SCV Yoshimitsu Q&A and General Discussion

Signia

[13] Hero
@rudeb0y

Yeah I've been looking for a strong step catching option for hard reads. Started playing online again and people are running up and stepping like crazy. I mean, I could continue to iFC3K them (my answer for everything) but sometimes these players do step-attack which is too fast to iFC3K without getting CH'd. a:B+K doesn't really catch step unless it hits them near the beginning where it doesn't CH. 6(A) is too unsafe and I can't hit the iMCF followup. 3A is a little too slow for its range and gets me into trouble a lot. The only reasonably safe and damaging option is 4A JFs, I guess. Even without getting the "enter bliss" (1/3 chance) that's ~60 damage on CH. If you miss it and stop early that's still what, 48 damage into +1 up close?

Something I forgot to mention about 22B is that at a close spacing, but not too close that 22B flat out whiffs, stepping left and landing this against an opponent that just whiffed can get you a backturned launch which can be your max damage meterless punish in a lot of situations. You have to be close so that the step covers enough radial ground that you get to the opponent's side, and then the move's terrible alignment works in your favor to somehow cause a backturned launch.

Yeah 22K is really hard to use, but I feel like it should be as reasonable to land as 33A+B. The problem is there's too many issues. Are they recovering crouch or not, am I too far to get a good followup, am I far away enough that it won't whiff, is it going to hit in time or will they crouch it, why didn't I just CE, etc. If I could just recognize situations where it'll definitely work if I see a specific move whiff, it could be good. There's a lot of situations where you know you're going to step something and where 22K is the best option. When you need think about and reactive to everything else, 3B is the way to go.
 

Signia

[13] Hero
I don't know if anyone is still reading these boards, but whatever here goes:

So I've seen a noticeable improvement in my game recently, getting free rounds all the time for one reason: I am constantly vying for favorable stage positioning, and my opponents usually all but ignore it. They quickly find themselves with their back to the wall or edge and are one read away from dying. Often, I get that read, since Yoshimitsu has many ways of getting opponents on the wall and has very long ringout range with the right combo. So how do I always corner mid-high level players?

Let's start at the beginning of the round. The safest thing to do is to backstep first, since it beats everything the opponent might do, so both players often end up backstepping away from each other. However, that gives up valuable space behind you, so you shouldn't be backstepping for long. And as long as your opponent is backstepping, you can steal positional advantage. The direction the opponent moves relative to the stage when backstepping depends on where you are. If they decide to backstep, they might unwittingly be moving into dangerous positioning! So, you can aim them toward the edge using your movement! At the start of each round, sometimes the stage is behind them, sometimes it's perpendicular, sometimes it's diagonal. Every stage has it's own metagame to be explored.

Next, you want to contain them where they are when they're in a bad position or you want to keep them from sidestepping out of potential danger. If you follow their step with your own, the stage positioning will not rotate. However, if you step in opposite directions, then the stage will rotate twice as fast. The effect that sidestep has on positioning is stronger the closer you are to the opponent.

So, by simply reacting to their movement, you can corner a player that's just waiting for whiffs or trying to stay in neutral or better spacing. You counter their passive movement with aggressive movement.

Okay, now onto the Yoshi stuff:

Yoshimitsu has lots of tools to advance a positioning-focused strategy. He can:

  • Push them back.
    • 33BB+K or 66K, even on block.
    • On hit, 3B a:B+K DNK combos, iMCF combos, and iFC3K RCC 3B if they back tech as they usually do.
  • Contain them with a variety of safe or threatening tools.
    • 3K is i14 and -6 on block and tracks, so even if they block it and try to sidestep, they'll get counter hit by another 3K. If they're trapped by the edge, they can't backstep away, so you can spam 3K to goad them into attacking, which is very dangerous as I'll get into. A spaced 3K, with positioning or not, sets up into all sorts of things.
    • iFC3K is a step killer that knocks down. Players often want to tech away to make your next mixup have worse risk/reward, which gives you free positioning. It's also what you want to do once they're scared to do anything, especially duck. You can see this move covers a lot of different purposes.
    • 3A BE counter hit confirm is essentially a launcher that hits if they sidestep, which is what they want to do when they're close to the edge, however, launching is exactly what will win you the round if you're by the edge.
    • 66A BE, longer range and a riskier version of 3A BE's usage. With meter you can extend the ringout range super far, just spend it all if it'll win you the round. If you have no meter and want an easy ringout followup, delayed DNK works.
    • 6K is for that sweet wall damage if they've stepped to Yoshi's dangerous side (right). Also rings out left.
    • 44A, I don't really use this too much but it's -6 which is great and rings out right, especially if they tech into DNK.
    • B+G4_6 keeps them standing and under pressure whether they've broken the throw or not.
  • Ring out far, so decent positioning for other characters is amazing positioning if it's Yoshi. One whiff, even if they're three steps from the edge is death if you are on point.
    • DNK combos. Know how close you have to be and which characters that air-hit a:B+K DNK works on. This greatly increases your ringout range. It'll work on everybody if you're right near the edge. 214A, CH DNK, 44A tech trap, DGF K, and (yoshi's) right side hit iFC3K, and deathcopter on tall characters can start DNK combo ringouts too, if you can hit them.
    • 4A JF. Absolutely needed for certain stages with low walls and for times when you can't get a:B+K DNK. You can go for lucky double or triple 4A JFs crazy ringout distance, if you want. If the double will do it, I say go for it, since it's a 1/3 chance of winning the round. Gotta get the full JF consistently, though, but it's not too hard, each JF has a three frame window.
    • GI followups. Immediate 3B for i17 timing, step forward 3B for i27 timing, and wait for re-GI into 3B. They can only cover one of these options, outside of a GI JG.
    • Note: you can slightly aim a:B+K DNK after 3B launches, especially counterhit and stun combo launches (they go slightly higher) by doing a small sidestep before doing them.
  • Wallsplat from multiple different reads, and do at least 100 damage without meter. All of these can be set up from -6 or better, like a spaced 3K or 2K.
    • 4K, 66K, or 3B as whiff punishes after backstepping. 4K and 66K result in weaker combos if they land too close to the wall, since you don't have time for 2A+BB.
    • Jump K for 2As and throws, and as a mid, and as a step catcher, usually results in the most consistent wall combos. If they also jump, you can get a:B+K which might wallsplat, or 6K which might air-control trap them into the K followup.
    • iMCF RCC 3B to CH anything that is too slow or is high.
    • Step left 6K, for the hard read on the fast BB that will beat the above options.
    • GI to beat all attack responses.
    • Not a wall combo, but if the wall is to Yoshi's left, 6KK is guaranteed after launchers since the wall blocks the correct air control escape.
    • Guard crush followup. Step 6K or step DNK to aim them at the wall for massive combos.
So if you constantly fight for positioning, you'll get more opportunities to win rounds and you'll pressure your opponent into playing predictably or playing very dangerously. This goes for all characters, but Yoshimitsu is one of the few that can turn this theory into reality very consistently.
 

TwoSwords

"The Winquitter"
Thanks again for the write up @Signia ! I appreciate you sharing your knowledge with all of us !

As for combos that have good push back, iMCF ~ 66B or CH! 66B into 2A+b ~ Flea 6(6) is a pretty good option. It has way more push back or nearly as the DNK follow up including more damage. your thoughts on this ???

I also have a question as too what set ups 3K can lead into? I what to use this move more effectively along with my current game plan. It just seems to good to pass up.
 

Signia

[13] Hero
Thanks again for the write up @Signia ! I appreciate you sharing your knowledge with all of us !

As for combos that have good push back, iMCF ~ 66B or CH! 66B into 2A+b ~ Flea 6(6) is a pretty good option. It has way more push back or nearly as the DNK follow up including more damage. your thoughts on this ???

I also have a question as too what set ups 3K can lead into? I what to use this move more effectively along with my current game plan. It just seems to good to pass up.
iMCF RCC 3B a:B+K DNK 2K pushes back the furthest, and you can aim it with 3 or 9 right before the a:B+K. The launch is a stun counter launch so it goes slightly higher giving you extra time to step between the 3B and the a:B+K.

Though, you can't always get DNK after a:B+K. So your suggestion would be better for big characters, and just a general best choice for CH 66B. I try to only use 33B with almost no 66B, since it does more damage on both normal hit confirm and on CH confirm to 6K/a:B+K and on block it gives you a possible way out of -12 punishes. However, you never can get DNK after CH 33B so if you want max distance, so yeah CH 66B 2A+B FLE 6(6) will carry them the furthest but 33B a:B+K 3B is a lot more damage and goes almost as far. So I like the idea for iMCF followups on big characters.

3K puts you in a good position on block, spaced back a bit at -6, to move to bait whiffs or to iMCF their movement catchers. It's like BB with less damage but has tracking and is much harder to whiff punish. So it's nothing you probably don't already know. But by the edge or wall, it can be really dangerous for them to whiff or get iMCF'd, and if you spam 3K they cannot move out of this risky situation with better positioning. Steps take 20 frames, and 3K is i14 and -6 on block, so you will CH their step on frame 20 if they want to try to get out of there after blocking 3K.

Usually you want to sacrifice frame advantage and initiative to change positioning if it's not good, and attacking from disadvantage with step catchers stops this and makes them want to do something crazy. Another setup is like this is 2K(hit) to 6K (contacts steppers at -2 + i15 = i17) (which will also nail jumpers trying to go over the 2K iMCF setup). iMCF(blocked) into 6K, or 4B(blocked) into 3K or 6K might work well, too.
 

Signia

[13] Hero
So I don't why I didn't realize this earlier but B+G4_B+G6 combos into AA if you're by the wall and leaves you up close at +6. Normally, the first A pushes them out so the standard thing to do is K or some mixup. This changes everything!

I like using Soul Siphon by the wall/edge because it keeps them in the same position whether they break or not, which is especially nice against Algol, who pushes you way back if he breaks a grab. And you need a nice way to damage someone who is too afraid to move or attack or do anything because you might kill them for it. Normal grabs are good but they relieve them of the wall pressure a bit. You can do 2K into one of many setups, but if they're turtling up they'll just block the next attack and step out of there. FC 2K spam sort of works here but you wan't stop them from stepping out of there unless you do 6K which is risky against someone who is also threatening to just block.

So I've been using Soul Siphon but it's actually a pretty bad grab because if it's broken, not only do you do no damage but you basically grab yourself. You get +13 (+10 if backturned), which gets you a mixup or some guaranteed damage. You're already risking getting your grab ducked the risk/reward is bad, even if you get a free K.

BUT by the wall, they should be afraid duck, because they could die, and you can pretty much rule it out (but watch out for yolo Ivy, ZWEI, Aeon, Pat, Pyrrha, Omega reverse ringouts from tech crouch). And you get AA instead of just K. When you guess wrong, you lose 30 damage and the opponent heals 30 damage, but it doesn't seem so bad anymore when you can take 24 damage back, and if you guess right that's an 84 damage differential. K is +2 on hit and leaves them far away, useless for Yoshimitsu. Doing K into 3K by the wall is good, but AA is +6 and you're back in grab range!

So, you can keep doing Soul Siphon into AA over and over again by the wall, and even they break 2/3 of the grabs, you'll come out ahead. Be sure to favor B+G4, since B+G6 will be "broken" if they break B but also if they derp and don't break at all. I was giving people free health for the longest time...

Mixup mids to go with the throws are 3B to beat or favorably trade with everything, Jump K to beat 2A and step and anything over i14, 3K to be safe and beat step and attacks and go into 3K setups on block or hit. 3A BE for ringout from step catching or counterattack.

Note: don't do this grab at full health, it's not worth the risk without the healing.

Note 2: weird thing about Soul Siphon, it appears to be i18 unlike every other throw.

Note 3: you can forgo the AA for an uninterruptable iFC3K, 3B, 3B+K or 44A (depending on the character's AA). If someone hasn't seen this setup, they're getting hit by the sweep.

Note 4: I'm gonna have the best wall pressure everrr
 

TwoSwords

"The Winquitter"
Hey I know the forums are dead for over a year (never registered myself on 8 way run but was stalking some forums when SC4 came out) but.. since i recently started playing SC again ( I haven't bought 5 until now because i was one of those people that were pissed about the missing old characters) i just wanted to ask how do you perform this one move that looks a bit like mitsurugi's B:6 while yoshi is moving backwards ( i guess it's some kind of cancel ? ) i saw it quite a few times now and even mitsu can do it to ( i was watching fahroTTT videos) but i couldn't find anything so far.
Thank you !
Try 44B. This puts you in a unblockable charge which you can press B or A to get different attacks. Press B for the move you are looking for. Hope this helped.
 
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BloodyTigerRoar

[10] Knight
That's a question with multiple answers. ALL of his stances are relatively easy to punish. Even on reaction. (He also can't block)

Getting hit by Deathcopter?
-Ukemi backwards (4G)
Getting hit by FC3K?
-Well then gaurd low. Try to recognize your opponents habits. Like what move he used to knock you down, he'll probably try to mix you up a certain way after. 90% of Yoshi players have certain tendencies.

There are more, you can ask about specifics if you'd like.


When you're new to fighting Yoshi it might seem like a lot, but it's really not.

Depending on your character, you can get away with different things.

I'd suggest going to training, record the moves giving you trouble, let the cpu keep doing that over & over while you try different things to see what punishes. (Keep in mind what would RO, and which does the most dmg)

After a little grinding you'll develop a muscle memory for it & he won't be a problem anymore....Probably lol
(Depends on opponent's skill level)