Siegfried Anti Matchup Discussion: Building A Master Guide

the entire amy section will be getting a complete re-write once i finish ivy...its not satisfying enough. my knowledge of amy is inadequate at the moment...
 
*Update*
Sophie guide draft is almost prepped, got a couple of ideas that shake up Sophies core tricks and actually kill them BECAUSE of TAS B's power!
 
i like the sound of that synraii!

>.< i still havent finished the anti ivy guide yet. been so busy lately, but i promise its coming! in the mean time i might squeeze in a character that requires less effort and testing(a matchup i already know well)
 
You do realise that if you claim sole credit for the anti Ivy guide I'll do to you what happens to Kilik when Asura gets blocked, ya? ^_~
 
lol the credit goes to every1 in the SA, all i care about is that the information exists.

and synraii...ur welcome to try =P i'll just be like *ONLINE GODLINESS* and asura will instantly be +8 on grd
 
Asta:
-at close range, utilize a variety of TC moves to avoid as many attempts at grabbing as you can. to further avoid it always mash grapple break and if you must, duck although this is not recommended due to both bullrush(66K) and 2A_B+G
-try spacing asta to about mid range. this forces him to step in so that his grabs connect, but it also prevents him from spacing you into oblivion.
-be very cautious about how you use high attacks versus asta. 66K will TC them, and u can guarantee they'll use it often. yes this means you'll be relying on 3A to kill step instead of agA, and you wont be getting very fancy in the frame trap department either.
-beware common asta frame traps such as 4{B} and 3{A+B}.
-look out for asta B+K. its neutral, but asta's fastest move is 6A(i12) so u wont be able to interrupt it unless u TC. problem is bullrush is faster than most of your TC's, so you're limited to 3B
-watch his zoning for opportunities to close the gap(ie A+B/44A grd). this wont always guarantee getting off an attack, especially because of bullrush's constant reminder, but it will help close in on asta's position to potentially set up an offensive
-after 66{K} sieg 3A, 3B, 3K or 1K will kill most of the things asta can whip out. it also gives you opportunity to pressure astaroth.
-3KA/3K{A}: TC underneath the second hit with 3B, 4K, ect. it makes one less thing to worry about.
-4A+B/4{A+B}: best thing u can do really is step back out of range, or jump to reduce damage and avoid the AT. interrupting is risky due to 4A+B's presence. do not side step, this move has incredible tracking.
-44B: step G immedietly as you see this move. there is a chance u will eat step kill if they cancel it quickly, but treat it as if sieg 236B cancelled.
-jump and duck his mid~low/mid high strings

this will also be put in the top post. anything else added, changed or removed later will be in the first post, but not this post.
 
well now i might have to go play around with maxi and mitsurugi for a bit, i've taken a sudden interest in writing character guides for them. also might cover nightmare, since i know him well enough. maybe i'll look through the nightmare SA, see what else i can dig up.
 
I can give you a big tip for anti Maxi right now: If you ever block Maxi 3B, don't wait, don't pass go, just retaliate immediately with your own 3B. Why? It beats ALL Maxi's right outer stance options except WL (wavering light = B+K auto GI for high and mid verticals) and left stance movement which will evade your retaliatory 3B but once he evades it your SRSH A should beat any options he can do from Left Inner stance. Even if he does the wavering light auto GI on you, you can still reGI after you get auto GIed lol. Once you get this down, Maxi will never want to attempt 3B on you again.

Edit: My bad, didn't realize that 3B is 17 frames. I thought it was 16 frames like it was in SC2, oh well. Well in this case, 3B won't beat out RO B. But still, since Maxi's best options after 3B are RO A and RO K, 3B beats both of those. RO B will beat your 3B but if he does RO B and you block, you're at +15.
 
*Update*
Sophie guide draft is almost prepped, got a couple of ideas that shake up Sophies core tricks and actually kill them BECAUSE of TAS B's power!
I swear that matchup's 80-20 in Sophie's favor... the spacing you normally want to be at for Sieg is like just outside of Sophie's optimal spacing at best. The thing is, Sophie has a much better movement and has a TC step catcher to match a:G:A. Sophie can dance around the limits of Sieg's range pretty safely because 3B won't launch and anything Sieg misses at range except a:G:A can be punished hardcore. If Sieg tries to play an up-close(r) stance mixup/evade game the risk/reward is overwhelmingly in Sophie's favor. A backstep using 4B+K is asking for a tipped TAS B. RSH transitions are easily interrupted, and even if Sophie does hesitate, she has horrific punishment if she guess correctly that makes using either K or B just not worth the risk.

If any stance evade is remotely worth it, it's the 2_8B+K transitions from seemingly guaranteed interrupts. This will catch a greedy Sophie constantly going for that sweet AS/TAS B :4 "punish." But all you get is 30 damage into decent oki. Whoop-dee do. Sophie's BB does 28 damage, to put things in perspective. Speaking of which, this move will hit you out of a chief hold step if you do it too early, too late, or to the wrong side. I'm fairly certain it won't step BB period even at -6, and after almost anything that's blocked, Sieg can do nothing about a BB. He can barely step it normally, and blocking it hardly gives Sieg any advantage unless you're up close (like in her AA range... where you shouldn't be anyway). Your only hope is doing this transition after getting hit (leaving you at -4 or better, usually), or after a 2K or 3K, and doing it enough may make Sophie want to do moves that leave her open to a juicy CH 3B. Unless she 66As. You're fucked if she 66As.

Idk I just can't think of very many situations where Sieg can force a mix up other than standard weak safe mid/unsafe mid/throw, and those I can think of are high risk low reward.

All of Siegfried's little pokes don't matter if Sophie gets in a couple hits, and going for big damage is too risky. Your only chance is having excellent ring positioning: if the edge is anywhere nearby, it's Sophie's hits that don't matter.

Krazie does that work with Sophie's 236A (i18) as well?
 
Fighting Sophie with Sieg is like using an Axe against a Cruise missile - either way, you're fucked. >_<
Honestly my strategy isn't perfect by a long way, but it's something to go on.
 
hey synraii thought i'd let you know im learning sophie to help you out with the guide. maybe u, me and signia can start goin over stuff in PM's.

as for maxi, i'll start going through things with CD when im ready, i've actually been neglecting this task.

i need to get back to finishing ivy. i stopped suddenly for no reason, so i need to get her done.
 
I'd like to weigh in on Sig vs Cass.

First, my credentials: 2 years of playing vs Jian, and a few months of playing vs KDZ back when he used Sig on a tournament level.

1) Frame Traps: Hhahahahahaha no seriously, good luck. If you put cass into a situation where you want to throw out a mid vertical in a frametrap, you will get owned by either FC3B (in the case of 44(B) or B:4), or 4B+K in the case of a:G:A. 4B+K is AMAZING vs Sig, I will throw it out at tip range because I find Sig's will poke with B6 or a:G:A at that range.. 4B+K deals with both, by auto-GI or TC. Keep in mind 4B+K is negative on a non-agi hit. FC3B is also negative on normal hit. They are both punishable on block, so bait them out and punish them.

If you do choose to use frametraps; then make sure you use throws and body attacks...but don't be so certain they won't get agi'd by FC3B... 3A does, 3K does... lots of stuff does. My advice? Don't use frametraps.

2) USE 2_8B+K!!!! Cass' anti-step sucks balls. Her best answer to this, ironically, is 1A. 66A can sometimes be stepped by this. Her anti-step is THAT BAD. 3A, K is launch punishable; so be aware. 44A has shitty range.

A good Cass will adjust with AA and more throw attempts; but its VERY hard for her to adjust when you can force her to anti-step wisely. Also, this can make the second hit of 236AB whiff, and you can getup and punish her with WR B. Good Cass' will also adjust by throwing out single B's as pokes instead of BB's.

3) Speaking of WR B, unlike Sophie she can't just AA you on block, so if you can iWRB or find situations to use it, I HIGHLY suggest you force it.

4) 3B is pretty pointless in this matchup. Cass doesn't throw out alot of highs, and she gets a free 236B if shes on point, or at least and AA which gives her +5.

5) 1K puts her at -1 on hit but forces you into crouch. 2A will stuff your WR options, so adjust accordingly. She might also 1K again or go for a command throw if she thinks your going to freeze up.

I think the match is 6-4 in Cass' favor, because Sig CAN'T keep her out, and she plays well with him at mid range, his strongest range.

-Idle
 
I'd like to weigh in on Sig vs Cass.

First, my credentials: 2 years of playing vs Jian, and a few months of playing vs KDZ back when he used Sig on a tournament level.

1) Frame Traps: Hhahahahahaha no seriously, good luck. If you put cass into a situation where you want to throw out a mid vertical in a frametrap, you will get owned by either FC3B (in the case of 44(B) or B:4), or 4B+K in the case of a:G:A. 4B+K is AMAZING vs Sig, I will throw it out at tip range because I find Sig's will poke with B6 or a:G:A at that range.. 4B+K deals with both, by auto-GI or TC. Keep in mind 4B+K is negative on a non-agi hit. FC3B is also negative on normal hit. They are both punishable on block, so bait them out and punish them.

If you do choose to use frametraps; then make sure you use throws and body attacks...but don't be so certain they won't get agi'd by FC3B... 3A does, 3K does... lots of stuff does. My advice? Don't use frametraps.

2) USE 2_8B+K!!!! Cass' anti-step sucks balls. Her best answer to this, ironically, is 1A. 66A can sometimes be stepped by this. Her anti-step is THAT BAD. 3A, K is launch punishable; so be aware. 44A has shitty range.

A good Cass will adjust with AA and more throw attempts; but its VERY hard for her to adjust when you can force her to anti-step wisely. Also, this can make the second hit of 236AB whiff, and you can getup and punish her with WR B. Good Cass' will also adjust by throwing out single B's as pokes instead of BB's.

3) Speaking of WR B, unlike Sophie she can't just AA you on block, so if you can iWRB or find situations to use it, I HIGHLY suggest you force it.

4) 3B is pretty pointless in this matchup. Cass doesn't throw out alot of highs, and she gets a free 236B if shes on point, or at least and AA which gives her +5.

5) 1K puts her at -1 on hit but forces you into crouch. 2A will stuff your WR options, so adjust accordingly. She might also 1K again or go for a command throw if she thinks your going to freeze up.

I think the match is 6-4 in Cass' favor, because Sig CAN'T keep her out, and she plays well with him at mid range, his strongest range.

-Idle
just some quick jumbled notes to throw on. i'll organize it later. hopefully u guys can add more, and correct me where im wrong, my anti cass is slightly limited. thx for the help idle.

keep in mind at close range, while cass may be faster than sieg, sieg can step G around alot of the stuff she may throw out, like BB, BK, ect to her right(correct me if im wrong, but i think you step to her right, aka your left?), giving gud opportunities for pressure and punishment. your only worries at this range are 2A, AA, which will both shut down a step G heavy pressure game. however if cass decides to AA, u can try abusing 4K to TC for free damage, advantage on hit, and possible CH for a mixup on wake up. 4K is a nice move in this matchup.

cass FC 3B and 4B+K are absolutely a nightmare for siegfried. not only does cass simply getting up and executing FC 3B on wakeup kill alot of siegs wake up options, it also makes it more difficult in general to use most of the vertical moves sieg happens to be dependant on. to avoid this, throw out more a+ka2A on wake up, and make her think twice about throwing out 4B+K at ur optimal range by usin 2A, 3A(beware 4A+K) or 6B, or applying pressure by box stepping in for a grab mixup. dont forget, 4B+K is launcher punishable. punish with 3B SCH K, then 6B+K SRSH for an A+B forced block or an SRSH K_B mixup, the usual stuff. watch her 2B+K. even if she stops aGIing you with FC3B and 4B+K, this will usually go under moves such as b6.

she may outmatch sieg at mid range, but he can still outpoke her at tip, and she has a tough time punishing you from that distance. with a good step and spacing game, u wont keep her out, but u can play hit and run with 2A. if she attempts any 22_88B+K to break the distance(so long as the distance is already present), you can whiff punish with 1B or 3B, then use the wakeup to close the distance for a 50-50 or break the distance in hope of re-starting long range poking games. at mid-long range, cass can also throw out 8B+K. the ground stun off 8B+K gives her a free AA, so be sure to jump it. however also beware cass has good step, particularily her backstep. this can allow her to step in on whiffed moves and punish, or in the very least apply pressure. thusly u need to know ur tip range, and u need to read ur opponent well. at range, utilize 4B+K's backstep well. you wont keep her out for long, but the goal is to keep her out for as long as possible. beware of 22_88B+K and 66A+B when attempting to backstep/space. you may be forced to step to the side if u begin eating these alot. that means once u've got comfortable distance, dont try to go overboard on things.

at close range use and abuse WR {B} mixups. SCH K frame traps cassy, SCH 1/2{B} punishes GI's, and delaying SCH B's input can re-track and prevent her from step-2Aing u.

try to take advantage of some of her frame trap situations like WR K by creating space between you and her or by TJing, TCing or even possibly stepping.

make sure u punish cass well, and keep the risks to a minimum. its best if sieg plays on the safer side of things, try to maintain a strong poking and baiting game in this matchup. however a good step/GI game is almost essential to avoid getting crushed while ur turtling. if you find yourself being harrassed by B+K{B}, step it for whiff punish once or twice, and wait for cass to throw out B+KB so u can punish with 3B.

punish her 236{B} with K or a+k{A} if you can buffer it. punish 236AB with WR K.

avoid throwing out alot of highs or linear moves. TC moves are good, so are lows, but using lows will likely bait her into using 8B+K or B+KB/{B} so you have to be prepared for that.

all in all, while the matchup is in cass's favour, this isnt all that bad for siegfried. just keep your cool, and use your head. this is definately winnable. just keep it simple.

Siggy vs Siggy punishment vid coming soon...
 
keep in mind at close range, while cass may be faster than sieg, sieg can step G around alot of the stuff she may throw out, like BB, BK, ect to her right(correct me if im wrong, but i think you step to her right, aka your left?), giving gud opportunities for pressure and punishment. your only worries at this range are 2A, AA, which will both shut down a step G heavy pressure game. however if cass decides to AA, u can try abusing 4K to TC for free damage, advantage on hit, and possible CH for a mixup on wake up. 4K is a nice move in this matchup.

Keep in mind two things with this:

1) This puts you at risk of dealing with Cass' throw game, since if an opponent reads you doing this your going to have to make throw break guesses. In my experience, Cass gets free A throws all day because nobody wants to get B command thrown.

2) Isnt 4K 236(B) punishable on block?

all in all, while the matchup is in cass's favour, this isnt all that bad for siegfried. just keep your cool, and use your head. this is definately winnable. just keep it simple.

-Idle
 
nope. 4K is only -6 on block. good enough that if you find she's throwing out stepable stuff enough after it u can take a risk by stepping her. and also good enough that B+K SBH will aGI most of her anti step for pressure. of course it does put you at risk for low grabs, or eating CH 236{B}, but if its successful, it provides strong pressure, and possible wake-up options.
 
RE: Cass stuff- Good stuff.

To highlight your point once again: keep it simple as Sig. Getting fancy is a surefire way to get killed against Cass. I liken the match to a staring contest- whoever flinches first, loses. In this case, flinching is whoever has to resort to unconventional tactics in order to deal with the opponents pressure. Cass is at advantage because her normal gameplan works against Sig's, so the onus is on him to make that first layer mindgame adjustment.

-Idle
 
Let's talk about anti-Zasalamel. Colored coded for your Siegfrieding convenience.


- Learn to duck his 6BA and 6AB. Against a competent Zas, the match is over if you consistently do not duck these.
- Zasalamel is extremely linear. As in, you can 8Wayrun - not step - a lot of his horizontals.
- iWS B is great against him. SCH K trades with his B+K...which does no damage in IV. (not applicable to BD)
- Be warry of placing him in FC with moves like SSH B or SCH kB. Zas's WS K beats any retaliation and puts you side or back turned for a not fun mixup. B4 is fine as long as you realize he has that option.
- B6, 4K, 2A, 3K, etc; Safe pokes are awesome against anyone. But they're even better against Zas because he doesn't have many options to create guaranteed mixups if he blocks them.
- His 9A is low. If you ever see Zas jump when you have a sliver of health, 9K immidiately.

Below are some thing he can ALWAYS interrupt.

Interruptable Strings
  • a+kA, SCH KK - B+K, 0 damage
  • a+kA, SCH A - AA, 26 damage
  • SSA [A] (on hit!), SRSH A/B/K/A+B - B+K, 0 damage
  • SSH B, SBH K - WS K Throw/Mid Mixup, Variable Damage
  • Close Range B4, anything except K - WS K Throw/Mid Mixup, Variable Damage
  • Mid Range B4, anything - FC 2A, 12 damage
Zasalamel really isn't a hard fight for anyone, granting that you know him well. Of course, as Omega as shown, a Zas that knows his opponent as well as his opponent knows himself can still be a force to be reckoned with.
 
My opinion about Siegfried-Cassandra Match up.

1) Frame Traps: Hhahahahahaha no seriously, good luck. If you put cass into a situation where you want to throw out a mid vertical in a frametrap, you will get owned by either FC3B (in the case of 44(B) or B:4), or 4B+K in the case of a:G:A. 4B+K is AMAZING vs Sig, I will throw it out at tip range because I find Sig's will poke with B6 or a:G:A at that range.. 4B+K deals with both, by auto-GI or TC. Keep in mind 4B+K is negative on a non-agi hit. FC3B is also negative on normal hit. They are both punishable on block, so bait them out and punish them.

If you do choose to use frametraps; then make sure you use throws and body attacks...but don't be so certain they won't get agi'd by FC3B... 3A does, 3K does... lots of stuff does. My advice? Don't use frametraps.

If I remember good, 3A works well against Cassandra's FC3B. Mix up it with 1K and 22B. Or simply get out, 4+B+K or 4. Replace yourself, do poking/zoning again.

2) USE 2_8B+K!!!! Cass' anti-step sucks balls. Her best answer to this, ironically, is 1A. 66A can sometimes be stepped by this. Her anti-step is THAT BAD. 3A, K is launch punishable; so be aware. 44A has shitty range.

Totally agree. By the way, stance transition works well against Cassandra. For the same reason.

3) Speaking of WR B, unlike Sophie she can't just AA you on block, so if you can iWRB or find situations to use it, I HIGHLY suggest you force it.
Agree

4) 3B is pretty pointless in this matchup. Cass doesn't throw out alot of highs, and she gets a free 236B if shes on point, or at least and AA which gives her +5.

Totally disagree. "3B" and "pointless" can't be in the same sentence, even against Sophitia. NEVER be afraid about punishment, use it correctly, your opponent have to FEAR this move. If he doesn't, your Siegfried will be pointless...

[Coming soon, a video about 3B...]

5) 1K puts her at -1 on hit but forces you into crouch. 2A will stuff your WR options, so adjust accordingly. She might also 1K again or go for a command throw if she thinks your going to freeze up.

I can't check, but I think WSK must beat 2A in this setup.

because Sig CAN'T keep her out, and she plays well with him at mid range, his strongest range.

-Idle

I disagree again. Siegfried is one of the best character at mid range. In the other hand Cassandra is weak and linear at the same range. Mid range is the key.

About the MU; Probably 6-4 for Cassandra (because of the damages). Maybe 5-5....


Other remarks :

1B is pointless here, except whether you're able to use it a tip range to stay safer.
Punish 236[B ] is very important (a+k[A])
Take care about whiff punish.
If you re-GI correctly after arectly after a GI, Cassandra's 33B doesn't work against Siegfried.
3A is one of your best friend.
About Cassandra's throw games : she has one of the worst throw range of the game. in the other hand siegfried is one of the hardest character to throw. If you play correctly, she will rarely be able to throw.

IMO, the best strategy is SG pressure. Use safe move like agA, B6, 9B, 2B, B4, 22B, 44B, WSB, SCHB, SBH B, and a lot of stance transition with a safe exit. Her SG game is really bad. Avoid the close range game. When she has to attack you because of the red disco light, press 3B...
 
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