Raphael's SCV Command List

[Azure]

Yes because everyone played equally as lame by whoring step g and g2

like seriously sc2 is a bad game
i played it twice and was beating people who swear its the best shit ever at fsak because its that shallow

I hope namco ignores this thread because for once raph looks good

this is what the majority wants in this thread hater. So, start a new one if you disagree :P

 

[WARUI_NE]

I'm pretty sure that's a joke since it's historically well known that necrid and console exclusives were banned, but i can't tell sometimes on the internet!

$20, but we film it and when I win you have to say on camera "I now know the warm, loving embrace of SC2 Raphael."

I am %100 serious about hei I didnt play the game at all so everyone can gimmick me out
as for the terms I agree. But if I win (which I probably wont as I understand you were at a different level then the peeps I played at fsak ) but I aint no bitch and dont back out of mms
you have to say sc3 is the great and sc2 is awful on camera

azure: chill out kid its the internet not everyone will agree with you

 

[0VincentRayne0]

I am %100 serious about hei I didnt play the game at all so everyone can gimmick me out
as for the terms I agree. But if I win (which I probably wont as I understand you were at a different level then the peeps I played at fsak )
you have to say sc3 is the great and sc2 is awful on camera

in terms of atmosphere and stages i agree. but the music and voice acting in SC2 were superior in my opinion.

 

[Runemaster]

Waru & Winter:
Man up & meet up already, and please film the match. I can't wait to see the result! Come on guys :)

Back to topic:
I can't stand the "dumbed down" Raph version he is today. I miss the complex Raph with all his options and glory.
Zoning and dancing with SC2 Raph was very fun. SC2 Raph is still superior in my eyes.

 

[LollipopInMyHair]

Raph looks fine, I would like to see some old moves come back from SC2, but we don't need a carbon copy.

 

[crow_winters]

I am %100 serious about hei I didnt play the game at all so everyone can gimmick me out
as for the terms I agree. But if I win (which I probably wont as I understand you were at a different level then the peeps I played at fsak ) but I aint no bitch and dont back out of mms
you have to say sc3 is the great and sc2 is awful on camera

azure: chill out kid its the internet not everyone will agree with you

To give you an idea of how broke/unfinished Hei is in SC2, the second hit of 9KK can't be blocked if you block the first hit. lol Of course, the secret I never told anyone (or needed to, since, you know, ban) is that you can still jump (but not do a jumping attack, go figure, since in SC2 jumping actually jumped on frame one) the second hit and punish it with a WL move. Oh, WL moves... that's a whole thread onto itself on why those should return.

And you're on. In the event you do win, it'd be interesting to see if I catch on fire or not before finishing that sentence. See you in SC5.

 

[WuHT]

This is why making claims like "i can beat people after only playing 2 hours" will always backfire. You may have a minor point about SC2 being stupid-easy, but its buried underneath the premise that your judgment is greater than others who have a better understanding. Its a good thing to keep around on this board just as a warning to others though.
---
On point: the fact that 6BB and prep BB in sc5 look the same (and i'd wager that 6AB and prep 6AB do so as well) means that you look like you're soul charge cancelling with prep since the move looks and hopefully functions similarly. And as a poker, I agree that SC2 raph seemed more poke orientated and less prep-rushdown than his SC4 version. He does not really have a long range poke like his SC2 66B (his 3B animation, but with a significant dash foward).

In fact, 3B in sc4 was primarily used for the push back + SG, or for a strong prep entry, or as a the longest ranged i16 mid punish for nearly 40 damage. It wasn't really used as a poke you'd do after a stand-off with your opponent or when you're both pacing around in circles.

 

[Runemaster]

Raph looks fine, I would like to see some old moves come back from SC2, but we don't need a carbon copy.

Yeah I know, asking a SC2 Raph replica in SC5 is impossibru!
What I'd wish is the current Raph to be upgraded with his SC2's versatility and options; be able to control the zone more, great defensive AEs, have more prep stances & not too linear and boring like he is now.

I still miss his SC2 BB, 6BBB and his 3B though.
But maybe that is asking too much :p

 

[Azure]

What do we think about this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzPWfvA9q1k&list=FLcc_Q0q3UMa5ajMeMQ86pxQ&index=1&feature=plpp_video

how do you find out the frame data for moves?

 

[WuHT]

yeah that video there was another version with way louder sound and slightly worse quality floating around since october.

 

[Reignhart]

System issues aside, SC2 Raph's concept is just more interesting and fun.
I won't talk about frames because SC2 to SC4 the frames were really different for the entire cast, not just Raph.

His AE was way better:
- A+K to avoid all M/L, B+K to avoid all H/M.
- AE evades kicks
- There's double A+K, multiple B+K (although it's only from some specific moves)
- Instead of the long ass taunt AE, they were small minute movements

He had Prep I, II, III, IV. This concept made him really interesting.
He could attack and go to:
- neutral, Prep II, III or IV (depending on move)
- - From Prep II, III or IV, he could choose to press on, empty prep or retreat into Prep I (which auto GIs all Horis)
- - - From Prep I he could attack or just stop there

I personally miss his 214B.
It was a retreat into a stab. 214B is the normal ver, 214(B) auto-GIs all mids. The awesome thing is that it had a light 214(B) which is faster than the full hold but has less auto-GI window.

So yeah, his SC 2 concept is great. The system made him not that great (horis whiffing, step G).

----
Is there any news on Raph's teleports?
If they are still in, I hope that they made them useful.

 

[Runemaster]

Reignhart, I agree with you.
It's the multiple preps that makes him interesting. So much variation and options.
It was only in his SC2 version that he can say "let's dance", and can literally dance his opponent to death.

And yeah, his AEs were amazing.
I can still remember how awesome it was to A+K astaroth's axe multiple times then BAM!

It's a pity that they dumbed down Raph to a single prep and make him a boring linear rushdown character.

 

[WuHT]

SC4 has:

Prep leading to SEA, SEB and VE as options (as well as VE being a standalone stance) and that prep and SEA has attacks that re-enter prep. The stances have different names but he does have actually quite a few different stances

 

[WARUI_NE]

In my opinion raphael in sc4 should never be played rush down he simply doesnt have the tools needed

his frames suck,his ch options are mediocre, and his fastest move is i13 I much prefer to play him zoner/turtle

 

[Azure]

sad but true, warui_ne :(. All we can do is hope for the dance in 5. And once again, how do you guys learn all of this frame data. how do you read it? is there a link on this site that gives the info.

 

[WuHT]

And once again, how do you guys learn all of this frame data. how do you read it? is there a link on this site that gives the info.

Alright here is a thread, which is alright useful : http://8wayrun.com/threads/frame-data-and-you-a-laymans-guide.2800/

Theory and concept of frames :
In short, you can access the raw frame data from the wiki (which i assume you already know) but i'll link anyways for someother lurker: http://8wayrun.com/wiki/raphael-frame-data-sc4/for example

The concept of frames is strictly on a no-whiff policy, as its mostly used to determine 1) which moves are punishable
2) which moves to punish if blocking an opponent's move 3) are you advantage or disadvantage if moves hit and how many frames.

All this boils down to is, if both players react as fast as possible to someone getting hit or blocking, which move would win in terms of sheer speed.

Application:

The impact number is basically how fast a move will hit an opponent from the moment your character is available to perform an action (not when you inputted the move).

The +/- frames on block basically means how many relative frames you are ahead/behind of your opponent. Why it is relative is that both the attacker and the defender recover from the "impact" of the hit/block at different speeds, so it only matters relatively how much faster/slower you do so.

There are different +/- frame values for moves on block, hit and counterhit, which means that generally you should input a defensive tactic if your previous attack was guarded. On the flip side, you should have the initiative to attack again should you prior attack hit successfully.

 

[Azure]

thank you wuht. i know of the concept of frame data i just didn't know how to read it. i learn whats safe by usually watching how i lose.

 

[Reignhart]

WuHT:
Having Prep accessible from different stances and having extensions from a single Prep are two very different concepts.

Let's think of it this way... If NM's GS is now made accessible only from NSS.
Is that the same as having GS and NSS as two separate stances?

So in essence,
SC IV Raph only has 2 stances: Prep and VE, while
SC II Raph has 4 stances: Prep I, II, III, IV

 

[Azure]

raph in 2

WuHT:
Having Prep accessible from different stances and having extensions from a single Prep are two very different concepts.

Let's think of it this way... If NM's GS is now made accessible only from NSS.
Is that the same as having GS and NSS as two separate stances?

So in essence,
SC IV Raph only has 2 stances: Prep and VE, while
SC II Raph has 4 stances: Prep I, II, III, IV

raph in 2 also had advance and retreat step. which I hope the devteam returns as well.

 

[WuHT]

Im' not advocating quality over quantity, but here are some additional thoughts: since each attack can only lead to one stance initially, you'd end up with a lot of inferior choices which could result in raph becoming too gimmicky and relying on character ignorance.

Prep and VE i suppose are his "core" stances and SEA and SEB become supplementary to prep if he manages to freeze his opponent in SC4. Considering what we've seen so far, it appears that SC5 raph is just prep and SEB from prep.