Raphael Wishlist 2.0

WuHT said:
Raph in all honestly is pretty mediocre when it comes to whiff punishing in terms of damage, but he's pretty reliable because he'll rarely be out-of-range to punish.
I never understood why people thought raph was a whiff punish type character. I can understand that it's one of the few ways he can do damage, but I dont' see him excelling in that area.
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It's the only way that I know how to do damage in the Alpha Pat matchup. That's if you count "miss JF -> lolpunish" as whiff punishment or not.
 
Personally, I think they need to give his :2::2::B: stun a longer duration. Punishing a whiffed vertical with :2::2::B: then leading into :3::(B):. It would give him more options.

His :6::B+K: should TC in my opinion. Needs less start-up frames so it can be used to punish high horizontals. I know :4::B: is adequate aside from the push back but...if you catch with the needle then do :4::B:~:B::bA+B+K: just as one example.

I think they need to give him a low stun. But I might be asking for too much.
 
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22B into 3B actually combo pre-patch (baring alignment problems).

In regards to TC, 6B+K is like A+BA in that Raph actually slightly moves back before he attacks, so it is one of his few moves where he doesnt' stick out his arm far out so it is useful in those situations where you dont want to get CH.

I have different thoughts on what 6B+K should have been
 
Just played as Raph for the first time since the patch (well, right after the patch) - 22B was so good, just wanted to put that out there. It is still good, but it used to be really good.

People are really, really, bad at this game, by the way.
 
Mandritti said:
I deserve to win money off all your opponents.
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Unfortunately, being better than 95% of the people who play this game just isn't enough, cause there always seem to be 3 assholes at a tournament better than me (though I haven't really played in a tournament in a long time) - you need to find random people and just challenge them for money!

You can do it!
 
Hey fencers!!!

I don't know why, but out of the blue, Raph's Prep KBE reminded me of Nighty's old 236KK. Therefore, I thought Raph's Prep KBE would be better if it was similar to 236KK, with the first hit partially launching them into the air and the second hit spinning them away. Just remove Prep K stuns and make it plus on hit (I don't fancy the 0 on NH) with partial launch so that the entire BE is delayable. Prep K alone would have RO potential. Now it would awesome if Prep K would track both sides like 236KK as well but...yeah.
 
I think now the only thing I would really like now is if the final hit of 6BB BE was a JF of some sort so that I can decide when and where to use it (it should all combo still though) so I don't get screwed for using 6BB BE at the wrong time (or times where I think it should hit but doesn't since the game is so inconsistent). That's about it for now. Maybe make 4A+B or B+K work on frame 1 so they can be used as advertised.
 
Can you specify the trouble with 6BB BE? I thought it was NCC? Frame 1 is mouth-watering so frame 3 would be enough for me lol, but frame 10 is just an insult. Actually I want all of his GI moves to have early frame windows, not just those two. A fencer should have more potential to guard impact moves and counter along with his punish and burst of attacks.
 
The last hit gets you fucked if you don't do it at the right time. It also takes a long time to come out giving the opp days to prepare. It's disheartening to know Raph's doom is only a few quick stabs away once they can block it.
 
B+K's window starts pretty late but it's still a nice option against slower verticals like Pat 66B or Mitsu 4B.
 
You know, I don't think Raph has a single completely reliable tech trap outside of 22B -> 33A (obviously garbage anyway). Maybe they could address that since he's all about conditioning anyway.

I also miss having a decent low poke from FC. The old FC 3B was fine, I wonder why they got rid of it...
 
Freaky said:
You know, I don't think Raph has a single completely reliable tech trap outside of 22B -> 33A (obviously garbage anyway). Maybe they could address that since he's all about conditioning anyway.

I also miss having a decent low poke from FC. The old FC 3B was fine, I wonder why they got rid of it...
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They moved Advance Slicer from wrB to FC3B. They replaced wrB with his old SC2 wrB which is awesome imo (i13 wr move combined with 2K and 2A frame traps). FC2B Crouching Montante is still in so I guess there was no room for his old FC3B. Maybe put it in as FC1B???
 
Old FC3B should have stayed and new FC3B should have been FC3A+B but since no one has any moves anymore we can't have that.
 
People have moves! I recently realized just how simple Raph is compared to the rest of the cast. My other mains, Ivy and Natsu, have more tools (regardless of validity or strength,) than Raphael by far.

I just wish they let him keep more moves as opposed to his current, simplified, move-list.
 
Zanaken said:
People have moves! I recently realized just how simple Raph is compared to the rest of the cast. My other mains, Ivy and Natsu, have more tools (regardless of validity or strength,) than Raphael by far.

I just wish they let him keep more moves as opposed to his current, simplified, move-list.
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One could write and entire book on the moves every one has lost since SC2. So basically I say no one has any moves anymore.

Raph was amongst the most complicated characters in SC2. Nowadays he's dirt simple.
 
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Had a dream where there were no longer SE stance moves, but you could cancel prep4 into the SE A/B/K attacks and prep4 had a big fat GI window and TC'd for a long time too. Obviously SE K out of prep4 would whiff and kinda defeat it's ability to be a close-range unsteppable low.
 
WuHT said:
Had a dream where there were no longer SE stance moves, but you could cancel prep4 into the SE A/B/K attacks and prep4 had a big fat GI window and TC'd for a long time too. Obviously SE K out of prep4 would whiff and kinda defeat it's ability to be a close-range unsteppable low.
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Interesting dream. And does the Prep 4 in the game actually TC??

Edit: You mentioned 1A in the Top Ten Moves thread but I decided to talk about it in this thread. Raph has 2A, an i13 +8 SL step killer, safe on block but sucky range. Then he has two more true lows, 2K and 1A. I love 2K since it tracks pretty well and can bait attacks with the -2. I've noticed we have a short range 2A, slightly longer range 2K, and a long range 1A. 1A needs to track to both sides fully to justify it's -16 and -4 on hit, probably a damage increase too (15 for me, 10 is sad). The design should look like this:
  • + on hit close range special low (10 damage)
  • -2 longer range 2K (12 damage)
  • long range fully tracking -4 1A (15 damage).
More "balanced" for lack of a better word.
 
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Fendante said:
The design should look like this:
  • + on hit close range special low (10 damage)
  • -2 longer range 2K (12 damage)
  • long range fully tracking -4 1A (15 damage).
More "balanced" for lack of a better word.
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Similar to how I perceive a balanced "low move" model.
  • 2K being the generic unseeable low damage low poke. The fact that it tracks decently is a complete bonus, and more than compensates that is is still (-) on CH.
  • 1A being the annoying long ranged tracking low poke that is slightly more (-) on hit and is borderline react-able (20 frames). Keep in mind that raph steps in quite a bit, so on hit, the move actually moves you closer to the opponent. Low damage is currently not justified.
  • 11BB is the quirky low, because while it is fast (i17) is readable from 8wr movements. CH for 2 hits, or uninterruptable 2nd hit on NH.
  • 11K is the move that serves to beat rollers as well as provide that ambiguous even on hit while putting Raph super close. Luckily, in SC5, Raph's basic up-close moveset is actually really reliable at +0. His evades/aGIs windows will actually work, he has good step killers (2A/6AB/3A/2K), great 6BB BE to CH anything slower than i13 that doesn't TS/TC and no one will backdash against Raph at that range.
  • 33B is my personal darkhorse. Almost 30 damage, and is the other low move that will beat the "guts" system along with 11K when the opponent's lifebar turns orange. Incredible range, plus the spacing it provides on hit (opponent pushed back, and Raph also takes a step back) is basically a clean reset. The built in side-step doesn't really help, but adds enough animation frames for Raph to catch people ukemi-ing (mostly due to the width of the blade rather than actual tracking) from some knockdown setups.
11BB is probably the weakest of the bunch, simply because Raph sadly isn't that scary when threatening between the 11B (-4 on hit) or the 2nd hit on CH. Likely, it is supposed to not be an a good low. 1A, however, could potentially be a core move in Raph's movelist.

Would I choose better tracking vs more damage vs even-on-hit? Probably more tracking if I had my way.
 
I have to agree that more tracking is the best choice, but I disagree with 11BB being the weakest. Imo 1A is the weakest since it can bet stepped to the left (I think), is quite unsafe, barely double digit damage, and is the most - on hit. 11BB on the other hand is safer, leads to 30ish dmg on CH, and aligns fairly well. Yeah 11BB is not meant to be a great low but 1A has never been that good in Raph's "career" either. Just add tracking to 1A or maybe better, replace it with SC2 2A and Im happy.

Btw does anyone miss SC2/3 2A?? That move had so much better range that this 2A.
 
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