easily. now he can abuse it to do prepatch dmg, while a gd amount of the cast dosnt have that option anymore. over all i think things look gd for raph
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back