SC Controversial Topics and General Shitposting Thread

[Rusted Blade]

...the ending (that is some next level out of space insanity), any of it.

Well, like the game's story or not, as you're inclined--and as someone who has not played the game through (like most of the series) in decades, I am not the person to make a staunch defense of the story's merits beyond what I recall of the broadstrokes--but that excerpted comment is clearly not a reasonable complaint about a Final Fantasy game. You travel into a psychotropic interdimensional space/wared reality to do battle with a malovolent being that wants to destroy the world/pull it nto a void in order to become a god over all of existence through vaguely defined process, and all because of original motives that are either incredibly pure or wholly evil for the sake of evil.

Change a word or two here or there, and that's literally the ending to every single game in the mainline series. I mean, seriously: name me one that doesn't conclude with a battle against a super being while flying through some bizarre astral landscape with a cosmic backdrop, and the implication that either beating this thing into a pulp or not will somehow determine whether or not the world gets slurped up into some sort of vortex or become chained the whims of said being for eternity. I'm not saying that's necessarily great storytelling, but it's definitely standard fair for Final Fantasy, and you're either along for that premise or you're not. :D

 

[DanteSC3]

I think you’ve misunderstood my complaint. It’s not that it’s ridiculous, it’s also that it doesn’t make any sense. The entire game is pretty cracked out after Disc 1, but the ending takes the cake at not explaining what in the hell is going on. It’s so bad, it spawned a fan theory that arguably makes more sense than the literal interpretation of events, the Squall’s Dead theory.

 

[Rusted Blade]

I think you’ve misunderstood my complaint. It’s not that it’s ridiculous, it’s also that it doesn’t make any sense.

But...again, how is that categorically different from any game in the series? The very first Final Fantasy ends with a resolution using an even more convoluted cluster of interlocking time paradoxes which do not begin to add up (the causal relationship between Garland/Chaos and the Four Fiends creates way more stress on internal story logic than does the comparatively straightforward relationship between the sorceresses in VIII).

Also, what is so confusing about VIII's ending that it takes a fan theory to straighten it out? Refresh my memory if I am getting any of these details wrong, but Squall does in fact die (at least temporarily) in the end of FFVIII, killed by the physiological stress of the Compression of Time (but not before witnessing Ultimecia's dying essence flee into the past, where Edea takes pity on her, attempts to give her a peaceful passing and ultimately ends up possessed, setting up the entire chain of reaction of the game's events). Rinoa, through a combination of her latent powers as the last Sorceress and her emotional attachment to Squall--and in fulfillment of their thematic promise to one-another--navigates the warped spacetime, finds Squall and revives him. I've always presumed he was in fact dead, and not just badly injured, based on the extent of Rinoa's apparent grief when she finds him and her surprise and joy when she inadvertently restores him. All return home through the generic fantasy rift they entered through, and queue "catch up with the characters some time later" montage, and then rising, intense final credits score.

Again, I'm not saying that it's not all mired in its fair share of silly tropiness or that if you spend more than a moment trying to deconstruct it, it won't betray the usual amount of major continuity problems that arise out of any pop sci-fantasy story employing time travel and reality-bending entities. But again, how is FFVIII a particularly bad or out of place example in the franchise, in this respect? I can't see how it's any different from what was done in earlier or later games in the series, except to say that it goes down a little smoother in this instance because of excellent presentation.

 

[DanteSC3]

At the end of the day, it's very possible that you're right, and that my hate for Final Fantasy VIII is not rational. Your post makes a decent amount of sense, but I did not get that from my playthrough of the game, not when it was new, not when I replayed it, or anywhere inbetween. I find it interesting that you think that Final Fantasy VIII did what it did better than the rest or felt like it was earned, because I really just couldn't disagree with that more. It felt like it was doing too much, trying too hard, and none of it adds up to me. It mostly boils down to the fact that I do not like nor relate to any of the characters, which is a rarity when it comes to RPGs, not just Final Fantasy, but not having a single character for an anchor really detaches you from the story, I feel, and while I still experienced it, it isn't like I lived it in the way that I would if I were truly engaged, and so that leads me to feel about it how I do.

I had played IV, VI, VII, and Tactics prior to playing VIII, for context for my buildup to it, and it was just so departed from the rest of what I'd played, it was extremely offputting. It didn't play in a way that felt natural, it didn't grab me on any particular level, and it was the first in the series I just kind of stepped back and went, wait... what is this? Why is this happening? I should like this, right? I'm supposed to? I don't? Well... alright then. It didn't help that I knew other people at the time that did like/love it, and I couldn't relate to them, and none of them were able to show me whatever it was about it that I was missing, so I guess I'm just the odd one out, here. Thankfully, Final Fantasy IX happened afterward to bring things back into balance, and my faith was restored, at least momentarily. But for me, Final Fantasy VIII was the beginning of my shaky relationship with Square over the franchise, and so because of that, it has a special reserved place in my heart that will carry the weight of everything they did afterward and will continue to do that I don't like.

 

[RyujiSakamoto]

VIII is my first FF game so I have a special place for it in my heart. That being said, I find the cast to be charming and the music to be excellent. I can't really hate the game because I find too much I love in it. In fact basically I can play all of the FF games from 1-12 and be motivated/addicted to story or gameplay. FF13 for me at least a great battle system to motivate me. 11 and 14 are lovely experiences...... but 15? I can't even get past one to four hours of it. Its just so boring and I have no story to latch on to, the combat is just spamming buttons and wildly flailing around. I've even forgotten the anime and movie side stuff because of how boring and useless the material was.

 

[TiraRules]

speak of Final Fantasy, i only played FFX and FFX-2 on PS2

yes FFX-2 thanks to three main chicks

 

[DanteSC3]

I’m in the minority that I vastly prefer X-2 to X, since we’re in the shitposting thread, may as well put that out there. Tidus, Wakka, and Blitzball are just insufferable evils that ruin Final Fantasy X to me on several levels. Every time I tried to like it, one of those three things would stop me, without fail. The combat system was interesting and the Sphere Grid remains the best implementation of similar concepts later that tried and failed to match it, but the game bothers me a lot thanks to the issues I raised above.

Final Fantasy X-2, on the other hand, does all the kinds of stuff that I enjoy. It hearkens back to the Final Fantasy V way of doing things (I mentioned that I loved that one, right?), where it’s a seemingly light-hearted romp that gets dark in the last quarter and that brings with it a pretty strong connection to the characters, seeing them at their best and then at their worst. I love it. It also helps that it is the best use of ATB in the series, with the ability to change jobs mid-battle, as needed, and the whole thing just feels really interactive, more than your guys line up on one side and the other guys line up on the other side and you duke it out. Also, 1000 Words is infinitely superior to Suteki da ne?, I’ll say it confidently.

Edit: Typo fix.

 

[Heniek]

I’m in the minority that I vastly prefer X-2 to X, since we’re in the shitposting thread, may as well put that out there. Tidus, Wakka, and Blitzball are just insufferable evils that ruin Final Fantasy X to me on several levels. Every time I tried to like it, one of those three things would stop me, without fail. The combat system was interesting and the Sphere Grid remains the best implementation of similar concepts later that tried and failed to match it, but the game bothers me a lot thanks to the issues I raised above.

Final Fantasy X-2, on the other hand, does all the kinds of stuff that I enjoy. It hearkens back to the Final Fantasy V way of doing things (I mentioned that I loved that one, right?), where it’s a seemingly light-hearted romp that gets dark in the last quarter and that brings with it a pretty strong connection to the characters, seeing them at their best and then at their worst. I love it. It also helps that it is the best use of ATB in the series, with the ability to change jobs mid-battle, as needed, and the whole thing just feels really interactive, more than your guys line up on one side and the other guys line up on the other side and you duke it out. Also, 1000 Words is infinitely superior to Suteki da ne?, I’ll say it confidently.

Edit: Typo fix.

My first FF game was actually FFX-2 and I did indeed enjoy it a lot. Also funnily enough, because of that when I did played FFX I actually felt like I was thrown into this world just like Tidus was. I personally enjoyed FFX more for story
(really liked the characters) and true sense of journey but still - FFX2 was a lot of fun (Paine is so underrated tho :( )
FF tactics was the best anyways

 

[Tsuribachi]

I personally love FFVIII. Squall is my favorite main character in the series, along with Ramza. Idk if FFT counts but eh

 

[Rusted Blade]

At the end of the day, it's very possible that you're right, and that my hate for Final Fantasy VIII is not rational. Your post makes a decent amount of sense, but I did not get that from my playthrough of the game, not when it was new, not when I replayed it, or anywhere inbetween. I find it interesting that you think that Final Fantasy VIII did what it did better than the rest or felt like it was earned, because I really just couldn't disagree with that more. It felt like it was doing too much, trying too hard, and none of it adds up to me. It mostly boils down to the fact that I do not like nor relate to any of the characters, which is a rarity when it comes to RPGs, not just Final Fantasy, but not having a single character for an anchor really detaches you from the story, I feel, and while I still experienced it, it isn't like I lived it in the way that I would if I were truly engaged, and so that leads me to feel about it how I do.

I had played IV, VI, VII, and Tactics prior to playing VIII, for context for my buildup to it, and it was just so departed from the rest of what I'd played, it was extremely offputting. It didn't play in a way that felt natural, it didn't grab me on any particular level, and it was the first in the series I just kind of stepped back and went, wait... what is this? Why is this happening? I should like this, right? I'm supposed to? I don't? Well... alright then. It didn't help that I knew other people at the time that did like/love it, and I couldn't relate to them, and none of them were able to show me whatever it was about it that I was missing, so I guess I'm just the odd one out, here. Thankfully, Final Fantasy IX happened afterward to bring things back into balance, and my faith was restored, at least momentarily. But for me, Final Fantasy VIII was the beginning of my shaky relationship with Square over the franchise, and so because of that, it has a special reserved place in my heart that will carry the weight of everything they did afterward and will continue to do that I don't like.

Bear in mind I would have been just barely in my twenties when FFVIII came out, so with arguably more forgiving (and certainly less refined) tastes, and that was over twenty years ago, so my memories are somewhat broadstroke--though sometimes my memories from that time in my life are frighteningly more vivid than from one year ago; I'm sure most can relate to that sentiment. But let me tell you about some of what I recall, in any event. I like the subtlety of the plot. It was the first game in the franchise where not everyone in the playable cast had to have a super elaborately exposited-upon backstory (usually unspeakably tragic). The characters were well-developed enough to seem real and three-dimensional (and consequential) but not everyone had lines and lines of hastily inserted dialogue and flashback sequences about their dead parents, children, lovers, siblings, friends, charges, gentle defenders, or dogs. Don't get me wrong, I love the effectiveness of the story in games like IV, VI, and VII that previously hinged on some real tear-jerker moments that inscribed in the minds of the players virtues like devotion, self-sacrafice, dependability, and faithfulness and opened us up to questions about how to deal with loss and what it means to go the extra distance for others. But somewhere between FFVI's one hundred dead loved ones and Aeris kneeling down, knowing she was meeting her fate, you kind of begin to feel like you are being manipulated a little--or probably that's too strong a word...being conditioned to one type of story might be a fairer way to say it.

Enter FFVIII. It's mostly Squall (and to a lessor extent Rinoa)'s story and almost everything else orbits around their perspective. And the relationships are mature, bar some rough translation in places, and with regard to a few more wild and one dimensional characters like Zell. Julia and Laguna are the subject matter of 'Eyes on Me', and they never even end up together--that's a great angle on that story: they both end up with people that they apparently were deeply in love with and they probably wouldn't change a thing if they could, but there's that story of something that almost was that is a part of them forever. What man or woman who has lived doesn't know that story--and typically much better than they know the emotions of having to slit their best friend's throat to prevent him from being tortured to death? They are both good storytelling in the properly prepared context, I just find so much of the exchanges between the characters In VIII to feel organic in that way. Also, and I can't say this enough, but all of this is empowered beautifully by the character and art design and above all by the soundtrack, which makes ever moment--tranquil or intense, elevated or subdued--take life.

It's a tough contest, there's no question about it. There's a reason my "shortlist" has seven games on it. The stories of most of the mainline series were well crafted and ahead of their time, relative to when they were written, but FFVIII is a true, fully-fleshed modern game story--one of the first. And it just edges in ahead of a tight race.

I personally love FFVIII. Squall is my favorite main character in the series, along with Ramza. Idk if FFT counts but eh

Have you played either the Steam or PS4 remasters? I need some feedback on some specific questions.

 

[Ukkesh]

So I was just thinking, season 2 pretty much feels like a fanservice season. If the leaks are trye, we are getting three of the four characters that most people were asking for (RIP Yun). I wonder, if we get a season 3, will, it be similar in that we just get the most requested characters? That'd make sense. Yun, X,X,X.

 

[Ramusu20]

So I was just thinking, season 2 pretty much feels like a fanservice season. If the leaks are trye, we are getting three of the four characters that most people were asking for (RIP Yun). I wonder, if we get a season 3, will, it be similar in that we just get the most requested characters? That'd make sense. Yun, X,X,X.

Yeah, since they need to make sure that an hypothetical Season 3 sells, they need to save a highly popular for it, in this case, Yun-seong.

 

[RyujiSakamoto]

it will be interesting to see what the next dlc ends up being for Tekken. Even if T7 don’t get a season 4 it could possibly lead to soulcalibur 6 getting a similar update/a la carte dlc in the future

Edit: I’ve made a terrible mistake not picking command mode or whatever for difficulty in FF7R. This whole action rpg thing is not working out for me

 

[Ramusu20]

it will be interesting to see what the next dlc ends up being for Tekken. Even if T7 don’t get a season 4 it could possibly lead to soulcalibur 6 getting a similar update/a la carte dlc in the future

Edit: I’ve made a terrible mistake not picking command mode or whatever for difficulty in FF7R. This whole action rpg thing is not working out for me

I thought that too. I was hoping that if Bandai Namco is willing to give more DLC for Tekken 7, there's a chance they do the same for SCVI

 

[Angrel-San]

speak of Final Fantasy, i only played FFX and FFX-2 on PS2

yes FFX-2 thanks to three main chicks

FF10-2 was great.

It actually had challenging gameplay.

Only bad thing was the music wasn't as good and the repetition of locales.

 

[TresDias]

I wouldn't say that it's closer to the traditional Final Fantasy experience at all. In fact, it's so abstract and its own thing that I hesitate to call it Final Fantasy even more than anyone ever did about Final Fantasy XIII. The "Final Fantasy" brand is just such a legacy at this point, where most of its love was attained through their classic older games, that anything modern they try and do is just going to come off as offensive, I think.

It's a fine modern game, from some respects, but tying it to Final Fantasy just seems like it's holding it back more than anything else. Every time that the fans would ask them to include some form of staple from Final Fantasy, like, I don't know, an airship, they would technically add it, but in the most slipshod way possible that makes it seem like they were just like "...FINE!" and did it out of obligation, and then wondered why we weren't happy about it, when they didn't put real effort into doing it, instead staying true to what they wanted in the first place. Which, again, would have been fine if that was their vision from the start, and they didn't let anyone taint it, but it's so middling that I don't understand who exactly it appeals to. Certainly not long-time fans.

::waves::

I'm setting my controller down from playing XV's multiplayer mode for a few minutes to comment that XV, along with VIII and X, is my favorite in the series. Now, being that I've played every mainline entry in the franchise except XI and XIV (and I've at least still watched the story scenes on YouTube for those), and been with the series since 1997, I can recognize that it is by no means arguably the best. Not even close. Not even a little bit.

That distinction probably goes to VI, VII, IX, X, XII, Tactics, or XIV. (Yes, XIV. The story -- especially in the "Shadowbringers" expansion -- is as good as any the FF series has ever done.) Some of these are superior to others in different ways (e.g. battles in IX are as sluggish as driving a filled bathtub), but all of them are truly exceptional on the aggregate.

As for FFVII Remake, as an admin of TheLifestream.net, it is very relevant to my interests and duties to be able to confidently say that it is also exceptional -- at least if you loved the original game. It probably has a lot less to offer newcomers, but I imagine there will still be many of them who fall in love with that world through it.

 

[Rusted Blade]

(Yes, XIV. The story -- especially in the "Shadowbringers" expansion -- is as good as any the FF series has ever done.)

I'm surprised to hear you say that: I don't really play MMOs, but my observation as an outsider looking in is that they typically don't tell for engaging stories in that they have to be told in a fashion that works around the awkwardness of having a generic stand-in central character/mostly silent main protagonist. How do they get around that issue such that you rank it among the finer games in the series for storytelling? Is it just that the world building is so compelling that it makes up for the other shortcomings?

(e.g. battles in IX are as sluggish as driving a filled bathtub)

How to emphasize how much one can only agree with this....Ah, I know.

As for FFVII Remake, as an admin of TheLifestream.net, it is very relevant to my interests and duties to be able to confidently say that it is also exceptional -- at least if you loved the original game.

Does the combat system eventually become fairly intuitive, with good flow after a while? Because I was really finding it more than a bit clunky and difficult to play in a tactically efficient manner in the demo.

 

[RyujiSakamoto]

I'm surprised to hear you say that: I don't really play MMOs, but my observation as an outsider looking in is that they typically don't tell for engaging stories in that they have to be told in a fashion that works around the awkwardness of having a generic stand-in central character/mostly silent main protagonist. How do they get around that issue such that you rank it among the finer games in the series for storytelling? Is it just that the world building is so compelling that it makes up for the other shortcomings?




Does the combat system eventually become fairly intuitive, with good flow after a while? Because I was really finding it more than a bit clunky and difficult to play in a tactically efficient manner in the demo.

I hope the combat becomes intuitive because I feel like the worlds most absolute moron after playing against the guard scorpion. What was a simple battle in the original had me doing single digit damage in the remake. I was getting absolutely wrecked due to me running out of MP. I didn't die but I had to shower myself in potions...

The combat hasn't really "clicked" yet. I am considering restarting the game and picking the menu based battle but I've heard its basically easy mode/brain dead mode so I might just keep going.

I at least wish the party AI used healing/potions like in FFXII and FFXIII when you aren't controlling them...

 

[TresDias]

I'm surprised to hear you say that: I don't really play MMOs, but my observation as an outsider looking in is that they typically don't tell for engaging stories in that they have to be told in a fashion that works around the awkwardness of having a generic stand-in central character/mostly silent main protagonist.

In general, I agree with that.

How do they get around that issue such that you rank it among the finer games in the series for storytelling? Is it just that the world building is so compelling that it makes up for the other shortcomings?

The world-building is a big part of it, genuinely compelling villains another. Seriously, the main villain of "Shadowbringers" might be the best villain the franchise has ever seen.

And even with the silent protagonist, there's just plainly damn smart writing and finessing of the finer points. It's one of those things where you don't have to say it adds up to something greater than the sum of its parts. Its parts are already legitimately dope.

Does the combat system eventually become fairly intuitive, with good flow after a while? Because I was really finding it more than a bit clunky and difficult to play in a tactically efficient manner in the demo.

Mastering the shortcuts helps a lot with the flow, but honestly, the problem most of us have had with the combat (I include myself in this) is mistaking the game for an action RPG. It's really not.

It's a sort of hybrid of ARPG and ATB. Look at it more as an evolved version of the ATB system the original game had, just where the characters and enemies are always in movement and performing whittling damage while looking for your input to effect the decisive moves.

If you approach it the same way as FFXV (which I did), you will get demolished (which I also did).

 

[Rusted Blade]

I hope the combat becomes intuitive because I feel like the worlds most absolute moron after playing against the guard scorpion. What was a simple battle in the original had me doing single digit damage in the remake. I was getting absolutely wrecked due to me running out of MP. I didn't die but I had to shower myself in potions...

Ditto, and I'm by no means an RPG/action RPG novice. I just found the entire thing cumbersome, to the point where I was putting in one of the worst performances in terms of effective and efficient combat and use of resources that I can ever recall making since I first picked up Final Fantasy in..1990, I want to say? I was quite low on resources towards the end and was having a hard time keeping both characters up and active to the extent that I could continue to get decent attacks in during the windows available. I really hope it's just a matter of my not having had enough time in the demo for everything to "click", because if the whole experience was fairly close to that level of awkwardness, I'd have trouble getting through that game, no matter how hard they nailed every other aspect of recreating that classic.

Mastering the shortcuts helps a lot with the flow, but honestly, the problem most of us have had with the combat (I include myself in this) is mistaking the game for an action RPG. It's really not.

It's a sort of hybrid of ARPG and ATB. Look at it more as an evolved version of the ATB system the original game had, just where the characters and enemies are always in movement and performing whittling damage while looking for your input to effect the decisive moves.

Well, I definitely perceived it as an attempt at such a hybrid, but however one classifies it, I have to wonder if the ultimate response players and critics will have is that it actually combines aspects of both traditional RPGs and action RPGs in such a way that its not really intuitive or conductive to either good ATB strategy or good ARPG flow. But it sounds like you are maybe saying that it is in fact just a matter of time and that ultimately it feels fluid, strategic, and enjoyable?