Dani_Hungerford
[09] Warrior
Well of ofourse if you use a horizantal it will be hard to step, lol.
Siegfried Anti Matchup Discussion: Building A Master Guide
- Thread starter Slayer_X64
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #83
Slayer_X64
Siegfried SA Moderator
lol no i mean u can step G SCH A to his right but not his left. the move comes out faster the farther u go towards siegfrieds right side. but to his left side, you have enough time to step G SCH A, duck underneath it and counter with a WR attack.
Dani_Hungerford
[09] Warrior
Or you can bend over and he'll do you nookie?
- Moderator
- #86
Heaton
A Soul in the Purgatory
I've always hated fighting her, and even a sort of competent Xianghua can still destroy me. Let's see what I can pump out tonight...
- Moderator
- #88
Heaton
A Soul in the Purgatory
GO READ SLAYER'S POST
- Thread starter
- #90
Slayer_X64
Siegfried SA Moderator
Rough Anti Xianghua:
PATIENCE IS KEY VS XIANGHUA. IF YOU ARE NOT PATIENT YOU WILL LOSE VERY QUICKLY.
-dont WR B unless for punishment, as she can interrupt SCH K follow up with AA.
-learn her SXS transitions and defend against them accordingly. some transitions are safe on grd, so you should try for a poke or a grab. other transitions are super unsafe to the point where you should be whipping out 3B.
-in X's command throw 214B+G412B, the 412B part is guardable through "just" block. if you can learn the timing you can take this away from her as an RO tool. not sure how punishable the 412B part is on block though.
-be very conservative and choosy with your attacks when X is at mid range, or has low - frames on grd, because this is the optimal time for her to throw out 44B. depending on range you can catch it with iWR A, which will at least stop her with mixing it up with step~attack. u can also throw out 6B, but X has monster step so this is not recommended. if worst comes to worst, you can just GI it, step G it to her left? or even simply step in and block it for a free 3B SCH K ~ 6B+K SRSH mixup on wake up with SRSH A+B as forced block i believe. *so far as i know sieg has no move that is whiff safe vs X 44B.
-X has very good step and a tendancy to move around alot. be cautious when using highs around her, especially if she starts to step 2G or you'll be eating FC 3B all day long. 3A can usually deal with this, and WR A can at least keep her in check from a distance. watch for 44B though.
-vs 3AK, block the 1st hit, duck the 2nd. if she only does the 1st hit and stops, WR K will usually interrupt any follow up, or if you're feeling lucky WR AA/WR B will do the same. since she's at such large -, it is unlikely that she will be able to step G WR AA.
-beware of X 4K. her AA is fast enough that after 4K grd, it will beat all options except sieg K, and she has a good variety of TC's that we have to be wary of. if you find X being agressive after this, 3B should TC, or at least trade with AA, and all other options she has will eat CH 3B. mind you she could also step afterwards. 6A or 2A is usually a fairly safe way of dealing with the step.
-do not attack after you eat KND EVER. X 66K will shut down basically every option you have from prone, and its only -11 on grd. judge what she does after 66K, to see if she will 44B and give u a free 3B, or if she'll simply guard and give you a free throw mixup.
-usually you want to step G xianghua left. this will evade FC 3B.
-Punish her well. you need every little bit of damage you can get in this matchup.
-always duck when you see WR A+B, regardless of whether it hits or not. if you see SXS, try interrupting it with WR K or FC K.
-beware of buffed SXS B. step it if you can react to it, otherwise try to GI it. it is vital that you do not block this move because it gives her a free combo, being +20 on grd and all.
-you shouldnt really have much reason to duck X since she only has 2 fairly fast advantageous lows, one of which can be spaced(1A) the other that can be stepped(1K). let grapple breaking and TC's take care of her grabs/various fast high attacks. the less chances you give her for 2B+G:B+K the better
-it may not seem like it, but Xianghua can outspace you fairly well, partly due to her great mobility. if you're going to try to close the distance, do so very cautiously, and remain wary of 66A, as it can and will kill step from a fair distance. 66A's TC can usually deal with this fairly well, and X cant really punish it that hard. other minor spacing tools you should watch for from X should be 3K, 44B, and 44KB. at range be very catious about whiffing. X has absolutely no problems whiff punishing an overly aggressive siegfried.
-beware her step. its very difficult to kill, and in some situations very dangerous to do so due to X's wonderful TC's. her step can step most of siegs B&B attacks, even a few that have minor tracking.
-keep your rushdown tactics to mid range, especially on wakeup. if you go for agressive stance mixups or pokes on wakeup too often, X can usually interrupt with FUFA/FDFA A+B, which is really a pain. 1A has enough range to safely hit her while she's grounded, and will kill any rolling she might have planned. 2K can force her up, and if rushing down, 66B can force her to stand and guard at tip range. 22_88B are decent mid ranged oki tools that can hit outside of FUFA/FDFA A+B range, as well as 3B, 44B and 7_8_9B.
-duck the 2nd hit of 44AA.
-either GI 2B+K at close range, or jump backwards.
-learn to react to the "flash" difference between SXS(no flash) and SXS buffed(flash). DO NOT duck against SXS buffed under any circumstances.
Overall fighting against X requires a great, strategic poking game, decent step skills, Patience, good oki knowledge and excellent punishment/whiff punishment skills. on the bright side, she's easier to fight than sophie.
PATIENCE IS KEY VS XIANGHUA. IF YOU ARE NOT PATIENT YOU WILL LOSE VERY QUICKLY.
-dont WR B unless for punishment, as she can interrupt SCH K follow up with AA.
-learn her SXS transitions and defend against them accordingly. some transitions are safe on grd, so you should try for a poke or a grab. other transitions are super unsafe to the point where you should be whipping out 3B.
-in X's command throw 214B+G412B, the 412B part is guardable through "just" block. if you can learn the timing you can take this away from her as an RO tool. not sure how punishable the 412B part is on block though.
-be very conservative and choosy with your attacks when X is at mid range, or has low - frames on grd, because this is the optimal time for her to throw out 44B. depending on range you can catch it with iWR A, which will at least stop her with mixing it up with step~attack. u can also throw out 6B, but X has monster step so this is not recommended. if worst comes to worst, you can just GI it, step G it to her left? or even simply step in and block it for a free 3B SCH K ~ 6B+K SRSH mixup on wake up with SRSH A+B as forced block i believe. *so far as i know sieg has no move that is whiff safe vs X 44B.
-X has very good step and a tendancy to move around alot. be cautious when using highs around her, especially if she starts to step 2G or you'll be eating FC 3B all day long. 3A can usually deal with this, and WR A can at least keep her in check from a distance. watch for 44B though.
-vs 3AK, block the 1st hit, duck the 2nd. if she only does the 1st hit and stops, WR K will usually interrupt any follow up, or if you're feeling lucky WR AA/WR B will do the same. since she's at such large -, it is unlikely that she will be able to step G WR AA.
-beware of X 4K. her AA is fast enough that after 4K grd, it will beat all options except sieg K, and she has a good variety of TC's that we have to be wary of. if you find X being agressive after this, 3B should TC, or at least trade with AA, and all other options she has will eat CH 3B. mind you she could also step afterwards. 6A or 2A is usually a fairly safe way of dealing with the step.
-do not attack after you eat KND EVER. X 66K will shut down basically every option you have from prone, and its only -11 on grd. judge what she does after 66K, to see if she will 44B and give u a free 3B, or if she'll simply guard and give you a free throw mixup.
-usually you want to step G xianghua left. this will evade FC 3B.
-Punish her well. you need every little bit of damage you can get in this matchup.
-always duck when you see WR A+B, regardless of whether it hits or not. if you see SXS, try interrupting it with WR K or FC K.
-beware of buffed SXS B. step it if you can react to it, otherwise try to GI it. it is vital that you do not block this move because it gives her a free combo, being +20 on grd and all.
-you shouldnt really have much reason to duck X since she only has 2 fairly fast advantageous lows, one of which can be spaced(1A) the other that can be stepped(1K). let grapple breaking and TC's take care of her grabs/various fast high attacks. the less chances you give her for 2B+G:B+K the better
-it may not seem like it, but Xianghua can outspace you fairly well, partly due to her great mobility. if you're going to try to close the distance, do so very cautiously, and remain wary of 66A, as it can and will kill step from a fair distance. 66A's TC can usually deal with this fairly well, and X cant really punish it that hard. other minor spacing tools you should watch for from X should be 3K, 44B, and 44KB. at range be very catious about whiffing. X has absolutely no problems whiff punishing an overly aggressive siegfried.
-beware her step. its very difficult to kill, and in some situations very dangerous to do so due to X's wonderful TC's. her step can step most of siegs B&B attacks, even a few that have minor tracking.
-keep your rushdown tactics to mid range, especially on wakeup. if you go for agressive stance mixups or pokes on wakeup too often, X can usually interrupt with FUFA/FDFA A+B, which is really a pain. 1A has enough range to safely hit her while she's grounded, and will kill any rolling she might have planned. 2K can force her up, and if rushing down, 66B can force her to stand and guard at tip range. 22_88B are decent mid ranged oki tools that can hit outside of FUFA/FDFA A+B range, as well as 3B, 44B and 7_8_9B.
-duck the 2nd hit of 44AA.
-either GI 2B+K at close range, or jump backwards.
-learn to react to the "flash" difference between SXS(no flash) and SXS buffed(flash). DO NOT duck against SXS buffed under any circumstances.
Overall fighting against X requires a great, strategic poking game, decent step skills, Patience, good oki knowledge and excellent punishment/whiff punishment skills. on the bright side, she's easier to fight than sophie.
Age_of_Truth
[12] Conqueror
conspiracy x2...
Pantocrator
[10] Knight
22[ B]
WS[ B] SCH [A]
More later.
WS[ B] SCH [A]
More later.
- Moderator
- #94
Heaton
A Soul in the Purgatory
Yun-Seong VS Siegfried
- Keep your stances simple with Yun-Seong. He has quite the arsenal of tech crouches and jumps to annoy you with, and can make utilizing Siegfried's stances more trouble than it's worth.
- To explain the above point: iWS (B) on block is interesting in this match-up - SCH K will trade with K, but will beat AA. However, SCH A will beat K, but clash with the first hit of AA and lose to the second, as well as lose entirely to 44B. SCH B will beat 44B, but lose to both K and AA. Entering Chief Hold from iWS (B) creates an interesting rock-paper-scissors type of mixup for both of you - I recommended caution when using iWS (B).
- Yun-Seong can close distance with 66A, 44A, 11A, and 9B+K. The first three of those are able to be auto-Guard Impacted with SBH, and 9B+K is steppable and runnable to your left.
- Yun-Seong can Soul Crush you very fast if you take to blocking the entire match. At maximum range, 66A+B is unpunishable and will crush in 8 - as is 66B. 11B, 33B, 66A, 6A+B, 3B - all are similar in that they are either unpunishable or barely punishable for Siegfried, crush in under 10, and are extremely linear (save 66A). Make sure to step or Guard Impact the linear moves - don't just sit there and take it.
- 6B is a safe, linear poke that he can enter stance from. He's at -10 on block if he doesn't enter stance from it, though 3K or 4K will stuff any further offense if he does go into Crane, and 3K will leave him back turned if he attempts 6BB, allowing you to possibly go for 3KKB. It loses some of its usefulness if he knows you can punish him for doing anything other than just 6B - make sure to punish him when you can.
- While 236KK does technically give you a guaranteed back grab, the timing of it is extremely precise and can be affected by spacing, making the "guaranteed" part of that back grab a bit iffy. However, if you know they're going to duck after you block it, 1B will do around the same amount of damage as a back throw (63 - 75 damage). Note that it can be extremely hard to even get the grab to come off correctly, and with random camera shifts, it's possible that you'll end up whiffing an accidental 3B.
- If you're expecting a 44B, B6 or 2A will stuff it at medium range, or if they're farther off, 6B. If they're at close range when they attempt it, wait for them to come back in, step to your left, and 1B for maximum punishment.
- To touch on Crane's auto-evade - the only match where you'll have every vertical auto-evaded, is the match where you become complacent with your verticals
It's not an overwhelmingly difficult match-up for Siegfried by any means, and it has small problems more than anything. Siegfried's range (6B, B6, agA, SCH A+B, 2A) and ability to control space give him the advantage in this match-up - don't squander that advantage by being overconfident.
mikosu's addendum: In general, spacing out Yun-Seong should be his focus. His rush-in tools are usually unsafe, like 44A. My advice against Siegfried would be for Yun-Seong to stay close most of the time. Siegfried's job is to make that hard.
- Keep your stances simple with Yun-Seong. He has quite the arsenal of tech crouches and jumps to annoy you with, and can make utilizing Siegfried's stances more trouble than it's worth.
- To explain the above point: iWS (B) on block is interesting in this match-up - SCH K will trade with K, but will beat AA. However, SCH A will beat K, but clash with the first hit of AA and lose to the second, as well as lose entirely to 44B. SCH B will beat 44B, but lose to both K and AA. Entering Chief Hold from iWS (B) creates an interesting rock-paper-scissors type of mixup for both of you - I recommended caution when using iWS (B).
- Yun-Seong can close distance with 66A, 44A, 11A, and 9B+K. The first three of those are able to be auto-Guard Impacted with SBH, and 9B+K is steppable and runnable to your left.
- Yun-Seong can Soul Crush you very fast if you take to blocking the entire match. At maximum range, 66A+B is unpunishable and will crush in 8 - as is 66B. 11B, 33B, 66A, 6A+B, 3B - all are similar in that they are either unpunishable or barely punishable for Siegfried, crush in under 10, and are extremely linear (save 66A). Make sure to step or Guard Impact the linear moves - don't just sit there and take it.
- 6B is a safe, linear poke that he can enter stance from. He's at -10 on block if he doesn't enter stance from it, though 3K or 4K will stuff any further offense if he does go into Crane, and 3K will leave him back turned if he attempts 6BB, allowing you to possibly go for 3KKB. It loses some of its usefulness if he knows you can punish him for doing anything other than just 6B - make sure to punish him when you can.
- While 236KK does technically give you a guaranteed back grab, the timing of it is extremely precise and can be affected by spacing, making the "guaranteed" part of that back grab a bit iffy. However, if you know they're going to duck after you block it, 1B will do around the same amount of damage as a back throw (63 - 75 damage). Note that it can be extremely hard to even get the grab to come off correctly, and with random camera shifts, it's possible that you'll end up whiffing an accidental 3B.
- If you're expecting a 44B, B6 or 2A will stuff it at medium range, or if they're farther off, 6B. If they're at close range when they attempt it, wait for them to come back in, step to your left, and 1B for maximum punishment.
- To touch on Crane's auto-evade - the only match where you'll have every vertical auto-evaded, is the match where you become complacent with your verticals
- If you've ever had your stance killed by somebody just because they blocked a move that transitions, you know how annoying and frustrating that can be. However, we get to inflict that annoyance on Yun-Seong in this match-up. Below is a list of the two kicks Siegfried can utilize to kill Crane entrances, both of which will never lose - only trade - to a Crane move from a blocked transition.
Y = You can interrupt
N = You cannot interrupt; will trade with Yun-Seong
It's not an overwhelmingly difficult match-up for Siegfried by any means, and it has small problems more than anything. Siegfried's range (6B, B6, agA, SCH A+B, 2A) and ability to control space give him the advantage in this match-up - don't squander that advantage by being overconfident.
mikosu's addendum: In general, spacing out Yun-Seong should be his focus. His rush-in tools are usually unsafe, like 44A. My advice against Siegfried would be for Yun-Seong to stay close most of the time. Siegfried's job is to make that hard.
- Thread starter
- #95
Slayer_X64
Siegfried SA Moderator
I think its time we invested into this once again. i'll begin work tomorrow.