SCV Yoshimitsu Q&A and General Discussion

DrDogg said:
Please enlighten me on Yoshi's mix-ups. At the highest level of play I find it difficult to open up an opponent.

- DGF: No mix-up. Good players will block all options on reaction and getting DGF K blocked means eating upwards of 50% depending on the match-up.
- SDGF: No mix-up. It's very easy to step or block all options out of this.
- IND/MED: Every character can interrupt every option from this, on reaction.

iFC 3K is about his only decent low and that doesn't really lead to a ton of damage or even tech crouch. Plus, at max range you can only mix it up with 4KB, but if that's stepped you're in trouble.

I've come to accept Yoshi as he is, but I still think he's severely lacking in this game... especially against characters who can keep him out.



Unless the opponent uses a decent vertical, in which case it hits Yoshi before he can get into SDGF. Or they just step SDGF B on reaction.
Click to expand...

-DGF: Like I said earlier - use 6A+B to get people to stand and make them think about the mixup. I play constantly against top Texas players - Jop, IceColdEdge, Jaeger, Eddy Pistons, LinkRKC. And I can still make them guess a 50/50 in DGF with this.
-SDGF: A or 2A+B if they step, unblockable if they don'tt? I don't see how he has no mixup from this...its the same as SC4...
-IND/MED: Yea not super strong but used sparingly it has it's place.

I don't know what you want from Yoshi.. of course he has a hard time getting in.. That's the challenge of playing the character - but he has everything he needs to do it and when he does get in - he's really strong... It sounds to me like you want Yoshi to be SC4 Hilde and Amy combined..
 
If it's just DGF B_K mixup though, it's possible to option select it (at least from what I have heard, all Boston SCers can block them w/ ease). What makes this difficult is when you start mixing up other things to complicate the simple "duck then stand" method. I'm pretty sure that DGF mixup is viable once you place enough distraction to the equation.

I'm currently working on a DGF~FLE mixup against opp getting up from the ground. It seems pretty interesting atm...
 
Just to add - against Pat there it would have been useful to have used better moves for the guard break damage. You threw out the CE and that got the break which was a bit of a waste of meter when there are meterlesss tools you can use to break guard. Also, good move after CE is 8A+B G, because the CE leaves you at good spacing for it. This would have been especially useful in your situation as you had him at the edge, he was unable to tech backwards and it seems this move catches rollers quite well and has good recovery.. you probably would have taken the round with that.
 
funkpanda said:
-DGF: Like I said earlier - use 6A+B to get people to stand and make them think about the mixup. I play constantly against top Texas players - Jop, IceColdEdge, Jaeger, Eddy Pistons, LinkRKC. And I can still make them guess a 50/50 in DGF with this.
-SDGF: A or 2A+B if they step, unblockable if they don'tt? I don't see how he has no mixup from this...its the same as SC4...
-IND/MED: Yea not super strong but used sparingly it has it's place.

I don't know what you want from Yoshi.. of course he has a hard time getting in.. That's the challenge of playing the character - but he has everything he needs to do it and when he does get in - he's really strong... It sounds to me like you want Yoshi to be SC4 Hilde and Amy combined..
Click to expand...

SDGF can be stepped/blocked on reaction (same as SC4). Most people step first, then block if they see you coming down with something other than the unblockable. It's not hard. Also, the only time IND/MED is useful is on wake-up, and even then a lot of characters have options for all three attacks.

I don't understand why you think I want some super OP Yoshi. I said nothing to indicate that, and it's actually insulting that you would say something of that nature.

SC5 Yoshi is no where near as good as SC4 Yoshi. You can't debate that. SC4 Yoshi was good, but certainly not SC4 Hilde+Amy. The fact that Yoshi is lacking in SC5 is a common opinion, and many Yoshi players have dropped him because of it. I simply said he's lacking and asked for clarification on these mix-ups and you translate that as me wanting super OP Yoshi? >_>

I was just hoping for a little love from this patch, but instead he got nerfed. I would've been happy if Yoshi got Tekken moves on the timer again.
 
Funkypanda makes good points.


Dr.dogg

Once yoshi is up close he has good tools. Fast AA, pokes that give good enough advantage to continue his mix up game, and good damage on throws. FC 3k may not lead to a ton of damage but it serves it purpose because when yoshi gets that knockdown he has the advantage to keep mixing up. FC3k when combined with good spacing, isn't a bad whiff punisher either. Sure his stance stuff can be dealt with but he has good tools outside of stances to pressure opponents once he is in. Timing is everything, if you mix up the timing on the stance mix ups they become more effective I've found, and having the special throws out of those stances just adds another layer of stuff.

Yoshi might have some issues getting in but good ol JG can take care of some of that. Because of JG nothing is sacred in this game especially if you know the opponents attack patterns.
 
I don't believe it was tighter in 4 at all. I land it the same in either game. I think everyone has just improved from practice. It's still noticeably tighter than Parting Thrust for sure.
 
DrDogg is right IMO. Once you learn the match-up (ALL high level players will) stances become highly obsolete and react-able, no matter how much you mix-it-up. You might hit your opponent from stance once or twice but considering you'll be punished on every other opportunity the risk-reward becomes way skewed against you. Specially since you can interrupt a lot of his stance transitions.

jG benefits all characters so its not really a positive or a "problem solver" for Yoshi. Yes FC 3K is great and so is his AA, and 33B, B+K but you have to realize your picking at straws here. Other characters have way more tools than Yoshi. Im not saying he is bottom, but he has to work that much harder for a win.

I wish they would have made iMCF i9 again, fixed earslicer (leave it just as hard but make it so you can leave A pressed) and given back his Tekken moves. That would have been more than enough for me to main him again.
 
Really there's nothing to learn about his stances at this point IMO. They're largely unchanged so if the shit is still working it's cause it's a solid mix up game because people have been seeing it since 3.

FC 3K is great because people assume you want in. But you can nail them from a good range with a virtually unreactable low for 40 damage!

MCF is i9 from a crouch now and you don't have to RCC to get the unshakable stun. That's a plus. I totally agree on a:B+K. Should never have changed it.
 
One of my favourite things is BT DGF A guard crush into SDGF, scoot back and SDGF B haha. Not a bread and butter strat but works here and there. Yoshi is fun so I don't mind taking damage on shenanigans once and a while! I also drop right on them with 2B+K here and there with positive results. SDGF is a really powerful stance! A+K will hit them for a pile of damage with a much larger radius than one would suspect.
 
Bring back being able to teleport behind the opponent again.. that might be enough to keep the mix-up fresh and give some credibility to MED. After probably 1000 games now starting to get tired of the same mix-ups.

That JG card goes both ways, it won't be long before players start JG'ing copter/SDGF B.

How effective is DGF - SDGF - DGF - mixup? Catch people hesitating/expecting SDGF move?

Was 22_88 B always this dodgy with the hit-box at times as well?

Isn't SDGF K underrated? massive damage off the back of 1K/MED K, 8A.. with a chance at 25% life back + aGI / quake stun follow up? High risk/reward but at the moment it seems worth it, hey.. we have to try everything at the moment to get some life back into the character! Sometimes the opponent will hit you out if you mess up and you don't lose as much hp. Tied in with the health regen throw mixups too.. it could be quite an effective strat (get health from throw twice = free attempt at SDGF K.)

Actually, if you did get the health throw twice, that's a difference of 120hp man.. which is a pretty big deal when you think about it. How good are your throw mind games.. this could be epic.. they don't break the throw on purpose thinking you'll damage yourself but instead you just drop out a normal throw (my fave at the mo is faking 66A+B into 214A+G for 65 dmg and a smaller escape window)

Maybe the health regen options are the reason Namco are not showing the love? He' can go higher than 240 HP in a round? Maybe that's the skill now to using him, is to find sneaky ways to get your HP back over time and win via the clock? We're thinking about it the wrong way.. not get in.. keep the opponent out!! counter-hit 6K / Ba all day ftw :) This also explains why MED options are crappy.. it's for HP regen. If you have the life lead the opponent comes to you and that makes getting in easier?
 
Oboro said:
Really there's nothing to learn about his stances at this point IMO. They're largely unchanged so if the shit is still working it's cause it's a solid mix up game because people have been seeing it since 3.

MCF is i9 from a crouch now and you don't have to RCC to get the unshakable stun. That's a plus. I totally agree on a:B+K. Should never have changed it.
Click to expand...

MED is highly changed, and you can deal with all options. SDGF and DGF are pretty much the same but they never gave you solid mix-ups. If people are falling for it consistently its because they aren't used to it.

MCF granting stun is great, but I feel like its rare getting a CH from a FC position at MCF range. Agreed that it was a "buff" though.
 
2K into FC MCF is a great trap. MCF blocked into FC MCF is a great trap too! MED is gimmicky and easily dealth with by a cool headed opponent. I guess I just disagree with you on DGF and SDGF. It's been working for me since SC3!
 
Smilez said:
Fast AA, pokes that give good enough advantage to continue his mix up game, and good damage on throws. FC 3k may not lead to a ton of damage but it serves it purpose because when yoshi gets that knockdown he has the advantage to keep mixing up. FC3k when combined with good spacing, isn't a bad whiff punisher either. Sure his stance stuff can be dealt with but he has good tools outside of stances to pressure opponents once he is in. Timing is everything, if you mix up the timing on the stance mix ups they become more effective I've found, and having the special throws out of those stances just adds another layer of stuff.

Yoshi might have some issues getting in but good ol JG can take care of some of that. Because of JG nothing is sacred in this game especially if you know the opponents attack patterns.
Click to expand...

What pokes does Yoshi have that leave him at advantage on block? He has two attacks, neither of which are pokes, that leave him at 0. The only attacks he has that give him advantage on block are ridiculously telegraphed. And I'm not saying this to prove you wrong, I actually want to know what you're referring to. One of the biggest problems I'm having is staying close and opening up an opponent with good defense. Stance canceled throws and delays during stances simply aren't reliable strats.

Oboro said:
MCF is i9 from a crouch now and you don't have to RCC to get the unshakable stun. That's a plus. I totally agree on a:B+K. Should never have changed it.
Click to expand...

You have to RCC for max damage though. You also can't hit confirm the RCC because you have so little time to do it. I'm not complaining about that, just saying it's still necessary.

rudeb0y said:
Isn't SDGF K underrated?
Click to expand...

I use this when I can. The problem is that it only works against someone who doesn't know the match-up (just like SDGF 8B+K). Anyone who knows the match-up will block low and punish.
 
Max bnb damage under normal circumstances for MCF is 66B, 66A+B at 67 is it not? RCC 3B, 6K does 66 and 66B, 6B+K,B,B,B, 3B does 64. Another thing to consider too is when the opponent's health is in the yellow, door knocker combos aren't worth as much because each little hits get nailed with the low health scaling where as 66B, 66A+B, 3B and 6K won't cause they are over 20 damage.
 
DGF is going to work at least some of the time, it all depends on how well you mix it up and how well you set it up. People's reaction times aren't going to be on point 100% of the time and sometimes when people see helicopter they freeze up. DGF on wakeup, on the other hand, usually won't do much good on very quality opponents. Most know you can just 8K or whatever they have to avoid the whole mixup's combo potential or, better yet, knock you out of it. Just use it creatively as with any mixup and you'll be fine.

Now where the hell is my easier RCC for iMCF? It's not terribly difficult but you have to commit to it now and that really fucks me up sometimes.
 
DrDogg said:
What pokes does Yoshi have that leave him at advantage on block?
Click to expand...


What fast pokes do other characters have in SC5 that leave them at advantage on block?
I use this when I can. The problem is that it only works against someone who doesn't know the match-up (just like SDGF 8B+K). Anyone who knows the match-up will block low and punish.
Click to expand...
It's better to time the jump attack.


Serisouly, DrDogg, it sounds like the Yoshi you want is a broken Yoshi. He's got plenty of tools to work w/, you just gotta be more creative.
 
Why are people trying to defend this Yoshi? This yoshi isnt great... Its ok to main a low to mid tier character... He doesnt always have to be cream of the crop... He has many holes in his game, his combos are risky, but his damage is mediocre except on walls... Zero safe options to get inside... Ring out game is good... Pokes are ok... Stances are bullshit... every now and then you might hit a DGF K on a good player... still your taking a huge risk to start that 70 dmg combo... lol Throw game is good... Lows are average... FC 3k and 2k being the only really good ones... Yet one is half life punishable and only leads to 40 dmg... Almost all iMCF set ups are gone on block... Tekken moves are trash because A+K is trash... MED A+B is trash can be back stepped then full combo'd with some characters... Your little SDGF K anytime you are using it after 1K, 8A you can be hit out of the air by simple pokes... All MED mix ups can be punished on reaction by B,B, most CE's , or G:7 into whiff punish... a:B+K is dumb as hell for the effort now on hit -6...

Good things about him, his poke game in general is good, he can be played very basic and be a very good character, but if your going to play basics you might as well play Pat, Pyr, or Opyr...
His spin JF's are awesome if you can consistantly hit them, but recovery still being random is a little dumb...
Wall combos are sick, he still has that wall juice Ill give him that, but getting your opponent to the wall and actually splatting them is another story...

I find it funny everyones saying the yoshi dr. dogg wants is "So Broken" yet no one said shit about SCIV yoshi being broken (Who I always said was top tier) which was probably 5 times better than this yoshi...

Simple yet very effective buffs wouldve been retreating A+B's (Tapping into 8wayrun out of backdash just isnt a habit for me yet, just seems easier to evade and punish by double tapping), Timeclock or soul siphon based tekken moves, and empty teleport going behind the opponent.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back