Reverse Edge needs a nerf

darkfender

[10] Knight
The harsh sad true is tis soulcalibur as a Whole is extremely spammy and lost the road of what soulcalibur used to be.

They killed what the game used to be with CE, RE, universal GI with a long window….but mostly increasing damage on strings, mixups etc and decreasing punishers….

SCVI might have some cool stuff but its not how soulcalibur used to be, i guess they wanted to appeal to other fighting games crowd.
Like it or not.
 

Slade

[14] Master
Never thought I'd see so many complaints about easily whiff-punishable i47+ verticals.

One complaint that might be justified is that whiff punishes aren't as strong as they used to be, primarily due to the weakening of bread-and-buffer 3B combos and the removal of Brave Edges. (I've only had the chance to mess around with a handful of characters so this may not be the case across the board.)

Instead of going for optimal damage off whiff punishers, the game seems to incentivize oki setups. This is certainly the case for characters such as Groh, Ivy, and Voldo. Their mid/low mixups were buffed to compensate for the fact that they've gone from being 50/50s to being 25/25/25/25s due to RE/GI and break attacks entering the mix.

It will take time to develop an understanding of how strong each option is in relation to its opposites. The fact that I'm seeing people complain about conventional 50/50s such as Ivy's 2A+G/2B+K and also complain about the counters to those mixups (RE/GI) tells me that we're still pretty far from achieving that understanding.

EDIT: RE is i46 apparently, or i66 if fully charged.
 
Last edited:

Tha_Shogun

[10] Knight
Never thought I'd see so many complaints about easily whiff-punishable i47+ verticals.

One complaint that might be justified is that whiff punishes aren't as strong as they used to be, primarily due to the weakening of bread-and-buffer 3B combos and the removal of Brave Edges. (I've only had the chance to mess around with a handful of characters so this may not be the case across the board.)

Instead of going for optimal damage off whiff punishers, the game seems to incentivize oki setups. This is certainly the case for characters such as Groh, Ivy, and Voldo. Their mid/low mixups were buffed to compensate for the fact that they've gone from being 50/50s to being 25/25/25/25s due to RE/GI and break attacks entering the mix.

It will take time to develop an understanding of how strong each option is in relation to its opposites. The fact that I'm seeing people complain about conventional 50/50s such as Ivy's 2A+G/2B+K and also complain about the counters to those mixups (RE/GI) tells me that we're still pretty far from achieving that understanding.

Catch all....eliminates idea of 50/50 strings.....my recent posted video of RE face tanking my unblockable.
 

HappyColour

[11] Champion
Just my two cents.

A big fan of reversal edge. Love to see what it has done for newer players as an equalizer. I personally haven't had a problem with it, honestly people that say the rock, paper, scissors mechanic is random in my opinion are missing something. It isn't random! Even if people think they are being random with their inputs they will still have tendencies, just like real fighting, you got to pick up on that reaction and tendency of the other player and capitalize.

I have fought many reversal edge heavy players who have said to me 'How come you keep winning? I am just randomly selecting a button each time.' And my success is found in the fact that no one that thinks they are random, are random. As a matter of fact it is harder to be true random than it is to have a set pattern, finding that pattern is challenging of course but it is what makes the reversal edge mechanic so exciting to me. : )

Plus it provides disincentive to rush down style attacks, which I personally don't like, that is just a personal preference of mine though. :D The more like real strategy used in fighting this game has, the better it is in my eyes!
 

Solaris_142

[01] Neophyte
Hello guys. I just joined the site today and was reading some of this thread.

I got the game this weekend and I have to say I love it. I used to play the old SoulCalibur game on the original Xbox but I have not played much fighting games since back in the day, and I'm loving getting back into this. I have it for the PS4

I just progressed enough that I won my first fight on legendary yesterday against Geralt (No Critical attacks or ring outs except one ring out when his health was already just about gone anyhow.) And I've been practicing on legendary to learn more tricks and moves at the faster pace, and it's just a hell of a lot of fun at that level.

But I have to say, about this reversal edge thing. I was getting pissed off about it today playing on training mode set to legendary and the CPU would do it way too often. Sometimes four times pretty much back to back. I'm trying to practice moves, and just want to fight, legit. and have to keep constantly having to stop what I'm trying to do and get sucked into this stupid reversal edge sequence. It was getting extremely annoying and greatly taking away from the fun of the game. And I was wondering why there is no option to turn that junk off when playing the CPU if you want. Especially in training mode. That kind of thing should be optional in my opinion. But then I figured out the side step to avoid it, as I saw mentioned in the thread. So that is kind of satisfying when you get the side step out of it just right and put an attack on instead. But I would very much prefer it wasn't there at all.

I'm reading you guys talking about people online spamming the reversal edge. My question is, since I've yet to play a fighting game online. How the online works. Is there a lobby to meet friends or whatever. Can you make a game private for just a few players that like to play together? Or does it randomly match you up with people? So I'm wondering if the reversal edge is mostly just an annoying stupid function many like myself don't care for, can't a game be set up were the players playing just agree not to use it? I very much wish there was just an option in single player to turn it off. And hope they will add an update someday with an option for people that want to play offline and don't want the stupid thing.


I'm an old school fighting game gamer and I'm not a big fan of the critical attacks either, even though they look really cool. Back in the day there was never such a type of move. To me seems just like a magic button that takes near to half a players health while watching a cartoon fight. Not a real fight move at all. I almost never use the critical attacks since I actually want to win with real fighting... The critical attacks would be great just for a spectacular finishing move. But really, I have no desire to win a fight just because I pushed a button that caused an animation to take over the fighting for me and destroys half my opponents health. That gives me no satisfaction at all. However, I do love the other soul charge option that sets my blade a flame. That's bad ass. :)

Sorry about the long post and rant. :) But other than that I love the game very much. I love weapon based fighting. Love being able to use a sword and the game over all is just bad ass. :) I would like to try online at some point and make some friends for battling with on a regular basis.
 
Last edited:

javert

[03] Disciple
Never thought I'd see so many complaints about easily whiff-punishable i47+ verticals.

This. RE is the least of my concerns regarding the mechanics.

If the opponent REs, a lot of the time I can continue a string and hope to stuff the startup, or sidestep and punish and, even if it hits, it's even for both so the one doing it exposes himself to 50 / 50s.

I gotta agree that the length of the cinematic sequence is a little long and could be shortened by a second or two given that it happens often. That said, limiting its use by making it cost meter is probably off the table since some characters seem to be designed about being able to Reversal Edge freely and cancel as a way to parry moves (Raphael and Talim).
 

Leinahtan

[10] Knight
Do you have a video of RE face-tanking a break attack?
He posted it - it seems it got canceled by a clash from the RE's release attack and not the RE itself, which I never knew were possible vs unblockables. Can you clash unblockables with normal attacks with comparative input strength?
 

Tha_Shogun

[10] Knight
He posted it - it seems it got canceled by a clash from the RE's release attack and not the RE itself, which I never knew were possible vs unblockables. Can you clash unblockables with normal attacks with comparative input strength?

It didnt clash despite what the animation shows. You cant clash with unblockables. The player was well within range to get hit by the unblockable.

Unblockables have priority over everything in the game. At best you can trade or interupt it before it's finished but once it's out it's out.

RE is a catch all that also has priority over unblockables
 

Tha_Shogun

[10] Knight
Hello guys. I just joined the site today and was reading some of this thread.

I got the game this weekend and I have to say I love it. I used to play the old SoulCalibur game on the original Xbox but I have not played much fighting games since back in the day, and I'm loving getting back into this. I have it for the PS4

I just progressed enough that I won my first fight on legendary yesterday against Geralt (No Critical attacks or ring outs except one ring out when his health was already just about gone anyhow.) And I've been practicing on legendary to learn more tricks and moves at the faster pace, and it's just a hell of a lot of fun at that level.

But I have to say, about this reversal edge thing. I was getting pissed off about it today playing on training mode set to legendary and the CPU would do it way too often. Sometimes four times pretty much back to back. I'm trying to practice moves, and just want to fight, legit. and have to keep constantly having to stop what I'm trying to do and get sucked into this stupid reversal edge sequence. It was getting extremely annoying and greatly taking away from the fun of the game. And I was wondering why there is no option to turn that junk off when playing the CPU if you want. Especially in training mode. That kind of thing should be optional in my opinion. But then I figured out the side step to avoid it, as I saw mentioned in the thread. So that is kind of satisfying when you get the side step out of it just right and put an attack on instead. But I would very much prefer it wasn't there at all.

I'm reading you guys talking about people online spamming the reversal edge. My question is, since I've yet to play a fighting game online. How the online works. Is there a lobby to meet friends or whatever. Can you make a game private for just a few players that like to play together? Or does it randomly match you up with people? So I'm wondering if the reversal edge is mostly just an annoying stupid function many like myself don't care for, can't a game be set up were the players playing just agree not to use it? I very much wish there was just an option in single player to turn it off. And hope they will add an update someday with an option for people that want to play offline and don't want the stupid thing.


I'm an old school fighting game gamer and I'm not a big fan of the critical attacks either, even though they look really cool. Back in the day there was never such a type of move. To me seems just like a magic button that takes near to half a players health while watching a cartoon fight. Not a real fight move at all. I almost never use the critical attacks since I actually want to win with real fighting... The critical attacks would be great just for a spectacular finishing move. But really, I have no desire to win a fight just because I pushed a button that caused an animation to take over the fighting for me and destroys half my opponents health. That gives me no satisfaction at all. However, I do love the other soul charge option that sets my blade a flame. That's bad ass. :)

Sorry about the long post and rant. :) But other than that I love the game very much. I love weapon based fighting. Love being able to use a sword and the game over all is just bad ass. :) I would like to try online at some point and make some friends for battling with on a regular basis.

Yes you can meet with friends in the lobby, but they took voice chat away so in order to speak to them you have to party chat. Welcome to the forums and hope this helps.
 

Skiegh

[05] Battler
Reversal edge might not be so bad if the game didn't pick random inputs for me when it actually did hit me.

Seriously, I take my hands off the stick when it starts hoping I'll just get guard, but it still just picks something random for me. I don't think I've ever gotten what I wanted from this thing. No joke. Not once. Which I guess is fine, sometimes the RNG of it has worked in my favor. Good job mystery input picker.

--

About RE in general though. I can't say it enhances the experience, but I can't say I despise it either. I'd prefer if it didn't do the whole guessing game cinematic, but that's a modern fighting game for ya. I'm biased though, I play Talim, who while can be blown up by RE at times, can also punish it pretty easily at others.

I do think it builds too much meter and tracks a bit too well when charged at times.
 

Solaris_142

[01] Neophyte
Yes you can meet with friends in the lobby, but they took voice chat away so in order to speak to them you have to party chat. Welcome to the forums and hope this helps.

Thank you The_Shogun. And thanks for answering my question about the online play. Yeah party chat would be fine. Party chat is generally a better chat option than in game chat anyways. Looking forward to getting into Soulcalibur online. But I want to beat legendary arcade mode at least once first before I start playing online. Also I will have to renew my PS plus. It must have just recently expired.

Talk about CPU spamming reversal edge. I saved this clip from a little earlier. I did a good job of avoiding it. But see how the CPU is doing it over and over again? Do developers watch these forums? Please give us a simple option to turn the damn thing off in single player at least. If it has to be online so be it. At least human players can choose not to be using it if they don't like it.


 

tntedesco

[01] Neophyte
RE is a terrible mechanic. Unfortunately it’s not restricted to low level play. if it were implemented in any serious competitive fighting game, it would be despised. Harada would have to be insane to implement something similar in Tekken. Clearly the devs designed this game for casuals and it should not be taken seriously. I’m not so sure this game will have significant balance patches in the future, they seem to be focused on dlc, guest characters and other ways of taking money from casuals.
 

Slade

[14] Master
He posted it - it seems it got canceled by a clash from the RE's release attack and not the RE itself, which I never knew were possible vs unblockables. Can you clash unblockables with normal attacks with comparative input strength?
Break attack, not unblockable.

RE is a catch all that also has priority over unblockables
I wasn't aware that break attacks do not fall under the category of "all." Simply listing the things RE beats while ignoring the things it doesn't beat is not persuasive.

The gold standard for determining balance in fighting games is risk versus reward.

You could argue that the reward for RE outweighs the risk to such an extent that it crowds out the other mechanics of the game, punishes people for not using it constantly, and that it's disproportionately harmful to characters who rely on offense over defense.

You could then attempt to substantiate that argument by looking at the damage numbers of characters' RE options, taking into account that the initiator of RE may or may not get guaranteed damage on the initial hit, and may or may not succeed in the subsequent clashes, and that a second-phase victory gives the winner extended combos off lethal hits, and that the initiator wins ties in the second phase; and then you could figure out the numbers for the risks, which include missing the RE and getting whiff punished, losing the RE minigame, or getting crushed by a break attack and an ensuing lethal-hit combo; and then you could weigh each outcome by the probability of its occurring (might require some estimation); and then — if the numbers support the idea that RE is imbalanced — you'd have a pretty strong argument.

Short of that … well, the game is less than two weeks old. Calling for nerfs might be a bit premature.
 

Slade

[14] Master
I think I figured out what caused that clash, by the way. Unblockables can trade with other unblockables (test case: Groh lands 6A against another Groh and both do 2B+K). Full-charged RE is unblockable, therefore it can trade with other unblockables. (Test case: Groh AAA on block into 2B+K clashes with full-charged RE.) Makes sense.
 

Windstar

[13] Hero
It didnt clash despite what the animation shows. You cant clash with unblockables. The player was well within range to get hit by the unblockable.

Unblockables have priority over everything in the game. At best you can trade or interupt it before it's finished but once it's out it's out.

RE is a catch all that also has priority over unblockables


Tested unblockables against RE. RE loses every time.

Unblockables have always clashed since SC2 at least. Same with break attacks.
 
Last edited:

Leinahtan

[10] Knight
I think I figured out what caused that clash, by the way. Unblockables can trade with other unblockables (test case: Groh lands 6A against another Groh and both do 2B+K). Full-charged RE is unblockable, therefore it can trade with other unblockables. (Test case: Groh AAA on block into 2B+K clashes with full-charged RE.) Makes sense.
I think he figured it out. So a fully charged RE or an RE that you hit once gains the unblockable trait for its attack, which lets it clash cancel the unblockable. Cute :P
 

damn-I-Suck

[12] Conqueror
My main gripe with RE is not the RPS game itself, or the get out of jail 'mostly' free card, it's the long cinematic that takes away the flow and forces you to stop what you were planning on doing at that moment and commit to a RPS game. I also don't like that it builds meter at all.

And just playing against the AI legendary mode, against groh his pressure is so relentless I can't even squeeze a fast move in between after I block. Yes I don't know the matchup at all, but it feels like he's constantly at +frames. I play Siegfried right now, it seems my only option is to play extreme keep away and hope for whiffs. It's crazy because, I also tried shoehorning an RE in between his attacks and it STILL gets stuffed. It's just continuous attacks that never stop. I need help in this matchup BADLY. Stance roulette is also out of the question, too slow.

Historically Siegs fastest move was standing k, at i13. No one knows the frame data yet so I'm guessing it's around there. B6 feels pretty fast as is a great CH tool in this game. I cant even punish with those moves after I block, I just eat a CH. For RE to be a 'universal defensive option', I can't find a good place to use it here.

Of course none of this could mean anything because it could all boil down to instant-button-reading AI.
 

Solaris_142

[01] Neophyte
RE is a terrible mechanic. Unfortunately it’s not restricted to low level play. if it were implemented in any serious competitive fighting game, it would be despised. Harada would have to be insane to implement something similar in Tekken. Clearly the devs designed this game for casuals and it should not be taken seriously. I’m not so sure this game will have significant balance patches in the future, they seem to be focused on dlc, guest characters and other ways of taking money from casuals.

Well if enough people don't like the reversal edge which it sounds like it, it's easy enough not to use it... I'm personally not sure what the craze is about Tekken. I played it once long ago in an arcade and didn't like it very much. Started hearing people talking about it so checked into if it's different now. Just looks like such a bland fighter to me. What makes people like it so much? "Shrugs"

Watched some streams of Soulcalibur online. I didn't notice the reversal edge being used much. Though I did notice all the goofy looking custom characters people are using. Might be difficult taking Soulcalibur seriously anyways when it looks like that lol. Maybe the creation mode wasn't such a good idea. But apparently people are enjoying using it.


I did a lot of practicing this morning in training mode. Trying to get the guard break down and practicing other moves in combination with it. Granted I've not played a fighting game much in a long time but I've never played a fighter that feels as good as this Soulcalibur does. And I absolutely love using Misturugi's sword. And I love the guard break It's such a satisfying move when timed right.
 
Last edited: