Williamsova
[10] Knight
nerf Gnatsu and Nightmare pl0x. Also buff Viola and Ivy <3
SCV Tier List
- Thread starter Makatak
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Zero_Soulreaver
[09] Warrior
Lmao Nightmare... fast? Your joking right? You can hit him out of most of his moves at point blank range.
Sure he's powerful but he focuses mainly on long/mid range. If you hound him to death he can't really move.
Natsu is good, but she also can be punished easily. She isn't strong enough to push someone back if they are on block. A lot of her attacks are so easy to spot if you ever played Taki you know this by now. Most of her attacks rely on set things hitting leading into others. The regular moves she has can be avoided if you read her right.
Xiba is decent but he suffers the same way Nightmare does. His range is a weakness because he has to be a certain area away from you at most times. He's not that fast at all, he just has good mid range pokes.
Viola doesn't need a damage buff, that would be silly. If they gave her a damage buff they'd have to nerf something to balance it. She is balanced as it is, does crappy damage for a reason because she has some sick setups and good combos. If she had more damage it wouldn't be very fair. The whole point of playing Viola is to learn her traps and how/when to use them. She is very technical and if you put in the work she can be very good with her bad damage and all.
Sure he's powerful but he focuses mainly on long/mid range. If you hound him to death he can't really move.
Natsu is good, but she also can be punished easily. She isn't strong enough to push someone back if they are on block. A lot of her attacks are so easy to spot if you ever played Taki you know this by now. Most of her attacks rely on set things hitting leading into others. The regular moves she has can be avoided if you read her right.
Xiba is decent but he suffers the same way Nightmare does. His range is a weakness because he has to be a certain area away from you at most times. He's not that fast at all, he just has good mid range pokes.
Viola doesn't need a damage buff, that would be silly. If they gave her a damage buff they'd have to nerf something to balance it. She is balanced as it is, does crappy damage for a reason because she has some sick setups and good combos. If she had more damage it wouldn't be very fair. The whole point of playing Viola is to learn her traps and how/when to use them. She is very technical and if you put in the work she can be very good with her bad damage and all.
Pantocrator
[10] Knight
Hard to say. They are really similar at close range. But at mid range Siegfried is faster.
ShenYuan
[10] Knight
I think omega is better than pyrrah. Also, sieg isn't lowest tier. I feel Lei xia is really bad. At the moment I think Xiba and Natsu are the best.
crow_winters
[11] Champion
I don't think any of those characters need to be nerfed. I think you need to be buffed.
The only characters you can really make arguments for being too strong are a.Pat and.. well, to a degree Natsu, but I'm okay with Natsu for the most part, I guess I just want to see combos with CE do a little less damage. a.Pat would be fine too if he didn't have -8 BS on his whole movelist. His only weakness is not everyone is awesome enough to play him.
Di_PL
[10] Knight
Lei is OK (at most) but her damage output is quite low. Also 11A instead of 1A input for one of her most important moves in previous games is a big nerf because of SCV's buffering system.
If you are looking for a weak character, check Aeon's FD - even his pokes are punishable, e.g. 3A is -14 on block.
Zero_Soulreaver
[09] Warrior
Leixia is really good if you know how to get her moving. Her and Voldo are so good because of their movement which can be used to dodge and punish many moves.
I think Natsu is top tier, but it doesn't mean she's broken or impossible to beat. I honestly don't think any character is overpowered or unbeatable in this game, it's pretty balanced.
Their really is no "worst" character for me. I think Z.W.E.I is kinda bad, but still he can be decent if used right.
I think Natsu is top tier, but it doesn't mean she's broken or impossible to beat. I honestly don't think any character is overpowered or unbeatable in this game, it's pretty balanced.
Their really is no "worst" character for me. I think Z.W.E.I is kinda bad, but still he can be decent if used right.
ShenYuan
[10] Knight
I think ZWEI is high tier.
Also, everyone can move and step and evade. No one's particularly special in that department. The only distinction lies in the damage of the whiff punisher.
LX is bad because her defensive options though good are extremely poor; they work well but are extremely punishable. Obviously namco wanted her to specialise in the evasion... unfortunately their execution seems inadequate. Whats worse is her damage. Its really bad.
Also, everyone can move and step and evade. No one's particularly special in that department. The only distinction lies in the damage of the whiff punisher.
LX is bad because her defensive options though good are extremely poor; they work well but are extremely punishable. Obviously namco wanted her to specialise in the evasion... unfortunately their execution seems inadequate. Whats worse is her damage. Its really bad.
LP
Premium Member
I think ZWEI, Nightmare, Tira, and Yoshi are much better than you guys are giving them credit for. Just wait until people who naturally flow with them figure them out. I also think Asta still be a much bigger threat than before.
Seriously, though, just for preliminary thoughts on the game: I think that this game is going to have much, much tighter tier lists than anyone anticipates. The damage, having to commit to options, movement, and pace of the game has changed so much and think I have an idea of how I think high level play is going to be. I think matchups are going to play a much more important role than ever before in any SC game.
Also, I intend to make Viola seem broken. Think I'm already understanding quite a bit about her.
I really can't understate how much injustice I think those four characters are being done!
Seriously, though, just for preliminary thoughts on the game: I think that this game is going to have much, much tighter tier lists than anyone anticipates. The damage, having to commit to options, movement, and pace of the game has changed so much and think I have an idea of how I think high level play is going to be. I think matchups are going to play a much more important role than ever before in any SC game.
Also, I intend to make Viola seem broken. Think I'm already understanding quite a bit about her.
I really can't understate how much injustice I think those four characters are being done!
Zero_Soulreaver
[09] Warrior
Not talking about movement as in regular step and evade. I'm talking about stances, moves which can cause a dodge. For instance Voldo can dodge many moves if he goes into Frenzy Dive or Mantis Claw. They have sorta "dance moves" that can evade as well as attack during many tight situations.
This is why people hate Voldo in the first place he has so many tricky attack movements that he can be untouchable if used right. LX is very similar to that kinda "dancing" style.
This is why people hate Voldo in the first place he has so many tricky attack movements that he can be untouchable if used right. LX is very similar to that kinda "dancing" style.
ShenYuan
[10] Knight
Thats' fair then. I do not disagree there :)
GhostTear
[13] Hero
If you don't mind me asking what is DNS B? I tried looking for it in the basic notations and terminology but couldn't find it.
SnowflakeSVK
[09] Warrior
Double Nemesis Step B. 236236B in notation. It's an Oprah specific move, so it wouldn't be in the terminology thread.
On topic - a tier list in the Casual section of the forum seems like an oxymoron, if you are intending on a true discussion using the actual definition of a tier list. As seen by coolfighter1993 over there. If you want a discussion of 'pubstomp' characters, then this thread is perfectly positioned, carry on.
Yama
[09] Warrior
Natsu is very good, far from busted or in a tier of her own though. Besides, it's much too early yet to make such rash claims. Funny because this is nothing new, SCII Taki (or even SCIII/IV, just not to the same extent) in the right hands is a problem and always consists of overwhelming pressure. As always, when scrubs are pressured they simply don't understand it nor try to figure it out. Sad thing is, Japanese Calibur forums are discussing strategies while many others are crying for nerfs two days into the game. These are the people that waste a spot in the community sadly.
Allow me to conjure up some older examples as to what made Taki so good and why players have to relax in regards to Natsu, at least this early into the game.
Some things not present in SCV that made SCII Taki an amazing character:
In direct comparison, Natsu's PO is unsafe though she does have more options (outside of cancelling) to mix up. Her exorcism is about the same speed, though far less safe. Her B normals have far less priority and get stuffed on most occasions, not to mention her BBB cancel the third B mix up is gone as she can only do BB now. BK PO replaces it and BB4A+BA to cancel makes it "safer." Needless to say, her normal pressure into PO's up close are severely nerfed.
Also her 8 B+K is just flat out bad. While Taki's was a hard roll and her position was reflective, Natsu's is an instant transmission. This sounds like a buff as it removes the roll animation, but the teleport is not instant and instead of her position being reflected on screen, she stays in front of the enemy (prone to being hit) until the teleport is complete.
A good Taki in SCII was amazing, to the point I pinned her as the best character in the game based on my own tournament winnings (CTF weeklys, The Break occasionally). Laughably, she was considered upper mid tier. Now, this direct comparison in no way covers the tools Natsu has over SCII Taki (as there are many), though I'm trying to get across two main points. SCII Taki had the same effect of dominance in the right hands and was considered mid tier, she was beatable. Players simply need to learn how to and complaining day two is not the way. Second, I still think SCII Taki has a better pressure game at the highest potential level with many more 'make it safe' options. So if this character wasn't bitched at, Natsu is not the place to start.
As far as Natsu herself, she is very good. Like I said, I could also comment on tools she has that Taki does not, but these have been covered for the most part. She can apply similar pressure and mix up (perhaps more eventually), but in a different manner with some similar flashes of the past.
In the end, less talk and more play is the way to beat anything. But I stand by my statement in that Natsu is not the place to start bitching, at least not at this point.
Awesome analysis, haha. Just wow. I hope Namco continues to listen to Japanese Calibur forums who discuss strategy and not the tripe written on NA boards as such.
Allow me to conjure up some older examples as to what made Taki so good and why players have to relax in regards to Natsu, at least this early into the game.
Some things not present in SCV that made SCII Taki an amazing character:
- PO cancelable by using EXC super cancel
- A and B strings could be canceled into each other and consisted of three hits, the third being able to be canceled into anything including PO stance
- Priority of her normals
- 8 B+K was very good
In direct comparison, Natsu's PO is unsafe though she does have more options (outside of cancelling) to mix up. Her exorcism is about the same speed, though far less safe. Her B normals have far less priority and get stuffed on most occasions, not to mention her BBB cancel the third B mix up is gone as she can only do BB now. BK PO replaces it and BB4A+BA to cancel makes it "safer." Needless to say, her normal pressure into PO's up close are severely nerfed.
Also her 8 B+K is just flat out bad. While Taki's was a hard roll and her position was reflective, Natsu's is an instant transmission. This sounds like a buff as it removes the roll animation, but the teleport is not instant and instead of her position being reflected on screen, she stays in front of the enemy (prone to being hit) until the teleport is complete.
A good Taki in SCII was amazing, to the point I pinned her as the best character in the game based on my own tournament winnings (CTF weeklys, The Break occasionally). Laughably, she was considered upper mid tier. Now, this direct comparison in no way covers the tools Natsu has over SCII Taki (as there are many), though I'm trying to get across two main points. SCII Taki had the same effect of dominance in the right hands and was considered mid tier, she was beatable. Players simply need to learn how to and complaining day two is not the way. Second, I still think SCII Taki has a better pressure game at the highest potential level with many more 'make it safe' options. So if this character wasn't bitched at, Natsu is not the place to start.
As far as Natsu herself, she is very good. Like I said, I could also comment on tools she has that Taki does not, but these have been covered for the most part. She can apply similar pressure and mix up (perhaps more eventually), but in a different manner with some similar flashes of the past.
In the end, less talk and more play is the way to beat anything. But I stand by my statement in that Natsu is not the place to start bitching, at least not at this point.
Awesome analysis, haha. Just wow. I hope Namco continues to listen to Japanese Calibur forums who discuss strategy and not the tripe written on NA boards as such.
Mojo
[10] Knight
Agreed. The arguments presented for the mentioned characters say (to me): "I get beaten a lot with these characters, therefore I don't like them and they need to be nerfed."
Following that type of reasoning I would say that Siegfried needs a nerf because I get beaten too much by Siegfried. However, the reason that I am getting beaten by Siegfried is because I've never gotten to know the character well enough to fight against him properly.
So, I am not saying that Sieg needs a nerf. I am saying...
Cry moar.
Benjeezy
[12] Conqueror
Your line of reasoning is sound, and therefore OP. BRB, requesting nerf
Mojo
[10] Knight
Shit. After I've put so much effort into trying to make people think I'm low tier...I hope I don't turn out broken and get banned. :-(
minhtam1638
[08] Mercenary
Yeah, I know, not really my best analysis.
Kagutsuchi
[09] Warrior
As a casual player, I never put any stock into tier lists personally. They just aren't really relevant to most players, and I don't particularly find theorycraft "fun."
That said I always like to see what characters/players perform well in competitive play. If anything, I'm very "anti-tier list" because I want to see underrated characters do well. God I love videos of Kura playing Talim on SC4, for example.
Only time will tell how SC5 turns out.
FYI I've been a Mitsurugi player since SC2, and his SC5 version is growing on me despite initially being very sore at the loss of Relic and other favorite moves. I'll keep playing him even if other people think he's low tier on some technical basis.
That said I always like to see what characters/players perform well in competitive play. If anything, I'm very "anti-tier list" because I want to see underrated characters do well. God I love videos of Kura playing Talim on SC4, for example.
Only time will tell how SC5 turns out.
FYI I've been a Mitsurugi player since SC2, and his SC5 version is growing on me despite initially being very sore at the loss of Relic and other favorite moves. I'll keep playing him even if other people think he's low tier on some technical basis.
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