Reverse Edge needs a nerf

Slade

[14] Master
My main gripe with RE is not the RPS game itself, or the get out of jail 'mostly' free card, it's the long cinematic that takes away the flow and forces you to stop what you were planning on doing at that moment and commit to a RPS game.
I agree. I think Soul Charge is actually worse in this regard, since it’s basically a free momentum killer with almost no risk attached to its activation.

And just playing against the AI legendary mode, against groh his pressure is so relentless I can't even squeeze a fast move in between after I block. Yes I don't know the matchup at all, but it feels like he's constantly at +frames. I play Siegfried right now, it seems my only option is to play extreme keep away and hope for whiffs. It's crazy because, I also tried shoehorning an RE in between his attacks and it STILL gets stuffed. It's just continuous attacks that never stop. I need help in this matchup BADLY. Stance roulette is also out of the question, too slow.

Historically Siegs fastest move was standing k, at i13. No one knows the frame data yet so I'm guessing it's around there. B6 feels pretty fast as is a great CH tool in this game. I cant even punish with those moves after I block, I just eat a CH. For RE to be a 'universal defensive option', I can't find a good place to use it here.
Sieg’s K and WR K are i12 in this game, which is the same speed of a typical 2A or AA now. A lot of his frames are in the wiki now, though it’s still a work in progress.

Groh’s frames are also up, and I’d recommend taking a look at them. The most important takeaway is that Groh’s fastest stance options (AVN B at i12 and AVN K at i16) are interruptable after most of his stance entrances on block (A+B6 and 4A6 being exceptions), but are not interruptable if he enters the stance off landing a hit. RE takes 6 frames to start up, so any stance entrance that puts him at +7 or higher means his AVN B will beat out RE before it can parry anything. That includes all of his entrances to the stance from neutral except for 6A6 on normal hit (but not on counter hit). However, both of the options he has in stance that put him back into stance, AVN B and AVN K, are only +3 into stance, so if he mixes you up with the first move he does in stance, you can use RE to counter the next move. (Watch out for AVN B+K, which is his in-stance counter to RE and GI.) Also, be sure to check the frames to find your options if he enters stance after you block his attack. Once he’s in stance his only options are to attack or to attempt to cancel the stance with the built-in sidestep, which is hugely unsafe. If he’s - enough that you can interrupt AVN B, it’s basically a free punish.

You should also practice GIing the second hit of Groh's 66BB on block, since it’s tied with 66AA for his strongest zoning tool. As Siegfried you’re going to want to try to keep him out of the range where he can use AA and 2A to interrupt you, since Sieg is comparatively slow. You should also be careful not to rely too much on B6, since it’s -16 on block (Groh can punish with 6BB6 into stance mixups or use CE). 3K is as fast as B6 but is only -10 (but -2 on hit). You can probably get away with using agA a lot against Groh, since it’ll kill his tech-step moves (66AA, 66BB), is 0 on block, does good damage, and because he doesn’t have many TC moves (6B+K his his hard-read TC option, but it’s slow, linear, and -8 into stance, which means you can punish with i19 or faster).

I haven’t learned Siegfried yet so I can’t offer matchup advice more specific than that.
 

Windstar

[13] Hero
It may not be possible to GI Groh's 66BB or 66AA from block as both of those attacks are natural combos on the first hit. It is possible to GI the second hit of 6AA from block, but 6A can transistion into AVN stance from 6A rather quickly.
 

damn-I-Suck

[12] Conqueror
dude slade ur the man. Aga has always been a staple, will use it more in this matchup. WIll need to spend some time in training with groh to learn visually what moves are what. Since I know zilch about groh right now, this will take some time. THANK YOU for that wonderfully helpful post!
 

Windstar

[13] Hero
dude slade ur the man. Aga has always been a staple, will use it more in this matchup. WIll need to spend some time in training with groh to learn visually what moves are what. Since I know zilch about groh right now, this will take some time. THANK YOU for that wonderfully helpful post!
If you want some more tips, here's a few.

Groh's basically really strong against vertical attacks. He has a lot of auto-evades or built-in evades on several attacks that will allow him to completely dodge vertical attacks. 66AA, 4B, 22B, are his most apparent, but he also has 6A+B, 4A and 44A that can also punish vertical attacks. Perhaps ironically, he doesn't have too many TCs and a lot of his horizontals are actually high (including his 22A, 6A, 22bA and 44A). So your best options are going to be to duck a lot and attack with horizontals and while rising attacks.
 

Solaris_142

[01] Neophyte
dude slade ur the man. Aga has always been a staple, will use it more in this matchup. WIll need to spend some time in training with groh to learn visually what moves are what. Since I know zilch about groh right now, this will take some time. THANK YOU for that wonderfully helpful post!
The majority of my playing has been in training mode lately. I'm still pretty new to the game and there is a lot of different things I'm trying to learn and get use to.

It's nice being able to just battle and practice without any round interruptions. And also choose between different difficulties and set the CPU to just do specific moves if you want. I don't need the game to stop and say I won or lost to tell me if I'm kicking butt or getting butt kicked lol.

The best part, that I didn't realize before, is there is a reset button. So any time I get caught in that dumb reversal edge sequence I can just hit a button to stop it and continue fighting. I don't have to sit through it. Same thing with when the critical attack happens I don't have to sit through the animation of it. Can just skip back to the fight. Or if I get all my damn cloths knocked off lol. Reset gets them back.

That was my issue with the reversal edge as well. The CPU was just doing it over and over and over I kept getting caught in it so I couldn't even play. Was pissing me off. Wouldn't even bother me as much if it was just once in a while. But it was doing it constantly. Though I'm getting better at avoiding it now at least. With guard impact and side steps. And if it catches me, reset... lol. Reset isn't as good as just having an option to turn it off like they should have had all along, of course, but I'll take it. Better than nothing.


Edit: I was just playing on hard difficulty on arcade mode to practice some recently learned moves in arcade. I was in a match with Xianghu and again I get into a situation where the CPU just starts doing reversal edge repeatedly, literally one right after another. And just kept doing it. what a joke. The only way to even play the match is to be constantly avoiding the reversal edge or be in the sequence the entire time. It pisses me off because I love the game so much, it's such an awesome fighter other than for that. And they have destroyed their own game and turned it into a piece of garbage with one stupid program. They seriously need to do something about it... I'm just going to assume they will end up fixing it because why would they want to leave something so obviously wrong with their game?

I'll be forced to play nothing but training mode or online because the regular single player game play is such a joke. Either that or just throw the damn game in the garbage and forget about it... Okay rant over.

Damn I see what you mean about Groh. I thought I was only on hard difficulty but it sure ramped up quite a bit. I swear I had an easier time beating him on very hard setting before. He was coming at me fast and hard. I somehow managed to win the match. I was going to give up after this one too, and go to sleep. I'm going to have train with him more as well.

 
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damn-I-Suck

[12] Conqueror
The difference between very hard and legendary is huge. Very hard is a breeze while Legendary is RQ.

Seriously, after several attempts to beat groh and azwell, I finally get to inferno and have the mother of all RQ. He did an aerial combo with flying horizontals that literally took 90% of my life bar. One match he actually got 3 perfects on me in a row. He is the most ridiculous boss character i've ever faced.

I gave up. Put the controller down, smoked a big fatty, and watched some netflix.

Back on topic though, honestly RE is only annoying with the AI. With players it doesn't seem to be abused and even if it is, players adapt quickly and step more or mix up with GB moves. With the instant-button-reading AI, the AI only throws it out when it's not going to be stepped or GD'ed.
 

Slade

[14] Master
It may not be possible to GI Groh's 66BB or 66AA from block as both of those attacks are natural combos on the first hit. It is possible to GI the second hit of 6AA from block, but 6A can transistion into AVN stance from 6A rather quickly.
I knew for sure that 66BB can be GIed. Turns out that 66AA can’t, but it’s -14, so you get a decent punish.

Ok, great. So Taki can beat RE with a flurry of attacks and stance mobility. Now perform this with the rest of the cast.
Taki is maybe the weakest character in SC6. If she can beat RE….
 

Solaris_142

[01] Neophyte
The difference between very hard and legendary is huge. Very hard is a breeze while Legendary is RQ.

yeah I know it is. I've played it on every difficulty. A lot of times I train on hard because it's normally slow enough to practice moves and combos easily enough. And I've walked right through the game on very hard before. So far the only one I was able to beat on legendary is Geralt, after a couple hours of trying. And so far on every difficulty he has always been the easiest one to beat.

So I don't know what was going on last night. Hard mode started getting as hard or harder than very hard difficulty has been. Groh was coming at me with a vengeance. Really, I've walked through very hard difficulty much easier lol. The last couple matches last night on hard I was barely able to win and took me several tries. I didn't think I was going to be able to beat Groh But I did somehow on my final attempt. I had set it to hard because I thought it was going to be easy to practice a few combos I was working on in training. I was seriously starting to wonder if I had mistakenly set it to a harder difficulty without realizing it, but I don't think so. That's fine though, not saying it wasn't a fun fight. Except for the times I was getting caught in repeated reversal edges. I'm glad to hear the reversal edge isn't too much an issue online. I need to get my PS plus renewed so I can try it online. I'm not sure if my internet is good enough for it, but I'll try it and see. I'm able to do other games without much problems, but fighting games are probably different, I don't know.

I have to go practice the guard impact some more. I was starting to get it down pretty good but last nights fighting through me off it a bit. I figured out one of the good combos and was trying to practice that. I was getting it down earlier today pretty well. I'm not real familiar with the lingo yet, so I'll just post a clip of what I was trying to work on. If you all don't mind.

I was a bit proud of myself for figuring this one out. I wasn't sure I could do it. It's a little tricky for me to hit the buttons right. But I've been practicing it and it's getting easier.

 
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FleshMasher

[13] Hero
When you land RE K or Lethal Hit RE B, and just combo in another RE xD
Would be good against people that hate RE.
Just to annoy the hell out of them.

RE CE combo also very cinematic.

But yeah especially CEs can get old quickly in longer sets.
Unless you don't get hit by it, which is often easier said than done.
RE at least has more different outcomes.
 
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Solaris_142

[01] Neophyte
When you land RE K or Lethal Hit RE B, and just combo in another RE xD
Would be good against people that hate RE.
Just to annoy the hell out of them.

RE CE combo also very cinematic.

But yeah especially CEs can get old quickly in longer sets.
Unless you don't get hit by it, which is often easier said than done.
RE at least has more different outcomes.
If I knew someone was doing something purposefully just to be annoying. I'd discontinue playing with them pretty quickly and find someone that would rather have a good time than be a dick. Or play single player. If it's not fun I'm not going to waste my time. I'm not talking about the annoyance of getting beat by a more skilled player. That's all in the fun, and learning to get better. And trying to find a way to come back and get a win on them if possible. Are you able to set games to private online? Well if it's just two people doing rematches it should stay that way.

Can you set up a private game and send out invites for a few to take turns or something of that nature? Just thinking of another game I have that I can keep locked and only have invited friends in it if so choose, or leave it open for anyone to join. But that is a four player game. So far every time I've watched a stream of Soulcalibur it seems like a player just waits for a match to pop up then they play and wait again until there is another, or they do a rematch. Someone said there was a lobby to meet up with friends. Have to look back on the thread. (Oh yeah, it was Tha_Shogun that replied to my question and mentioned the lobby.) Would enjoy finding a few fun regular people to battle with. I've had to block a couple people before, coming into other games and just doing purposeful asinine things to be a jerk.
 
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FleshMasher

[13] Hero
Well it's in the game so i'd say use it as much as you want if it helps you win.

I'll definately try how many RE i can do in a row just out of curiosity. And for shits and giggles. Yes maybe i'm a dick.

I wouldn't stop using throws if they work, only because it could annoy my opponent.
So why RE.
Trying to impose imaginary rules on which attacks or mechanics are cool or not to use, or how often they are used in a game is the way to scrub land.
If you want to play a game embrace it.
Learn also the mechanics you don't like, maybe ESPECIALLY those because you should want to understand them.
It will annoy you even more if you lose to it because you slept on it.
Getting spammed is, in most cases, not the mistake of the spammer.
 
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Solaris_142

[01] Neophyte
Well it's in the game so i'd say use it as much as you want if it helps you win.

I'll definately try how many RE i can do in a row just out of curiosity. And for shits and giggles. Yes maybe i'm a dick.

I wouldn't stop using throws if they work, only because it could annoy my opponent.
So why RE.
Trying to impose imaginary rules on which attacks or mechanics are cool or not to use, or how often they are used in a game is the way to scrub land.
If you want to play a game embrace it.
Learn also the mechanics you don't like, maybe ESPECIALLY those because you should want to understand them.
It will annoy you even more if you lose to it because you slept on it.
Getting spammed is, in most cases, not the mistake of the spammer.
Well different people have fun in different ways I guess. For instance, even playing against the CPU I don't feel fully satisfied of a win, if I won only because of ring out. Or because I used the critical attack to let the animation do most of the work for me. I almost never use that either in single player unless I hit the button on accident. Sure, winning is always fun. But I'd rather have a fun fight and lose. I don't mind losing at all. Just want it to be a fun fight. So far reversal edge has not been something fun, just something to have to deal with in an otherwise fun game.

I wouldn't get annoyed with another player, however, if they were always trying to ring me out. And I realize a lot of people hope to get an easy win that way. Me, I might have fun sitting on the edge of the ring battling with someone and trying to see If I can be skilled enough to fight on the edge of the ring with them and still avoid them ringing me out. :) Not even try to move away from the edge. I do that with the CPU all the time actually. I like how it looks fighting on the edge like that. Sometimes I survive it, sometime not. Of course it's easy to ring someone out on accident that way too. What I like is when the final hit of the KO sends them out of the ring too. Now that's a satisfying final stroke. :)

Also, in my opinion at least. There is a difference in frustrating someone with your moves, or technique than doing something shitty on purpose just because you know it annoys someone. That's where being a dick comes in.
 
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Ian

[10] Knight
Well it's in the game so i'd say use it as much as you want if it helps you win.

I'll definately try how many RE i can do in a row just out of curiosity. And for shits and giggles. Yes maybe i'm a dick.

I wouldn't stop using throws if they work, only because it could annoy my opponent.
So why RE.
Trying to impose imaginary rules on which attacks or mechanics are cool or not to use, or how often they are used in a game is the way to scrub land.
If you want to play a game embrace it.
Learn also the mechanics you don't like, maybe ESPECIALLY those because you should want to understand them.
It will annoy you even more if you lose to it because you slept on it.
Getting spammed is, in most cases, not the mistake of the spammer.
To me, it isn't fun to just interrupt the cool combos that you're inputting with some pre-animated slowmo sequence where, I can't read what my opponent is doing to appropriately defend myself. I also don't really like Critical Finish moves or whatever they're called, but I did like the "EX" moves in SCV.

I just think fighting games should be more up to the player to be stylish and less up to the game, which I totally have the option to play that way myself, but RE sort of forces me into this stupid guessing game if someone else wants to use it.
 

HappyColour

[10] Knight
I have mainly been playing Libra of Soul mode, and you will reach a point where you need to begin to use all the mechanics in the game to win, reversal edge included.

Since my last post in here, I have finally encountered what would be deemed as reversal edge abuse online, in particular with Talim players who have the ability to cancel their reversal edge into a wind stance, and I will reiterate that I still feel like strategically it is an easy technique to counter IF the opponent is depending on it as their primary strategy. Although I have had abusers take a few rounds in a row off of me, I have literally never lost a battle to one yet as once you figure out the strategy it is straightforward to counter if you can remain calm.

The reason I really like all the changes to the game, I.E. reversal edge and soul charge, is it helps deal with highly aggressive momentum based play.

As a personal preference, I love the feeling of an equal sided duel in which any player could have a chance of winning. Historically, Soulcalibur leaned toward this element because it is quite easy to button mash, but if you had a player who knew their strings they could easily roll through beginners.

Now with reversal edge, soul charge, and an easily inputable critical edge it makes all players a threat as even new players have the ability to push back against momentum, which makes all battles interesting! :) There have been many times I have been hit by a wake up critical-edge from a new player as I ran in forgetting the input was so user-friendly thinking they wouldn't have time for the double quarter circle forward.

I love this! <3 I love how the changes have made a new player a threat to an experienced one like myself. The new mechanics force you to think, and that is what a good fighting game should do!
 

Solaris_142

[01] Neophyte
That's a good point about being able to counter it. The quicker I get, and the easier it is for me to see the move coming, the less it bothers me. Especially on legendary when you need every opening you can get.

Like this. Should have gotten a better combo in there to follow it up with. There is always next time. :)


 
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damn-I-Suck

[12] Conqueror
I also am really glad that they made CE's a single button. There was no practical reason why 236236 had to be in there, only to piss off the people who don't have great execution (me). I always geared towards characters that were easy execution for this reason. SCV forced you to master 236236, and it literally broke my d-pad on the ps3. I honestly thought that I was just doing it wrong all of a sudden. Then someone gave me their old controller because they bought a new one. Low and behold CE's were now easy again.

I used Nightmare as a secondary in that game, sometimes when I tried 236236 I instead got a double grim stride LOL.

I always took issue with execution in general, as an artificial barrier that means nothing. Why would you restrict moves to people except those who spent hours in training mode? This is not exactly an enjoyable use of time instead of, you know, playing the game. Balancing this by making those moves better in some way is not IMO a good game philosophy if you want as many people to play your game as possible.

I always liked IVY, in every game. Always wanted to use her. The reason I didn't? Command grabs. She still has them, unfortunately, but the game is moving in the right direction in general in that regard. Apparently someone at namco also thought it was a good idea to make CE's a single button, it's limited by meter use anyways. I said this would be a good idea in future SC games way back when V just came out. I guess other people feel the same way.
 

Ian

[10] Knight
Execution based characters have their place in a fighting game, even if it's just gameplay variety. I'd save that discussion for another thread.
 

Chronvict

[08] Mercenary
A few people are hating on Reversal Edge which I can kind of see, but I happen to be a fan. Personally I loved Soul Calibur 5, but people that weren't really good at Soul Calibur had a hard time getting into it. The defensive options were good but only at a high level. 4A+B+K but only if you have bar, Just Guard, a few Critical Edge moves. Forget about teaching new players how to do all that. The game was just off putting for people who weren't super dedicated.

I looked forward to this new Soul Calibur bringing more fans to the game and I think it's done a great job of it. I can tell new people to push this button for defense (RE) or this button for super moves (CE) and it makes it so that beginners or intermediate players can be much more competitive and not have to spend hours practicing.

Super Smash Bros. is great because you can watch matches between great people and appreciate the skill, but casual players still really enjoy the game. Soul Calibur 6 did a great job of making Soul Calibur a bit more like that. People can just pick up and fall in love with the game.

About Reversal Edge though, it's definitely not a mindless 50/50, and neither is Rock Paper Scissors. Everyone has tendencies.
You can RE an RE. Not the best punish, I don't do it, but it's basic and it works sometimes and it's funny.
 

darkfender

[10] Knight
I have mainly been playing Libra of Soul mode, and you will reach a point where you need to begin to use all the mechanics in the game to win, reversal edge included.

Since my last post in here, I have finally encountered what would be deemed as reversal edge abuse online, in particular with Talim players who have the ability to cancel their reversal edge into a wind stance, and I will reiterate that I still feel like strategically it is an easy technique to counter IF the opponent is depending on it as their primary strategy. Although I have had abusers take a few rounds in a row off of me, I have literally never lost a battle to one yet as once you figure out the strategy it is straightforward to counter if you can remain calm.

The reason I really like all the changes to the game, I.E. reversal edge and soul charge, is it helps deal with highly aggressive momentum based play.
1) NO you faced players lacking base game knowledge abusing RE. The moment you meet one knowing base game knowledge you will learn why is wrong.

2) no it doesn't.
Thanks to those they can turn frame disadvantage into a 50% mixup…. alternating fast moves to GI and REs.

3) as a proof of that you are describing the average spammer…. AKA a players relying on a couple of strings, incapable of adapting to any counter or even block stuff that ATM is what ranked is made of for the most part.
Thus you just need to read their strategy and they are done.
Unfortunately takes little skill to do adapt a bit with all the panic buttons that SCVI introduced turning it into a casual game no less than stuff like marvel vs capcom.