SC4 Character Ranking List?

W

wing_zero

[09] Warrior
I'm thinking of making a character ranking list. A lot like this (yes, I'm borrowing the format from MYK):

http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=108269

Each character would get scored on the following:

Punishment: 3/3
Offense: 5/5
Post-GI:3/3
Whiff Punishing/Spacing: 5/5
Keepout/Panic: 4/4
Wakeup: 3/3
Damage: 5/5


for a grand total of 28 points.

This is in the early stages so let me know what you guys think in terms of changing the score or adding categories. Personally, I think that outside of changing the whiff punishment category to spacing (or having a combined category for both), everything else should be unchanged. I'm also going to need help with writeups on certain characters, so post up what you think your character's score is and why. Once I get permission from MYK to use the disclaimer, I'll start it off in a new thread. ALL CHARACTERS will get included eventually, so be patient!

Here's how a writeup should look (TAKEN FROM MYK'S T6 CHARACTER RANKING LIST)

Leo

Punishment: 4.5/5
Standing
-10: 1,4 (25 dmg, +5)
-13: uf1,2 (29 dmg, KND)
-14: f2,2 (35 dmg, +6)
-15: df2 (launch)_uf4 (launch, preferable for moves that leaves opponents in FC, since df2 doesn't launch FC opponents)
-17(far): f1+2 (32 dmg, KND)

FC
-11: ws4 (15 dmg)
-12: ws1+2 (22 dmg, + techable ass flop)
-13: ws31 (juggle)
-15: uf4 (launcher)
-16: ws2 (launcher)
-23: ufn4 (launcher)

Other than not having a great -12 standing punisher, in EVERY other situation she has top notch punishment that definitely make up for it. With a df2 with insane range it's easy to punish some moves at -15 with decent pushback. f22 coming in at 14f is good when you know what to punish with it, things like Zaf's ws2 from nearly any range is punishable with this move. Her ws punishers are definitely one of the best. Everything she has in this category is top notch.

Offense: 5/5
Strong mixups and pokes all around.
For standing mixups she has a very long range sweep db41 for 28 dmg that will always keep you on your toes. And for the mid mixup you have uf21 for a small juggle which is semi-safe (jab-able inbetween), or ff43 for a huge juggle and only risking -13, or just doing ff4 by itself and from certain ranges/angles characters jab punishers will whiff, or db1+2,1 at the wall while only risking -10 and getting a 44 dmg wall splat NC string X(.
From FC she has another long ranged sweep, FC df3. In the open she gets oki, while at the wall she gets another free FC df3, and it's only -14. So most characters can't even get a launcher off this sweep. With ws2 being the mid launcher mixup, and it's only -13 on block so it's not too bad. At the wall FC df3 for the low and uf3 for a safe wall splat mid is a decent mixup.
Other than the real risky stuff she still has solid pokes all around. df2+3 for a +5 high crushing low, that give a full juggle on CH. Same goes for her b1+4 high/low move, -14 on block, +2 on hit, but on CH your at +16 and it's possible to do a qcf31(same as ws31) into a juggle. Also with a plethora of quick simple mid pokes all around. She does have a very small tracking issue, but with a close range df2 that you can make track both ways not to big of a deal. Also you can dash in and then use pokes to realign yourself to compensate for her small tracking issues, and if you're too lazy for that, you can always just use her good ranged df3 mid tracking move.

Whiff Punishment: 4/5
Quick whiffs she has uf12, f22, both high though. df2 with the range of nearly Jack's DR df2 range, this move is IDEAL for whiff punishing, sadly it does not launch crouchers, but she has a quick uf4 but it has way less range. For bigger long ranged whiffs you always have your nice ff43 which leads into ridiculous damage.

Keep Out/Panic: 4/4
She's got a long ranged magic 4 into f2, d1~d into good oki. 2,2 for like a quick 10f CH hunt, -15 though. df2 for a long range mid keep out. CH d1, good CH hunting mid tool, and CH df2+4 for a good CH hunting high crushing low tool. CH db4 gives a full juggle as well, but really risky. And she also has a hopkick for those dyer panic mode situations. She even has her own little AOP type stance called, BOK. BOK2 is a safe high crushing, sometimes mid crushing launcher that leads into insane damage. She also has like a GS kinda throw, when her back is at the wall she can do her ff1+2 throw, and if you don't break it, you take full damage from the throw and she gets a wall splat into a full combo, nasty.

Wake Ups: 2/3
All her spike enders dont give any floater options. Other than that she has a solid 50/50 games, just no float into re-B! crap. Her throw oki is ok just off her 1 throw, giving her a free d4, or other stronger oki options. Rollback catches are pretty much no problem for this girl. Other than the first thing I've mentioned, she'd be a 3.

Damage: 5/5
I'll just list a couple and you'll get the idea.

Without Walls
- df2, 324~df, uf1, db22, B!, ssl, df1+2,1+2,qcf2 = 69 dmg
- uf4, f4~df, qcf1, b21, db22, B!, ssl, bbp = 72 dmg (73 dmg off df2, 74 dmg off ws2, 75 dmg off ff4)
- ff43, df1, b21, 1, db22, B!, b2,1+2 = 69 dmg
- CH d1~d, ws4, f4~df, uf1, db22, B!, df1+2,1+2,qcf2 = 72 dmg
- CH df2+3, DF n ws4, f4~df, uf1, db22, B!, df1+2,1+2,qcf2 = 73 dmg
- CH db4, b21, f4~df, uf1, b2 1+2, B!, df1+2,1+2,qcf2 = 71 dmg
- CH b1+4, qcf31, qcf n ws4, d42 = 89 dmg (extremely hard from start to finish, but possible)

With Walls
- df2, 324~df, uf1, b2 1+2, B!, f4~qcf1, W!, fc2, ws14<1 = 88 dmg
- ff43, df1, b21, 1, db22, B!, f4~qcf1, W!, uf1, uf1, f1+2 = 98 dmg

Yeah I think any can get the picture. Her weakest full launcher can do 73 dmg? Ridiculous.

________________________________________________________________________


Let me know what you think.
 
so this is a pseudo-tier list? it would make more sense than the other one at least, with some concrete details to back it up.
 
Punishment: 3/3
Offense: 5/5
Post-GI:3/3
Whiff Punishing/Spacing: 5/5
Keepout/Panic: 4/4
Wakeup: 3/3
Damage: 5/5

The problem is that these categories are of debatable importance, and also change in importance based on the matchups a character faces. For example, players who value okizeme highly would probably want more than 3 points allotted for wakeup.

More importantly, a GLARING omission in this list is anti step. If you don't have that category the rankings will be totally innaccurate.
 
What about saftey, ring out ability, throw game and oki? SC has far too many variables to really make a definative list for each character. I mean, a lot of what I just listed has certain degrees to them and things that will look good on paper, but not translate well into application. How can we apply those to a number based ranking system?

Also what does 'panic' entail as a category?

Is our aim here just to increase community awareness on the strengths of certain characters? Or to develop a list for people to scale of work they will have to put in to win? Or will it be open to interpratation?

cha cha
 
AkazukinChaCha said:
What about saftey, ring out ability, throw game and oki? SC has far too many variables to really make a definative list for each character. I mean, a lot of what I just listed has certain degrees to them and things that will look good on paper, but not translate well into application. How can we apply those to a number based ranking system?

Also what does 'panic' entail as a category?

Is our aim here just to increase community awareness on the strengths of certain characters? Or to develop a list for people to scale of work they will have to put in to win? Or will it be open to interpratation?

cha cha
Click to expand...

You have some good points, cha. I will try to answer as best I can:

Concerning Safety, Ringout Ability, Throw Game, and Oki- I think the first three can be condensed in the offense category, since safety, RO Ability, and throw game are all part of a good offense. Oki does have it's own category, y'know (wakeup) :)

Keepout/Panic: This category means two things -

1)Keep Out: How well can a character keep you at their optimal range
2)Panic: What can the character do to keep their opponents from going on the offense (i.e. Kilik's Asura, Cass' 2B+K, Asta's 6K)

My aim concerning this ranking list is to mainly provide detailed, concrete information on every character's strengths/weaknesses, so more people can be aware of what each character is capable of.

Tiamat said:
Punishment: 3/3
Offense: 5/5
Post-GI:3/3
Whiff Punishing/Spacing: 5/5
Keepout/Panic: 4/4
Wakeup: 3/3
Damage: 5/5

The problem is that these categories are of debatable importance, and also change in importance based on the matchups a character faces. For example, players who value okizeme highly would probably want more than 3 points allotted for wakeup.

More importantly, a GLARING omission in this list is anti step. If you don't have that category the rankings will be totally innaccurate.
Click to expand...

The characters are going to be scored be scored based on their overall ability; for example, if I wanted to play Hilde and I wanted a detailed rundown on her strengths/weaknesses, I should be able to come to this ranking list and find out why. Hilde's score wouldn't change just because she couldn't do certain things against certain characters (if that makes any sense).

Concerning how the categories are debatable - I'll comment on this later; I'm still thinking about this one :)

I do agree that Anti step should be added. Thanks for reminding me about that one.
 
post GI should be taken out and ring out should take its place, for one I dont really care if someone has a scary move post GI because all things can be GI'd afterward and then if you dont do a move post GI and wait for the opponent to do so then it just becomes a guessing game which every character can do.

Keepout and panic should just be a part of spacing and whiff punishing because there are few characters who have more than one panic button

another option to consider would be SG damage

I would just keep it simple (btw to those questioning this thread he is basically doing what slips did for tekken and to tell ya the truth it sorta did help, dont take it as is rather than guide lines)

Damage
spacing(whiff punishing, keep away)
Ring out ability
punishing
saftey
oki
SG damage

These would be my things to look out for
 
I second removing Post-GI.

It's just a matter of using either an <i20 move to hit before a block, or a >i20 move to punish a whiffed GI. (or doing nothing.)
 
Post-GI is a good item to rank. There are some characters that get far better "free" damage post-GI (if they are not re-GI'd) than other characters. If you are fighting a character with poor "free" GI damage, then you can relax a bit more on trying to re-GI by simply blocking and breaking throws. Lizardman, as an example, is able to get in some really good "free" damage if his opponent doesn't re-GI, but Talim can not.
 
Keep it up Wing Zero I always wished someone would copy the way tekkenzaibatsu did it. If anything this is a better way to form a tier list than all BS that goes on in the other thread.
 
some characters have way better post GI mixup than others

not as important as say, anti-step (which should be a 5 point value)
 
wing_zero said:
You have some good points, cha. I will try to answer as best I can:

Concerning Safety, Ringout Ability, Throw Game, and Oki- I think the first three can be condensed in the offense category, since safety, RO Ability, and throw game are all part of a good offense. Oki does have it's own category, y'know (wakeup) :)
Click to expand...

I don't agree, ring out ability is highly versatile, and can be used as a defensive counter measure almost definately, in every situation. Safety is also not applicable to offense since it's equally important in retaliation and mix ups, as well as counter attempts. Saftey, in my opinion, applies to all categories... yet should be designated on it's own or part of some risk/reward category.

Also where do we put Soul Gauge damage ability? Some characters are clearly better than others at getting you flashing fast, but can't possibly be considered to have a good 'offense'; ie: see Seong Mi-na

Keepout/Panic: This category means two things -

1)Keep Out: How well can a character keep you at their optimal range
2)Panic: What can the character do to keep their opponents from going on the offense (i.e. Kilik's Asura, Cass' 2B+K, Asta's 6K)
Click to expand...

There has to be a better word than panic.... however, I cannot think of one, other than...juxtaposition...or something >_<

My aim concerning this ranking list is to mainly provide detailed, concrete information on every character's strengths/weaknesses, so more people can be aware of what each character is capable of.
Click to expand...

That is a great concept. However (I rarely check TZ anymore so forgive) how does Tekken's rankings deal with poor match ups vs statistically inferior opponents?

cha cha
 
thats the thing cha cha, these rankings should only be looked at if a good player is playing them
 
I was talking about characters 9_9, as in a character having a poor match up vs. another character who has 'lesser' statistics, should that just be a side note or just taken into a account during the ranking? (ie. Rock is pretty good vs Kilik match up wise, Mina is good vs Algol ect ect., yet they willbe ranked far lower)
 
Astaroth

Damage: 10/10
Ringout: 10/10
Post-GI: 9.5/10
Wake-Up: 9/10
Spacing: 8/10
SG dmg: 7/10
Punishment: 7/10
Saftety: 6/10
Speed: 4/10
 
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