Siegfried Anti Matchup Discussion: Building A Master Guide

hotnikkelz

johNNy blaZe
Quick question....why would 3A be a best friend vs Cass, when she can punish it with 236B? It's extremely hard to use 3A at tip most of the time. Cass gains space quite easily.
 

Nirf

[10] Knight
I can try to help a bit with the Voldo section, although I'm a bit short of Sieg knowledge. Maybe could take the form of you guys putting forth some scenarios, moves, etc and I could talk about how Voldo deals.
The matchup overall I am not qualified to say what it is, I feel like Voldo has a slight edge (a slight no brainer since Voldo is a higher tier character) but I don't know if its enough to be 6:4. Some things to think about:

- 3B is punishable to Voldo's AA. If you go for followups immediately, then you can also eat 6BB which is more damage, advantage, and now Voldo's in blind stance too. I'm not sure if Sieg eats all hits as CH when in stance, can someone answer this?
- Voldo can't punish like the sisters, but he's still got very good punishment: 66:B is i16, very good range, mid, leads to almost 60 damage and mixups (most optimally, in my opinion). You can allow back into your game stuff that's -14 or -15 agaisnt Voldo, but something like 6B (-17 on block) I would stay away from.
- Trying to use spacing to beat Voldo is dangerous, he has some very long range moves. I.e. trying to use 22B (or 88B, i forget which, the one that goes into SSH) and then the A+B low followup to stay out of range is effective vs many characters, but not vs Voldo, 236A+B does very well vs this transition.
- Voldo is very steppable, so TRY to step.
- he cannot interrupt WSB into SCH K at all. It requires an i12, and Voldo has nothing faster than i13 in normal stance. So I highly recommend this vs Voldo to start pressure, stance roulette, etc. I actually don't see this move very often from Sieg's that I play.
- be careful with aga, Voldo is TC about half the game
- Against some of his common setups for BS shenanigans: i.e. 1{K} on block, Voldo is in BS at -9 and will often go for either BS A+B or BS 1A. I'm pretty sure 1B beats both of these for a ton of damage (NOte I'm not sure if 1B beats BS A+B because of timing issues or because it counts as a "stab attack", I think the latter because I've never parried 1B that I remember but I could be wrong).
- If Voldo does 236B or 236A+B and you block low, you get a free 1B in either case. It is 100% critical that you take this 1B and don't do something weaker. The massive damage from 1B will discourage Voldo from doing these moves, and that will really make his 2A+B~ game harder to run
- Let me re-emphasize the last point cause its so important: if you don't optimize damage against these CR followups when you guess correctly, you are seriously, seriously, seriously shooting yourself in the foot and are basically inviting Voldo's 2A+B to walk all over you, which it may do even if you do play correctly against it.
- but do be careful with whoring 1B when it's not appropriate, it is in theory punishable to 66:B (-16) but I'm not really sure how practical it is in a match, I think its doable if you are very attentive but if you aren't expecting it I don't think there's enough blockstun there that it would be easy to punish.
- oh, and learn what 4A looks like, be aware that Voldo is neutral after this move and in BS, so he will almost for sure always try to continue attacking.

In summary, my best recommendation on offense is to use WRB, and on defense to make sure you punish his CR game whenever possible to limit the damage from 2A+B (his best move).
 

Heaton

A Soul in the Purgatory
3B is punishable to Voldo's AA. If you go for followups immediately, then you can also eat 6BB which is more damage, advantage, and now Voldo's in blind stance too. I'm not sure if Sieg eats all hits as CH when in stance, can someone answer this?

Only SBH gives all counterhits. Also, Siegfried's 3(B) is simply 6BB punishable regardless of followups. Siegfried can't even 3(B) ~ B+K to try to tech crouch and aGI the two. So basically, don't use 3B recklessly against Voldo.

I can try to help a bit with the Voldo section, although I'm a bit short of Sieg knowledge. Maybe could take the form of you guys putting forth some scenarios, moves, etc and I could talk about how Voldo deals.

A few scenarios.
  • Siegfried's grab range is greater than most of the cast's, and therefore, I always try to go for back grabs against Voldo. What's Voldo's general response to grab happy players, especially when he's BT?
  • I do iWS (B), SCH K. Both are blocked. What are you generally going to do to stop the next attack (fastest attack is SCH K @ i16)?
  • You use Voldo's 4A, and it's blocked. What's your personal favorite follow up?
 

Nirf

[10] Knight
6BB is NCC, so no its not. The first hit will land, and the second hit will be blocked provided Sieg doesn't go for anything after. So in general Voldo's will use AA, which isn't as bad.

Voldo's response to grab is simple: keep attacking. Almost all his mids TC. So in FF (facing forward), suppose A+B gets blocked, if I smell grab I just do another A+B. As for the back turned grabs, let me mention in case you have played very few Voldos that Voldo can break grabs in BS (blind stance, Voldo players tend to call it that rather than BT). The most common anti grab in BS would be BS 1A which dodges a ton of shit. But there's others too; you can just AA (its i11, so can beat out grabs provided frame disadvantage isn't too bad), you can 3K (i15 TC mid), you can 3B (TC, and on CH gives 80+ damage and excellent oki). But BS1A is something you see a lot of because it covers so much ground (beats highs, grabs, step, neutral, many horizontal mids like Sieg 3A).

That's a good example you gave with iWSB, I'm not sure cause like I said I see it (too) rarely. Doesn't 2A beat everything though? Need to know more about Sieg's options.

4A, well it depends hugely vs what character. E.g. Asta's just knee this for some reason every time, so actually I like to just do nothing and punish the knee. I haven't seen it versus Sieg, it would really depend on what the Sieg likes. A lot of Sieg's I would expect to get happy with the 3B at this point, which admits the same exact strategy as I use vs the knee. Another strategy is to do BS 3K, it's an i15 TC mid and so I don't think there's much Sieg can do about this (depends on the spacing and whether Sieg's 3K can reach). I really have to see the spacing more in a match against a decent Sieg, e.g. I'm not sure if Sieg is typically within 3B's launch range after a 4A. If he is, then 3B should be used moderately to discourage BSAA, BS1A, BS6A, any slow mid (like BS 3B, etc) and in fact a surprising number of Voldo's moves out of BS. When you get the 3B in launch range on CH, the damage is pretty beastly. If you use this sparingly, Voldo will stick to things that beat 3B, like BB which aren't as painful, and then you can just block those. Watch out for the grab though, I think it beats 3B (cause of the side step).

Like with a lot of Voldo's pressure strings, there isn't an easy answer, both players will vary their strategies through the match to get the best of each other.
 

Heaton

A Soul in the Purgatory
6BB is NCC, so no its not. The first hit will land, and the second hit will be blocked provided Sieg doesn't go for anything after. So in general Voldo's will use AA, which isn't as bad.

Ah, you're right. Training mode plays with my mind sometimes.

Voldo's response to grab is simple: keep attacking. Almost all his mids TC.

I've noticed this...I do often get my grab attemps TC, which does get annoying. But a 68 damage 50/50 mixup isn't too bad...then again, that's what CH 3(B) SCH A+B gets me, too, so maybe I should look back at that...

That's a good example you gave with iWSB, I'm not sure cause like I said I see it (too) rarely. Doesn't 2A beat everything though? Need to know more about Sieg's options.

It does, but I was just throwing that out in the open for curiosity's sake. Most of the time Siegfrieds won't use SCH K, they'll usually finish with either SCH KK or k(B), if they use it at all. Voldo is able to step the SCH K to both sides easily - however this just sets up for SCH A. This is just theory fighter, though, and I'll be here all night if I try to divulge every last option.

4A, well it depends hugely vs what character. E.g. Asta's just knee this for some reason every time, so actually I like to just do nothing and punish the knee. I haven't seen it versus Sieg, it would really depend on what the Sieg likes. A lot of Sieg's I would expect to get happy with the 3B at this point, which admits the same exact strategy as I use vs the knee. Another strategy is to do BS 3K, it's an i15 TC mid and so I don't think there's much Sieg can do about this (depends on the spacing and whether Sieg's 3K can reach). I really have to see the spacing more in a match against a decent Sieg, e.g. I'm not sure if Sieg is typically within 3B's launch range after a 4A. If he is, then 3B should be used moderately to discourage BSAA, BS1A, BS6A, any slow mid (like BS 3B, etc) and in fact a surprising number of Voldo's moves out of BS. When you get the 3B in launch range on CH, the damage is pretty beastly. If you use this sparingly, Voldo will stick to things that beat 3B, like BB which aren't as painful, and then you can just block those. Watch out for the grab though, I think it beats 3B (cause of the side step).

Voldo VS Siegfried
4A blocked, A+G_B+G against block, 3B - Siegfried gets 68 damage off the CH combo
4A blocked, AA against block, 3B - Siegfried gets 68 damage off the CH combo
4A blocked, BS 3K against block, 3B - Voldo gets 19 damage off the CH BS 3K
4A blocked, BS 3K against block, 3K - Trade - Voldo gets 19 damage, Siegfried gets 20

The spacing doesn't seem to make any difference on any of these. I tried multiple different distances on each, multiple times.

In essence, blocking 4A generally puts Siegfried in a sort of advantageous situation.
 

Heaton

A Soul in the Purgatory
Raphael VS Siegfried
UNDER CONSTRUCTION. SLAYER, DON'T COPY THIS YET.
- A good strategy I've heard to defend against Prep is to simply duck. It ducks Prep BB, you can react to Prep A+B in time to stand, you can react to Prep K in time to stand up and jump it, and Prep A hits you for 8 damage and leaves him at -6, and you in FC - a generally preferable situation for Siegfried. If he goes for SEA or VE, you can (CH) WS AA him out of it.
- Learn to GI his 44B on reaction if he throws it out. And if you're in close range, step to his left and punish the whiff with 1B.
- 3(B) ~ Prep A is a frame trap against Siegfried - K will trade, but it's not one at all in your favor. 55 vs 14
- Learn to duck the second hit of VE A and punish it accordingly - it leaves him at +2 on block, which is enough for him to keep pestering you.
- Raphael is particularly good at killing linear stances with his 4A, which a good number of Raphaels will tell you is its only use, if even that. It sidesteps heavily and is high, however, so make good use of Siegfried's horizontals and tech crouches if you enter a stance.
- No, you cannot beat Raphael by sidestepping and 8Wayrunning the entire match. Don't underestimate his ability to kill step; while it's not supremely powerful, his tools are enough if you become complacent. For a list of his anti-step, click here.
- Raphael's okizime is basically 66A+B/A+BB/1K. The first two are rollable in opposite directions, and 1K hits rollers.
- Raphael is excellent at spacing, and can punish your whiffs at what seems like inconceivable distances with 236B and 2A+B. Be certain of your target before you strike.
- On the flipside, his whiffs are also very punishable, and usually leave him side or back turned. 236B whiffed can get you 1B depending on the distance.
- Raphael has a nice Soul Crush game, as well. He has many moves that crush in under 15, and are safe against Siegfried. Examples include 11B, 88B, 66K, 66A+B.
 

Nirf

[10] Knight
Heaton, the thing is you can't just be whoring out 3B because its punishable. So like against Asta, I can just do 4A into block. After 4A Voldo is out of grab range and Sieg doesn't have any good lows from neutral so it's not such a menacing situation if Sieg doesn't do 3B. Furthermore, the 3K/3K trade doesn't just end with an extra point of damage for Siegfried, this needs to be tested but given that Voldo 3K is +6 on hit and Sieg 3K is -3 on hit I imagine after the hits trade Voldo is now at advantage (and still in BS). Finally, Voldo has really good step in BS, not to mention the evades. So, after 4A Voldo can stepG and take a whiff on things like 3B or 3K, and still guard against AGA. Or he can do an evade. Or he can step into his grab, which would evade a lot of stuff (probably even a lot of horizontals). Also Voldo has 66K, which is i16, 30 damage and knockdown. If I go for 66K and you 3K me, then you get 20 damage but now you're at -2 and Voldo is still in blind stance and now suddenly the situation is much more dire, you probably have to block and I get mixups. This isn't a big win for Sieg. Whereas if you go for 3B and I 66K, I know get oki on top of damage.

All this is on top of the fact that in a real match, I am the one who initiates 4A, I am a step ahead mentally. Basically I disagree with your assessment of Sieg having advantage after 4A. I've used 4A against many characters in real games and never do I feel like they are getting the upper hand with this transition. At the end of the day though 4A is not his #1 pressure tool, that honor falls on 2A+B, which is just an awesome move.
 

Heaton

A Soul in the Purgatory
I realize you can't be whoring out 3B - I wouldn't recommended ever doing that in any situation. The list I made was only a fraction of the options, but everything considered, 3B crushes most of your options except BS 3K. The 3K/BS 3K trade leaves Voldo side turned, as well, which showed some inconsistency into which stance he actually entered after the trade. Also considering 3K VS 66K, on hit, I am at -2...but I can also finish the string (3KKB), which leaves me in a bit of a mind game as to whether I'll complete the string or not. All things considered, however, as I said it's only sort of advantageous for Siegfried. Looking on paper and going by damage and frames alone, I'd barely give it to Siegfried in this situation. But that does not account for stepping, oki, GI, etc; to take every single option into account to analyze who truly has the advantage here would be frivolous for all the options considered. But at the very least, one has to be aware those options exist. Opinion also plays a part in this as well, depending on what each person will consider "advantageous" or not.

And on 2A+B. I'm not familiar with Voldo's actual options from it, other than I'm usually fucked if I get hit with it. Could you explain its uses and applications for me so I could think up some scenarios?
 

Pantocrator

[10] Knight
Quick question....why would 3A be a best friend vs Cass, when she can punish it with 236B? It's extremely hard to use 3A at tip most of the time. Cass gains space quite easily.

Good question.

Beacause :

- The safe dimension is not the only one to consider the potential of a move in a M-U
-236B is not a too hard punishment
-Your opponent has to confirm the range, that makes the punishment more difficult and risky (236B is 3B punishable)
- It break almost of her crusher move. TC, FC3B, B+K....

Of course you don't have to spam this move. But use it to calm down her crushers at close and close-mid range.
 

Heaton

A Soul in the Purgatory
The Apprentice VS Siegfried

- Apprentice's lows aren't too strong, and he doesn't have many of them. 44K is i31, but can lead to about 45 damage on hit, and is safe on block. 236B is alright damage wise (28) and can ring you out if your back is to the edge, but is extremely linear (it's literally a line of lightning) and not quick (i26). 2K is weak (15), puts him at disadvantage (-18/-6/-6 on GRD/HIT/CH), is slow (i24), and does not NC with its follow up. 2B+K can be good if they get the JF, but botching it leaves them at -14 on hit for only 10 damage.
- Of course, with weak lows, an Apprentice will probably want to put his grabs to good use. However, there is a problem against Siegfried. Siegfried's hitbox while guarding pushes Apprentice out of grab range - to grab you while you're guarding, he will have to use 66A+G_B+G instead. While not absolutely crippling, it will add a few frames to his throws, and also can save you from a grab attempt if he botches it.
- Speaking of throws, Apprentice can break any throw he wants (sans back throws?) with his A+B Force Break and leave you at neutral. This does not apply, however, to your FC A+G_B+G.
- From a bit farther than mid range, Apprentice can use 22A to step all the way in and put himself at an advantage. In addition to the move's range, it also tech crouches. I've found that SBH's auto GI is actually a pretty effective counter to this if you can count on your opponent abusing 22A. So just simply B+K, and if it didn't automatically SBH K, SBH K is guaranteed, or go for a SBH post GI mixup. B6 also works for stuffing it in time, as well.
- Apprentice can punish any retaliation after 3(B) on guard with CH 3K, which combos for around 55 damage with optimal Force Gauge. However, if you choose to do nothing after a blocked 3(B), he gets 10 damage and is -4 on hit. iWS (B) is not punishable at all, but iWS (B), SCH K will trade with A+B for 20/0 damage, and leave you both backturned.
- FC 8K:A is safe (-5/KND/KND on GRD/HIT/CH), does good damage (37), tech traps or combos with itself with optimal timing, can ring you out even if you're grounded, and is probably the easiest JF in the game to do. Be wary of when you put Apprentice into FC.
 

hotnikkelz

johNNy blaZe
I tihn
Good question.

Beacause :

- The safe dimension is not the only one to consider the potential of a move in a M-U
-236B is not a too hard punishment
-Your opponent has to confirm the range, that made the punishment more difficult and risky (236B is 3B punishable)
- It break almost of her crusher move. TC, FC3B, B+K....

Of course you don't have to spam this move. But use it to calm down her crushers at close and close-mid range.

I think you misunderstand me. A good Cass will never randomly use 236B (strictly for punishment), what I meant was that you recommended 3A as a staple vs her. Which means you're going to use it regularly and HOPE that it hits all the time. Considering that Cass will look to punish with 236B vs Sieg unless you use it as tip at all? times. How can one rely on that? If it's blocked you're going to get creamed. Against many characters the punishment is insubstantial, but vs Cass...that's quite a scary thing. 236B for Sophie is also one of the main reasons this matchup is hard as well.

I think as well you've assumed FC 3B is important for her in this matchup. It's not really good a move in my experience regardless of the autoGI, and is pretty unsafe and has poor hs and range. 2B+K is a much scarier move to deal with.
 

andur

[10] Knight
I tihn

I think you misunderstand me. A good Cass will never randomly use 236B (strictly for punishment), what I meant was that you recommended 3A as a staple vs her. Which means you're going to use it regularly and HOPE that it hits all the time. Considering that Cass will look to punish with 236B vs Sieg unless you use it as tip at all? times. How can one rely on that? If it's blocked you're going to get creamed. Against many characters the punishment is insubstantial, but vs Cass...that's quite a scary thing. 236B for Sophie is also one of the main reasons this matchup is hard as well.

I think as well you've assumed FC 3B is important for her in this matchup. It's not really good a move in my experience regardless of the autoGI, and is pretty unsafe and has poor hs and range. 2B+K is a much scarier move to deal with.

3A does work well against Cass. Unless its really point blank, it can be hard to judge whether or not I am close enough to punish it with 236B, and I don't want that blocked ever. And there's really not much time to make that judgement call, as it is punishing a -15 move with an i15 move that takes a moment to input. Cass 236B isn't huge damage either, 236{B} is the scary damaging one but its i16.

FC 3B isn't really all that effective against Siegfried I find. If I guess wrong with it, I'm stuck doing a slow move that is unsafe on block and negative frames on hit. Plus its range is kinda bad. 4B+K is the better anti-vertical auto-gi against Siegfried.

If you are spacing Cass out correctly, you should be at, or near, tip distance most of the time. Obviously if I'm right up in your face, you don't want to toss out 3A.
 

hotnikkelz

johNNy blaZe
Interesting, I still think if your opponent is looking to punish certain moves it's hella easy to punish 3A and the sorts. Also Cass' 236:B is actually i14. The frame data is wrong. She can punish blocked 2Ks with it, just as Sophie, and those are bs -14. Honestly it's quite hard to stay at tip range all the time in a matchup with the greeks. 236 is very intimidating and basically throws off most spacing games among a shitload of other stuff.
 

Pantocrator

[10] Knight
3A does work well against Cass. Unless its really point blank, it can be hard to judge whether or not I am close enough to punish it with 236B, and I don't want that blocked ever. And there's really not much time to make that judgement call, as it is punishing a -15 move with an i15 move that takes a moment to input. Cass 236B isn't huge damage either, 236{B} is the scary damaging one but its i16.

Exactly that I tried to say. Well done !

. Also Cass' 236:B is actually i14. The frame data is wrong. She can punish blocked 2Ks with it, .

FC236B is i14. Not 236B.
 

andur

[10] Knight
Interesting, I still think if your opponent is looking to punish certain moves it's hella easy to punish 3A and the sorts. Also Cass' 236:B is actually i14. The frame data is wrong. She can punish blocked 2Ks with it, just as Sophie, and those are bs -14. Honestly it's quite hard to stay at tip range all the time in a matchup with the greeks. 236 is very intimidating and basically throws off most spacing games among a shitload of other stuff.

The 236B/236{B} moves are 1 frame faster when done from crouching.
I played around a bit in training mode practicing punishing 3A. From close up, I can 236B or BB it. From a bit further back, AA works. But, if I'm slightly further back again, the 2nd hit of AA whiffs, and further back again AA whiffs entirely.
 

hotnikkelz

johNNy blaZe
Hmm, I didn't expect BB to hit. AA as punishment, ew. Not too threatening :) Isn't her BB i16? That means 3A is bs -15_16?
 

Koompbala

[09] Warrior
And on 2A+B. I'm not familiar with Voldo's actual options from it, other than I'm usually fucked if I get hit with it. Could you explain its uses and applications for me so I could think up some scenarios?

After 2A+B he has Calisto Rush 236

- from there he has many options such as A+K to make him chrouched BT so he can come up with BS WR B which TC's although no one uses that anymore.

- he also got the taunt cancel 236 A+B+K and can do anything from there although hes at -8 so thats something to keep in mind usually voldos follow up with another 2A+B.

- Now finally the moves from CR he got B which is the unsafe low -25 on block but that crap is still good breaks SG in 6 blocks (3BB also takes 6 blocks), he also got K which its that mid kick thats safe and hits grounded too that varied for me dont care to look into it further but that took 6-7 bloacks to break SG, and finally A+B which is the high Guard break which break SG in 4.5 blocks

So what are your options you could step A+B so you eliminate those possibilities if you do happen to guard what you could do next is block the next thing or GI even I believe timing to GI the K, and A+B are almost similar. So Basically what I'm trying to say is that Voldo is a dumb character
 

Heaton

A Soul in the Purgatory
It seems like the wisest option, then, is to space properly so that 2A+B does not become a problem. Otherwise it seems like the advantages Voldo gets are way too powerful in comparison to Siegfried's options to allow Siegfried to get anything beneficial out of it. Thanks for the input, old friend.

So Basically what I'm trying to say is that Voldo is a dumb character

Maybe. But you say that about anyone who isn't :sc1ast1:. :P