Cirex
[09] Warrior
Right, because the distance between buttons, the size of the controller and so on is equal.
Try to hold square+triangle (X+Y) pushed while you try to block/kick. Tell me where you can, where you can't.
Should Button Binding with Hilde be banned?
- Thread starter KingAce
- Start date
Right, because the distance between buttons, the size of the controller and so on is equal.
Try to hold square+triangle (X+Y) pushed while you try to block/kick. Tell me where you can, where you can't.
DancingFighterG
[08] Mercenary
Yo, this is DancingFighterg. Button Binding is allowed on standard PS3 controllers and sticks. From my testing I don't see any reason to band button binding for Hilda. It gives her no advantage that she doesn't already have.
shauno
[09] Warrior
So then, you have no problem with all characters being able to easily JF tech roll out of any difficult KD setup (where its possible) because of button binding, as I described here?
WareEaglesDare
[09] Warrior
I cannot agree with this as an Ivy player that uses a pad (which is VERY feasable BTW.) The fact of the matter is, unless I want to hold my hand in some decrepid position and be completely uncomfortable, I can't effectively press combinations like A+K (stance change) or B+G (duh). If your fingers are oddly shaped and you can do this with your thumb with no problem, maybe you shouldn't have a say in what normal people need to do. If I were using a stick (I would if there was a good one for the 360), A+K alone would be so much easier to press. How could 90 percent of commands not be easier when you have use of all fingers on your hand for 4 buttons instead of 4 buttons to 1 finger? I'll go with banning sequence mapping, as I've worked hard to re-learn and pull off CS at will (on a pad non-the-less), but button binding just seems like a fruitless arguement.
Edit: I may not make another post for another year. Stupid OCD tendancies.
ShenOu
[10] Knight
Maybe I was a bit hard to understand.
I'm suggesting either NOT allowing any BUTTON binding at all.
Or allowing free binding as long as sequences aren't allowed, and no repeat buttons.
Thus you will still get up to 4 fingers to press your 4 buttons with.
That would mean that Pad players have A HUGE advantage over stick players.
Because they can break throws that stick players cannot break.
And they can hold charges forever while stick players have to adapt accordingly.
If that's not an unfair advantage then what is? Bubbles?
DancingFighterG: Did you ever bother to READ my post.
What the HELL do you mean there's NO advantage for a Pad user over a Stick user.
I've listed down how it can BREAK A MATCH-UP.
Button Binding on a Pad allows Hilde players a small edge against ANY CHARACTER WITH A COMMAND GRAB that Stick Hildes (or hilde without additional binds) will NOT have.
Its as good as a CHEAT... an OUT OF GAME mechanic at that. Its not an ingame glitch or bug.. Its an OUT OF GAME, 3rd Party MODIFIER to the game.
But then again, this is the community that wants to Ban Algol simply because people don't want to learn how to get PAST it.
Let's look back shall we.
SC3: You guys let a GAME BREAKING BUG slide.. making us look like a joke.
SC4: You guys want to ban a character simply because people WHINE. I don't even see proper testing being done, arguments to support the WAAAAH train.
I was at the front of the Anti-banwagon for Algol, but even I'm given up.. because there's a never-ending trail of WAAAAAAH...
SC4: Now you tell me you're going to let Hilde players use an OUT OF GAME mechanic to gain an ADVANTAGE over other players?
Let me lawls for a moment, and wonder why people think the SC community is a joke.
RedDjinn
Dat Hillbilly
LoL who are these people you speak of ? Do you hear it at the club when people say hey the SC community are a bunch of losers.... Is it the Tekken guys The Street Fighter Gang... some Guilty Gear boys?
Why is everyone saying, oh no wonder everyone thinks the SC community is a joke... LIKE we give a shit ? Who are we trying to impress... Your one of the people that made the damn video to even get all this algol shit started and now your complaining about people crying about him? What do you expect we had about 10,000 DOA players come over... and about 20,000 noobs come in with SC4.... What do you expect? They dont know any better...
Any society that frowns on a video game community for people that whine are just idiots... there are whiners everywhere in every game.... I'm tired of hearing YOU people whining about the SC community and how pussified it is... Your a moderator you should be bringing positive vibes to the community.... not putting down the people in it...
Not everyones a whiner here... and I'm tired of hearing how we are a joke... Tell those people who think we are a joke to come play us in SC4 and hell play ALGOL WITH BUTTON BINDING hilde transformations for all i care.... We will still ROMP them and show them how much of a joke we are...
We whine so what , everyone complains... The good players find a way around it quietly while the others sit there and think they just can never get around it... dont sum up the whole community in one sentence people just because we have some whiners...
Why is everyone saying, oh no wonder everyone thinks the SC community is a joke... LIKE we give a shit ? Who are we trying to impress... Your one of the people that made the damn video to even get all this algol shit started and now your complaining about people crying about him? What do you expect we had about 10,000 DOA players come over... and about 20,000 noobs come in with SC4.... What do you expect? They dont know any better...
Any society that frowns on a video game community for people that whine are just idiots... there are whiners everywhere in every game.... I'm tired of hearing YOU people whining about the SC community and how pussified it is... Your a moderator you should be bringing positive vibes to the community.... not putting down the people in it...
Not everyones a whiner here... and I'm tired of hearing how we are a joke... Tell those people who think we are a joke to come play us in SC4 and hell play ALGOL WITH BUTTON BINDING hilde transformations for all i care.... We will still ROMP them and show them how much of a joke we are...
We whine so what , everyone complains... The good players find a way around it quietly while the others sit there and think they just can never get around it... dont sum up the whole community in one sentence people just because we have some whiners...
Thane
[09] Warrior
Button binding should not be banned. Not for Hilde and not for anyone else.
I think the idea is ridiculous. Pressing
and together under the defult settings can be awkward. Binding makes this much easier to do what it is your trying to accomplish.
I think the idea is ridiculous. Pressing
and together under the defult settings can be awkward. Binding makes this much easier to do what it is your trying to accomplish.
IdleMind
BANNED FOREVER
Warning: All Caps post to follow
WERE NOT TRYING TO BAN BUTTON BINDING WITH EVERY CHARACTER. WERE NOT EVEN TRYING TO BAN MULTIPLE BINDS WITH HILDE. THE INTENTION OF THIS THREAD IS TO FIGURE OUT WHETHER EXTRA SINGLE BINDS, WHICH GIVE HILDE AN ADVANTAGE IN THROW BREAKING SHE DOES NOT NORMALLY HAVE, IS BANNABLE OR NOT. WERE NOT PERSECUTING YOU, YOU DAMN PAD MARTYRS. BIND AWAY. THIS IS A SPECIFIC INSTANCE WERE TALKING ABOUT. A MICROCOSM. READ THE DAMN ISSUE BEFORE YOU SPAM ANOTHER "ITS NOT FAIR TO BAN BINDS a+k WAAH WAAH WAHH"
-Idle
PS: Mods, Im sorry.
WERE NOT TRYING TO BAN BUTTON BINDING WITH EVERY CHARACTER. WERE NOT EVEN TRYING TO BAN MULTIPLE BINDS WITH HILDE. THE INTENTION OF THIS THREAD IS TO FIGURE OUT WHETHER EXTRA SINGLE BINDS, WHICH GIVE HILDE AN ADVANTAGE IN THROW BREAKING SHE DOES NOT NORMALLY HAVE, IS BANNABLE OR NOT. WERE NOT PERSECUTING YOU, YOU DAMN PAD MARTYRS. BIND AWAY. THIS IS A SPECIFIC INSTANCE WERE TALKING ABOUT. A MICROCOSM. READ THE DAMN ISSUE BEFORE YOU SPAM ANOTHER "ITS NOT FAIR TO BAN BINDS a+k WAAH WAAH WAHH"
-Idle
PS: Mods, Im sorry.
Thane
[09] Warrior
lol, calm down there buddy.
"WHICH GIVE HILDE AN ADVANTAGE IN THROW BREAKING SHE DOES NOT NORMALLY HAVE, IS BANNABLE OR NOT."
Specifically...NO. Should not be banned. I believe its part of what gives her her position in the tiers. As far as sticks go those players have an easier time imo. I just suck at using them.
"WHICH GIVE HILDE AN ADVANTAGE IN THROW BREAKING SHE DOES NOT NORMALLY HAVE, IS BANNABLE OR NOT."
Specifically...NO. Should not be banned. I believe its part of what gives her her position in the tiers. As far as sticks go those players have an easier time imo. I just suck at using them.
ShenOu
[10] Knight
Explain to why how a guy who has PTW in his signature is more or less telling me that he wants a handicap to be given to him simply because he doesn't know how to use a Stick?
PTW promotes the mentality of "if its in the game, it goes".
Hilde's mechanic is in the game, PTW would promote that she be left alone.
IIRC, the game comes with 4 buttons, not 6. So I don't see why you're going against our argument when you support PTW enough to quote it in your sig.
PTW promotes the mentality of "if its in the game, it goes".
Hilde's mechanic is in the game, PTW would promote that she be left alone.
IIRC, the game comes with 4 buttons, not 6. So I don't see why you're going against our argument when you support PTW enough to quote it in your sig.
Ceirnian
[11] Champion
Actually the game comes with 8 buttons, as they all have a bind by default. Button binding has been allowed thus far and there is no reason to ban it just because you are butt hurt about not getting the advantage on pad.
If you really want the extra advantage learn how to play on a pad. Same way goes for pad users, if they want the advantages of using a stick with a vast majority of the cast... use stick. This isn't complicated at all. Also if you really want I can ask Sirlin how he feels about the topic rather than you adding definitions to help you feel justified in your poisition. I can almost guarantee he won't see a problem with it.
If you really want the extra advantage learn how to play on a pad. Same way goes for pad users, if they want the advantages of using a stick with a vast majority of the cast... use stick. This isn't complicated at all. Also if you really want I can ask Sirlin how he feels about the topic rather than you adding definitions to help you feel justified in your poisition. I can almost guarantee he won't see a problem with it.
ShenYu
[11] Champion
The obvious solution is for Namco to release it for arcade. No more arguments. 4 buttons or die.
Maybe not really a solution in the states but it would be here.
Maybe not really a solution in the states but it would be here.
ShenOu
[10] Knight
Go ahead.
Better yet, let me get in contact with him.
I'd really love to see him agree with allowing people to play with out-of-game advantages.
Game shifting ones at that.
Jaytech
[09] Warrior
button mapping shouldn't be banned in general, especially not for pad users, who only have one thumb for buttons. if it's in the game and not broken, you should be able to use it. same for hilde.
tiggerkiddo
[09] Warrior
Did they have any plans to release it for arcade?
Ceirnian
[11] Champion
Problem with your arguement is that it is an in game advantage using in game options to achieve. Button binding in a fighting game is no new concept, and this is one of the rare times pad is actually better for a character over a stick.
Willing to put money down on what he will say?
ShenYuan
[10] Knight
Giving hilde an extra A or B button is IMO bypassing an intended weakness and is making her way stronger than she already is. It is too big an advantage.
I believe namco intended her to be slightly more vulnerable to throws if the opponent can guess which button Hilde is holding.... in light of really how overpowered the charge moves are... in their respective applications in the game...
More importantly,
The presence of a command throw in the opponent's moveset can greatly alter the way Hilde is played for a pad user and a stick user.... I will even argue that pad users can ignore many skills needed for stick users.. simply because the binding provides for extra leniency. If the advantage for pad users was small, as intimated by the above posts..... I would agree to the bind.. but what I am trying to say is that the advantage you all are insinuating is understated...
I will talk about why command throws are harder to break than normal throws... then I would go on to why I feel the advantage is too massive.
If hilde is charging A, and a normal A throw is coming, Hilde can release and tap A to break the throw on time. However, the window for a command throw is not as lenient... throws like CS/SS, cervy B+G cmd throw, asta JF throw are IMPOSSIBLE or near impossible to break on reaction when a button is charged. Too much time is wasted in releasing a charge, and then tapping a throw break
Therefore, in order to deal with command throws more effectively, foresight is emphasised alot more... for hilde players. This means reading whether a mid or a throw , or a crouch/stand guard is coming from the opponent WAY beforehand.
I am arguing that the advantage is too massive because when playing Hilde on a stick against command throw heavy characters like cervantes, Astaroth.. Ivy... I need to employ more foresight. I need to read whether a mid or throw is coming waaay before it comes. This is unlike playing Hilde on a pad where the utility... and the necessity of foresight is alot less pronounced to the point it can be ommited in many critical points in a match... this is because pad players can apply throw escape guard.. where they can hold guard and mash a throw break...
This is important because Hilde must preserve flexibility in breaking command throws which are tougher to break, when she knows that they are coming. This is done by charging efficiently; this means charging B only when a mid needs to be done, when Hilde is at advantage... only charging B when a throw is coming and you will duck it to punish it, when at disadvantage... and only doing so if you know a whiff is coming.... This means not charging if Hilde wants to do a low or a throw when at advantage too... In this way, and there are more oppurtunities for Hilde to have both A and B free to perform throw breaks against command throws...
On the other hand, pad players can choose to bypass this because they can choose to apply TEG..... at a greater degree than stick players... who can TEG with no buttons or only one button most of the time... IF they played with less foresight...
So yeah the issue of contention is that hilde players on stick have to learn the art of foresight.. which becomes necessary.. while players on pad can ignore or pay alot less attention to it.... So essentially players on stick will have a harder time learning Hilde as compared to those who have an easier time because they have to think less.
DFG: For this issue, regarding hilde, IMO its not the superficial aspect... that must be considered.. its the mental processes that are demanded by both stick and pad that are different
I believe namco intended her to be slightly more vulnerable to throws if the opponent can guess which button Hilde is holding.... in light of really how overpowered the charge moves are... in their respective applications in the game...
More importantly,
The presence of a command throw in the opponent's moveset can greatly alter the way Hilde is played for a pad user and a stick user.... I will even argue that pad users can ignore many skills needed for stick users.. simply because the binding provides for extra leniency. If the advantage for pad users was small, as intimated by the above posts..... I would agree to the bind.. but what I am trying to say is that the advantage you all are insinuating is understated...
I will talk about why command throws are harder to break than normal throws... then I would go on to why I feel the advantage is too massive.
If hilde is charging A, and a normal A throw is coming, Hilde can release and tap A to break the throw on time. However, the window for a command throw is not as lenient... throws like CS/SS, cervy B+G cmd throw, asta JF throw are IMPOSSIBLE or near impossible to break on reaction when a button is charged. Too much time is wasted in releasing a charge, and then tapping a throw break
Therefore, in order to deal with command throws more effectively, foresight is emphasised alot more... for hilde players. This means reading whether a mid or a throw , or a crouch/stand guard is coming from the opponent WAY beforehand.
I am arguing that the advantage is too massive because when playing Hilde on a stick against command throw heavy characters like cervantes, Astaroth.. Ivy... I need to employ more foresight. I need to read whether a mid or throw is coming waaay before it comes. This is unlike playing Hilde on a pad where the utility... and the necessity of foresight is alot less pronounced to the point it can be ommited in many critical points in a match... this is because pad players can apply throw escape guard.. where they can hold guard and mash a throw break...
This is important because Hilde must preserve flexibility in breaking command throws which are tougher to break, when she knows that they are coming. This is done by charging efficiently; this means charging B only when a mid needs to be done, when Hilde is at advantage... only charging B when a throw is coming and you will duck it to punish it, when at disadvantage... and only doing so if you know a whiff is coming.... This means not charging if Hilde wants to do a low or a throw when at advantage too... In this way, and there are more oppurtunities for Hilde to have both A and B free to perform throw breaks against command throws...
On the other hand, pad players can choose to bypass this because they can choose to apply TEG..... at a greater degree than stick players... who can TEG with no buttons or only one button most of the time... IF they played with less foresight...
So yeah the issue of contention is that hilde players on stick have to learn the art of foresight.. which becomes necessary.. while players on pad can ignore or pay alot less attention to it.... So essentially players on stick will have a harder time learning Hilde as compared to those who have an easier time because they have to think less.
DFG: For this issue, regarding hilde, IMO its not the superficial aspect... that must be considered.. its the mental processes that are demanded by both stick and pad that are different
KingAce
HERMITISM
I thought this discussion was over...binding with hilde is fine.
Your argument that it makes it easy, is weak...that's the point of the controller. This is a console game, not an arcade game. All this was already forseen by Namco, and if it wasn't...well who can assume(patches will come). And she isn't unstoppable or anything, nor is it unfair in anyway...anybody that wishes to get good at this game should be able to handle hilde...like this.
It is your prerogative to use whatever controller you like, don't hold it to pad users for using it's features on a console. Clearly sticks are designed with limited features because they're backwards in technology.
You say the advantage is massive, but this doesn't show up in matches, Hilde requires just as much skill to win with binding, it's just easier with binding. Whatever mistakes Namco might have made should be addressed by Namco, unless this issue is game breaking...or changes the entire course of gameplay.
And since most new players use pads, I am definitely against anyone who's going to make it difficult for them to adapt this game...the community comes first.
Your argument that it makes it easy, is weak...that's the point of the controller. This is a console game, not an arcade game. All this was already forseen by Namco, and if it wasn't...well who can assume(patches will come). And she isn't unstoppable or anything, nor is it unfair in anyway...anybody that wishes to get good at this game should be able to handle hilde...like this.
It is your prerogative to use whatever controller you like, don't hold it to pad users for using it's features on a console. Clearly sticks are designed with limited features because they're backwards in technology.
You say the advantage is massive, but this doesn't show up in matches, Hilde requires just as much skill to win with binding, it's just easier with binding. Whatever mistakes Namco might have made should be addressed by Namco, unless this issue is game breaking...or changes the entire course of gameplay.
And since most new players use pads, I am definitely against anyone who's going to make it difficult for them to adapt this game...the community comes first.
ShenYuan
[10] Knight
Kingace: Im not arguing that it is easy. I am arguing that using a controller MODIFIES the thought processes when playing Hilde in high level. and CONTROLLERS should NOT dictate what a player has to think about.
A pad player should not be made to think less than a stick palyer. That is a sin.
It should make execution easier. Not thinkign easier
If you are saying that sticks are designed with limited features.. By implication i can take you to mean that sticks are harder in terms of execution, as far as hilde's throw breeaking is concerned.... But upon closer examination, Its not the execution that is made harder. Its the mental skills required............. that is made harder... well not harder.. different
There is a difference between binding to make a combo or series of inputs easier and binding to make you think LESS or DIFFERENTLY.
and your argument that sticks are desinged with limited features and are backwards in technology is interesting. why so?
I am inclined to believe that the advantage does not 'show up in matches' because 1. you play pad hildes.. 2. hardly/do not play stick hildes 3. you dont play hilde 4. you dont know what good hilde players think.
and yeah about new players playing pads.. I know many new players who play with stick and cant paly on pad for nuts. so please dont overgeneralise .. and yeah i am also against anyone who is going to make it difficult for them to adapt to this game... the community comes first... stick palyers should not convert to pad players and endure the painstaking process too right? So why not just screw binding and just stick to pad... and stick!
A pad player should not be made to think less than a stick palyer. That is a sin.
It should make execution easier. Not thinkign easier
If you are saying that sticks are designed with limited features.. By implication i can take you to mean that sticks are harder in terms of execution, as far as hilde's throw breeaking is concerned.... But upon closer examination, Its not the execution that is made harder. Its the mental skills required............. that is made harder... well not harder.. different
There is a difference between binding to make a combo or series of inputs easier and binding to make you think LESS or DIFFERENTLY.
and your argument that sticks are desinged with limited features and are backwards in technology is interesting. why so?
I am inclined to believe that the advantage does not 'show up in matches' because 1. you play pad hildes.. 2. hardly/do not play stick hildes 3. you dont play hilde 4. you dont know what good hilde players think.
and yeah about new players playing pads.. I know many new players who play with stick and cant paly on pad for nuts. so please dont overgeneralise .. and yeah i am also against anyone who is going to make it difficult for them to adapt to this game... the community comes first... stick palyers should not convert to pad players and endure the painstaking process too right? So why not just screw binding and just stick to pad... and stick!
ShenYu
[11] Champion
I don't think this will ever get solved. So I say leave it in.
Likely pad players will get lazy and won't think quite to the level that Hilde requires at high level anyway.
Likely pad players will get lazy and won't think quite to the level that Hilde requires at high level anyway.