Raphael : Patch Changes and Discussion

[piggy]

Even the stun on Prep BBB on CH and the damage buff to 33KB BE?

Yup, none of that was necessary, or helpful (though, with the crippling blow of the patch, that at least gives Raph something to do). Get rid of those stupid "buffs" and get back to where he can actually play and almost compete.

Keeping that stuff would be cute, but I would trade it all back in half a heartbeat.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Fair enough then.

 

[piggy]

snip

See how much shorter my list is ;-)

 

[Mr.Hai]

I doubt we will ever get the full 22B combo back. Look at the fact that they took it away while leaving some characters, who were in far better shape than Raph, untouched. I am curious at the nerf to SE though.
Maybe 22B, 3(B)BB/AB as a replacement?

 

[Mr.Hai]

I was thinking only the 3(B)BB/AB part being given, like landing 3(B) from neutral. The BE version works due to the stun carrying over I assume. Either way, a non-BE able replacement that does 60-70 ish damage would be a reasonable replacement, especially since it seems the crumple issue will not be corrected.

As much as 22B was great, my entire gameplay was warped around it; it was the kind of braindead BnB that I hate to fight against. Now without 22B and with the stuns (except the prep~K stun which gained a whole 5 damage extra, lost 10 on NH, and is less safe), 6Bb(BE), 33k(BE), A+BA, 2B, 11BB, and arguably CE have more use. Despite the fact bringing it back would make Raph more viable, I feel it is analogous to the rout taken where lacking characters are buffed by simply adding more damage, as opposed to fixing the flaws in their gameplan that keep then less than... stunning.
No comment on the SE nerf...

 

[WuHT]

prepK going from 28 to 18 damage (and +4 on hit to 0 on hit) means as a whiff punisher after prep4 it took a huge nerf (lost 1/3 the damage, lost 4 frames) if you did not have meter.

The problem is more obvious in that it's easier for raph to blow meter due to CE combing after the new prepBBB stun for example.

 

[Solid_Altair]

Saying I've seen a lot of people saying Raphael has become non-competitive is an understatement. Well, in the way I see it, people are over-rating the importance of tiers, as if there is an abyss between characters.

I have dominated some good players and have been dominated by some great players. It never seemed to me that it was a matter of tiers. So, even if there is such a thing as a respectable tier list, it doesn't seem to make that much of a difference.

Were you guys ever dominated (lost consistently) by someone who didn't seem to be clearly better than you?

The last guy who steamrolled me even did so with a bunch of characters. He has better reactions to strings and has better movement. It's not supernatural and it's not because Raph supposedly sucks.

I'm not saying we should simply assume the current version is perfectly balanced. I'm just saying there seems to be no such thing as huge gap between characters.

 

[Solid_Altair]

I want Raph to buffed not only for my own benefit, but also for other fans. Very few people play him these days but if we could convince those developers to bump up Raph's tier ranking, more people will try Raph and hopefully my favorite character will be represented more in tournaments. The developers have no right to bar any character from major competition and they have no right to keep watering down a movelist to make life harder for devoted fans. If all else fails, Im writing a formal letter to Project Soul specifically about Raphael.

The thing is, they do have the right do it. Not that I think they intend to make a character non-viable.

About watering down move lists, that happens accross the board, not just to Raph. And that is also a good thing. It makes the characters more balanced and the moves less redundant. It is obviously unpopular, as you can see so many guys claiming SCII was the best.

So, think about it: if the Devs know these cuts and nerfs to moves are popular, why do they insist in doing them? It's because they know it's the right thing to do for the sake of balance, elegance and effective variety. Also in terms of characters differentiation, it's important to add things some characters can't do, not just add new things they can do. For instance, Nighty became much unsafer in SCV... in a way, he can't be safe, now.
______

Your example on the Kilik match up was a good one, though it refered to only one specific match up, not actual tiers. But it is from SC4. Do you have some from SC5, which is supposedly a more balanced game?

 

[Solid_Altair]

All the talk of SCII being the best has some merit. The characters had more options back then...

That's the point. The characters aren't supposed to have those many options. Not being able to do stuff is part of the path towards sophistication. It doesn't apply only to Soul Calibur, not even only to Fight Games. Think about shooters. In Battlefield 3, you can't hit a far away target if you're using a pistol. A lot of the improvements in games are about adding limitations. In old shooters the guns had pretty much infinite range and you carry a freaking huge arsenal with ya. It's the same thing with Soul Calibur. The devs keep adding limitations to make the games more interesting.

It's counter-intuitive as hell, but it works. In the end, you end up with more actual variety in the competitive fights.
_______

I started to learn ZWEI. Dude, what freaking hard alien character. Seriously! Maybe I shoulda picked Ezio.

Well, while in some aspects I think: "Wooow! He does this so much better than Raph!", in others I think: "Plz! Give me Raph back!".

His overall punishment, range and speed suck in comparison to Raph. But his pressure, damage and horizontals are better. Their style are pretty much opposite to one another. Raph is about punishing and following up with stance pressure... and zoning, too. ZWEI is about pressuring in extremely varied and creative ways and following up with insane damage.

Since both characters are suposedly low tier, learning ZWEI probably won't give much credit to speak about Raph's place in the tiers, though :(

 

[Leonyx]

I started to learn ZWEI. Dude, what freaking hard alien character. Seriously! Maybe I shoulda picked Ezio.

Well, while in some aspects I think: "Wooow! He does this so much better than Raph!", in others I think: "Plz! Give me Raph back!".

His overall punishment, range and speed suck in comparison to Raph. But his pressure, damage and horizontals are better. Their style are pretty much opposite to one another. Raph is about punishing and following up with stance pressure... and zoning, too. ZWEI is about pressuring in extremely varied and creative ways and following up with insane damage.

Since both characters are suposedly low tier, learning ZWEI probably won't give much credit to speak about Raph's place in the tiers, though :(

ZWEI's really fun! I play him too. I guess he's my secondary. Those Ein moves are bread and butter for him.

 

[Mr.Hai]

So, think about it: if the Devs know these cuts and nerfs to moves are popular, why do they insist in doing them? It's because they know it's the right thing to do for the sake of balance, elegance and effective variety.

Well said, but in the end, we know Raph has historically lacked overall (although SC2 cancels were pretty boss). And if Viola has shown anything, it is that the developpers are not beyond throwing extra damage on moves to improve a character.
Is it possible that we, as a SA, could outline the major issues while trying to follow the devs cues (no 22B 80 dmg NH combos, CH fishing for dmg, bad step kill)? This could at least call to attention to some potential/current issues, which if already known/intentional, would be ignored, and if not, could be adjusted. This version Raph has a nicely balanced moveset, where we use a variety of moves, yet missing/lacking options can kill that variety (see Prep).

The problem is more obvious in that it's easier for raph to blow meter due to CE combing after the new prepBBB stun for example.

On that note, how is everyone using the CE/BEs with respect to the new stuns? Consider that GI (60 meter) does 70 (60 dmg if you play it safe) dmg and refunds 30 meter, and 6Bb(BE) adds 30 dmg for 60 meter.
I have only been (as a hitconfirm) using the CE as a follow up to 22B and CH Prep~K, but even there the damage to meter ratio is less than 6Bb(BE) (However this is decent compared to using a CE after the new B stuns, which 15 - 18 extra dmg for 120 meter vs meterless options).
Without the need to BE off SEB and 4B anymore, we effectivly have more meter to burn. I tend to stick with 6Bb(BE) and GI usage unless it wins the round, am I placing to much priority on meter preservation?

 

[RT0wn]

On that note, how is everyone using the CE/BEs with respect to the new stuns? Consider that GI (60 meter) does 70 (60 dmg if you play it safe) dmg and refunds 30 meter, and 6Bb(BE) adds 30 dmg for 60 meter.
I have only been (as a hitconfirm) using the CE as a follow up to 22B and CH Prep~K, but even there the damage to meter ratio is less than 6Bb(BE) (However this is decent compared to using a CE after the new B stuns, which 15 - 18 extra dmg for 120 meter vs meterless options).
Without the need to BE off SEB and 4B anymore, we effectivly have more meter to burn. I tend to stick with 6Bb(BE) and GI usage unless it wins the round, am I placing to much priority on meter preservation?

This sounds like how I play. I like conserving meter. I only use CE when it's going to net me a round. BEs are fine for damage, and I love to use GIs. But lately, timely backsteps + 236B has been my main source of damage, so comboing isn't something that happens often.

 

[WuHT]

I have problems thinking of using 4(B) after aGI because i'm afriad they're in the sour-spot where they bounce too far for prep BBB to connect

 

[RT0wn]

things about how we should feel

You are very up and down about Raphael. So are a few other people. I will say only this. Omega himself said that frame data is not important. If you want to win, play with mindgames. We cannot take things like numbers so seriously. The negativity in some of the SA forums (here and ZWEI for two examples) is beyond unacceptable.

I will call piggy out specifically for his negativity. I don't care about his experience. There is no reason to be so blatantly unhelpful and negative. There is such a thing as a Debbie Downer. Those people can fuck themselves.

Now to be on-topic, and give some useful dialogue for everyone's benefit:

Raph is about punishing and following up with stance pressure... and zoning, too.(

Stance pressure is not something I use with Raphael. I play a lot of Raphael mirrors with a friend of mine. We are pretty evenly matched, except for our preferred playstyles. He is a pressure guy, I am a zoner. I usually win, and it is because he fails his pressure game in the later rounds of our matches. This applies to SC4 Raph as well. It is too easily interrupted to be "pressure". I use his stances for zoning. Tip 3(B) into Prep 4. Point blank prep seems wasteful. Unless of course the definition of pressure is different in the connotation above. Mind elaborating? This is a big topic I wish to discuss about Raphael's style.

 

[Solid_Altair]

Stance pressure is not something I use with Raphael. I play a lot of Raphael mirrors with a friend of mine. We are pretty evenly matched, except for our preferred playstyles. He is a pressure guy, I am a zoner. I usually win, and it is because he fails his pressure game in the later rounds of our matches. This applies to SC4 Raph as well. It is too easily interrupted to be "pressure". I use his stances for zoning. Tip 3(B) into Prep 4. Point blank prep seems wasteful. Unless of course the definition of pressure is different in the connotation above. Mind elaborating? This is a big topic I wish to discuss about Raphael's style.

By Pressure I meant entering Prep at +10 frames, force them into defense (they must fear your Prep K, if they know Raph's stances) and when they actually turtle, you mix them up with SE. So, by Pressure I meant frame advantage and mix up, using the stances.

And Raph can punish very well. This is probably his main compensation for being so linear (you don't need to track when the guy can't move). Play as ZWEI and you'll know what I mean. ZWEI's punishment is good on i16 close range if he can BE and on very slow very long range if he can CE. Otherwise, his punishment sucks. Raph, however, can punish pretty much anything, for some good damage, or even if it's just 6B(B), he has Prep at +10.

Raph's zoning is very good. He can poke people's block a tip and follow up with 44B very easily, in case they try to return fire immediatly. ZWEI's only back step has kiss range and can hardly be actually used as a back step.
________

In a slight change of topic... A fellow Brazilian, who steamrolled me the other day told Raph's 2A is very good. I didn't understand, but before I asked him, I played as ZWEI and saw that his 2A pushes back on hit, so you can't follow up with a throw. So, yeah... Raph's 2A is marvelous!

 

[Leonyx]

His 2A really is a beastly tool. During my training sessions (I've been fighting the AI, as suggested), often when my opponent is close up and I don't have frame advantage I throw out this move. It gives Raph a bunch of advantage on hit and gives him a poking mixup. You can probably get a pretty good mixup out of it since it's +8, but I'm not that creative. I either go for another 2A or 6B(B). Now that I think about it though, you could grab after it and catch steppers. What options would we have to get duckers?

 

[Mr.Hai]

What options would we have to get duckers?

If you want to hit mid, wrB for speed and fc3B if you want damage (or SC4 nostalgia).

Frame data is not as important. If you want to win, play with mindgames. We cannot take things like numbers so seriously (lolmath).

This is an interesting point. From what I have seen, SCV is faster, due to speed and damage, so taking risks/using unsafe moves is far more effective than before, NM, Cervy (and many more) all have unsafe stuff, but the reward is so great for landing them that the risk is justified.
However, when we are playing a poking/punishing game we need to maximize the damage we can get, and Raph can't really win by landing a 2 combos (anymore). In this case, numbers are not to be overlooked.

entering Prep at +10 frames, force them into defense (they must fear your Prep K, if they know Raph's stances) and when they actually turtle, you mix them up with SE. So, by Pressure I meant frame advantage and mix up, using the stances.

This, unfortunately, was the issue last game; pressuring the opponent to force a reaction and score CH's was never very effective, which is strange considering the CH properties, re-entry moves, and evades that Prep has.

I have problems thinking of using 4(B) after a GI because i'm afriad they're in the sour-spot where they bounce too far for prep BBB to connect.

I've been using GI during strings mostly, where the opponent is always left in the same position. For example GI during Natsu 66b(BE) gives 4~BBB, A+BA, without the need to reposition. Although I'm not sure how this would translate to single moves.

 

[JustinAkatsuki]

I say raph needs buffed enough said. I honestly do not get why project soul would leave this char untouched for so long (im guessing since sc2?) in terms of his weaknesses and strengths :/

 

[Leonyx]

If you want to hit mid, wrB for speed and fc3B if you want damage (or SC4 nostalgia).

Good point. I think I'd go with the FC3B since I'm really going for damage and if I'm going to get stepped it'll happen either way. How many frames is a Quick Step?

 

[Solid_Altair]

This, unfortunatly, was the issue last game; pressuring the opponent to force a reaction and score CH's was never very effective, which is strange considering the CH properties, re-entry moves, and evades that Prep has.

Care to elaborate? I mean: what do you think strange or improper with Prep? I've been outclassed playing as Raph, but the problem was not in the stances. I could use them well. As I say (quite often), we just need to use Prep K with +10. After the guy starts to block SE works well.

Good point. I think I'd go with the FC3B since I'm really going for damage and if I'm going to get stepped it'll happen either way. How many frames is a Quick Step?

If you really think they're gonna crouch, you may gamble with 236B. Unfortunatly, you can't go with 3(B)A(B) from FC. I like to use 3(B)A(B) after 11K, when my opponents are already fearing my throws.

As for the frames required for quick stepping, well, it seems you need 5 frames to evade and 7 frames to start a 22_88 move. I could be wrong, though.