Siegfried Frame Data Thread

Synraii

[14] Master
You could test if anyone notices if you change the thread title to 'Slayer's official blog' XD
Though could you test how many free frames one gets from the BT SCH ago exactly, I want to know how long I can laugh at my opponent for before I launch them ^_^.
 

Pantocrator

[10] Knight
sorry for the late response. yes i did test what u said pantocrator, and when tested at a normal distance, 3A *appeared* to TC. however i tested it near a wall to eliminate the pushback of WR B, and 3A does not TC NSS K in that scenario. unfortunately its not a real TC, its just the way that siegfried moves, as stated before. however, if u have anything else you would like me to test, i'd be more than happy to do so for you ^_^
That's why I said "half TC", but maybe "semi "TC is more appropriate. You're right, the move never TC at close range in any case (in the past I tested a lot of situation), and semi TC move doesn't work at close range. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't TC at all. In this game there is semi TC and Half frame (hehe, that's why namco never publish is frame data...).
About 3A, I posted about is TC potential because I think it can help. IMAO my example support this idea : 3A against nightmare in this set up is very insane, and become btw important in this MU.
Moreover the natural range is the more pertinent, because the other close range situation rarely happen ( crouch against Siegfried near the edge is really risky...)

If somebody one day want to use the 8wayrun's frame data, maybe the information about 3A's TC potential will generate new lead in his researchs, and why not new discoveries.


I have a question about 22A, if you agree to test. In my memory (it's far and now I can't check) the move is semi TC too, and doesn't TC throw (and result a side throw...). Do you invalidate this and confirm that it's a true TC during [17-29] ?


thx
 

Slayer_X64

Siegfried SA Moderator
You could test if anyone notices if you change the thread title to 'Slayer's official blog' XD
Though could you test how many free frames one gets from the BT SCH ago exactly, I want to know how long I can laugh at my opponent for before I launch them ^_^.
LOL well then i'd be taking the credit for all the frame data work =P
That's why I said "half TC", but maybe "semi "TC is more appropriate. You're right, the move never TC at close range in any case (in the past I tested a lot of situation), and semi TC move doesn't work at close range. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't TC at all. In this game there is semi TC and Half frame (hehe, that's why namco never publish is frame data...).
About 3A, I posted about is TC potential because I think it can help. IMAO my example support this idea : 3A against nightmare in this set up is very insane, and become btw important in this MU.
Moreover the natural range is the more pertinent, because the other close range situation rarely happen ( crouch against Siegfried near the edge is really risky...)

If somebody one day want to use the 8wayrun's frame data, maybe the information about 3A's TC potential will generate new lead in his researchs, and why not new discoveries.


I have a question about 22A, if you agree to test. In my memory (it's far and now I can't check) the move is semi TC too, and doesn't TC throw (and result a side throw...). Do you invalidate this and confirm that it's a true TC during [17-29] ?


thx
yes, i can and will re-test this for you(sorry for such late responses, i've had alot of tests and stuff this week). as for the half TC stuff on 3A, i'll examine it more closely at mid-long range, and i'll let u know what i discover.
 

Slayer_X64

Siegfried SA Moderator
That's why I said "half TC", but maybe "semi "TC is more appropriate. You're right, the move never TC at close range in any case (in the past I tested a lot of situation), and semi TC move doesn't work at close range. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't TC at all. In this game there is semi TC and Half frame (hehe, that's why namco never publish is frame data...).
About 3A, I posted about is TC potential because I think it can help. IMAO my example support this idea : 3A against nightmare in this set up is very insane, and become btw important in this MU.
Moreover the natural range is the more pertinent, because the other close range situation rarely happen ( crouch against Siegfried near the edge is really risky...)

If somebody one day want to use the 8wayrun's frame data, maybe the information about 3A's TC potential will generate new lead in his researchs, and why not new discoveries.


I have a question about 22A, if you agree to test. In my memory (it's far and now I can't check) the move is semi TC too, and doesn't TC throw (and result a side throw...). Do you invalidate this and confirm that it's a true TC during [17-29] ?


thx
22_88A is a true TC [17-29]
im still determining whether 3A does TC at tip. a few things i've noticed is it seems to evade some moves, but not others of the same speed that are also high. whether its a TC, or a hitbox issue i havent decided yet. its very inconsistent, but point is some attacks do miss, others hit. i'll post my results when i finish.
 

Slayer_X64

Siegfried SA Moderator
3A is a half TC, that only TC's some highs, not all, and only at tip range. does not usually TC horizontal high attacks. therefore 3A will be marked as follows:

HTC [i10-i19] TC's some highs, rarely TC's horizontals.

now its time to dress up the wiki.
 

RT0wn

[10] Knight
So, let me get this straight. FC A+G/B+G pickup gives +13 frames to Siegfried. Which means... he gets a free K? So he picks up his opponent off of the ground only to kick them in the face? Which also leaves him at +2.
 

Slayer_X64

Siegfried SA Moderator
So, let me get this straight. FC A+G/B+G pickup gives +13 frames to Siegfried. Which means... he gets a free K? So he picks up his opponent off of the ground only to kick them in the face? Which also leaves him at +2.
K is indeed i13. no FC A+G/B+G pickup gives +13 frames, but as noted in the wiki they are safe frames; nothing actually combo's off the + frames. but all of the opponents attacks do come out 13 frames late.
 

sdnkorento

[08] Mercenary
As I tested 3A years ago, it doensn't have TC, but it moves Sieg's hitbox a step or two back. In other words, short range highs will miss, but highs with similar speed but longer range can definately hurt you...or so I recall. Test 6A and K for example, I used to have Excel-file of various testing conditions...
 

Slayer_X64

Siegfried SA Moderator
As I tested 3A years ago, it doensn't have TC, but it moves Sieg's hitbox a step or two back. In other words, short range highs will miss, but highs with similar speed but longer range can definately hurt you...or so I recall. Test 6A and K for example, I used to have Excel-file of various testing conditions...
its not so much that his hitbox moves back as it moves all over the place. it moves backwards and slightly to the left, and as far as i can see the move either has pro step or it evades verticals like a pro, because according to my research it also evades long range highs that have little or no tracking such as raph 6B. infact the only moves i could even land consistently at tip range were high horizontals. hence why i called it an HTC. whether the evasion properties are caused by the hitbox shift, or by a hidden HTC are really unclear for me. but what the move really is doesnt really matter so long as we point out the fact that it has evasive properties against non horizontal high attacks at tip range. because it also only evades within a certain amount of frames.
 

Synraii

[14] Master
Lol, I genuinely tried to read that and by the 3rd line my eyes were struggling to focus. XD
Good find though guys, brownie points to you! =)
 

Mandritti

[09] Warrior
K is indeed i13. no FC A+G/B+G pickup gives +13 frames, but as noted in the wiki they are safe frames; nothing actually combo's off the + frames. but all of the opponents attacks do come out 13 frames late.

This doesn't make sense, unless the following is possible: There is some fourth kind of stun in this game, where, you can 'wait out' the stun in the Guard state, but you cannot interrupt the stun and otherwise have no options. With this FC Throw evidence for Siegfried being undisputed, is that not evidence of this kind of stun? And if so, is it possible that other attacks have this quality?
 

RT0wn

[10] Knight
K is indeed i13. no FC A+G/B+G pickup gives +13 frames, but as noted in the wiki they are safe frames; nothing actually combo's off the + frames. but all of the opponents attacks do come out 13 frames late.
This doesn't make sense, unless the following is possible: There is some fourth kind of stun in this game, where, you can 'wait out' the stun in the Guard state, but you cannot interrupt the stun and otherwise have no options. With this FC Throw evidence for Siegfried being undisputed, is that not evidence of this kind of stun? And if so, is it possible that other attacks have this quality?
I would also like "safe frames" explained. I don't think I've heard the term before, and though I think I understand the function, I cannot find any further information on this type of frame.
 

Heaton

A Soul in the Purgatory
I would also like "safe frames" explained. I don't think I've heard the term before, and though I think I understand the function, I cannot find any further information on this type of frame.

As I understand it, it's basically frames where, although you can't get anything guaranteed off of the frames, you are safe from retaliation, and can apply pressure with those frames instead. So, for example, from FC A+G_B+G on grounded, you can use those frames to set up a mixup a la 6B+K, SRSH K_B.
 

Slayer_X64

Siegfried SA Moderator
As I understand it, it's basically frames where, although you can't get anything guaranteed off of the frames, you are safe from retaliation, and can apply pressure with those frames instead. So, for example, from FC A+G_B+G on grounded, you can use those frames to set up a mixup a la 6B+K, SRSH K_B.

I would also like "safe frames" explained. I don't think I've heard the term before, and though I think I understand the function, I cannot find any further information on this type of frame.
lol well pretty much. what safe frames means is that while you have enough frames that you could theoretically attack, the opponent can block anyways. yet when they retaliate their attack comes out very late. so basically this is how this works:

FC A_B+G pick up gives +13 safe frames: K is not actually guaranteed, but the opponent is at -13, and therefore their attack will come out 13 frames late. for example in a siegfried vs siegfried mirror, say one sieg picks up the other with FC A_B+G, and the siegfried that gets picked up uses 6A immediately after he recovers. well the siegfried that did the picking up is at +13, so if he uses 2A+B, it would trade with the other guys 6A, because the 6A is coming out 13 frames late (15+13 = 28) and 2A+B is i28. however as i previously stated sieg cannot combo anything off the pickup. this is what i call "safe frames". the term itself was coined by zombiebear666. if u want to know where else they're present in other characters data, hes probably the guy to ask.

FYI siegfried is not a good character to test frame data with because he has alot of range dependant values. nightmare is also bad for this, and led to some inconsistencies in my data during early testing. the most practical result(usually the most negative result too) is displayed on the wiki so that players can understand why attacks act certain ways. but there is variation (eg. if i remember correctly A+KA{A} is anywhere from ±0 to +2 on grd depending on how far away the opponent is when the move lands. same goes for siegfrieds A, which is normally i18, but lands at i17 at point blank range.) thats why when testing siegs data, its usually better to use a character who has little to no range values, and to double check everything with other characters. Algol (excluding the bubles) has little to no range values, and is the main character i use for testing.


SRSH_SCH_SSH B+K 's first autogi frame is i13.
Nice catch pantocrator. thx to this, i also re-tested all of the SBH transition data, it seems that SBH transitions are i20, no matter what stance you transition from(including neutral). all agi frames start on frame 13 when executed from stance, and start on frame 7 when executed from neutral. the TC frames are affected in the same way, and are the same for all the stances, yet early for neutral transition.

EDIT: this is my final conclusion on basehold's transition data:

transition from neutral: 20 frames
aGI at i7
TC at 11+

transition from stance: 20 frames
aGI at i13
TC at 17+
 

Mandritti

[09] Warrior
We seem to be in total agreement. It's just a little funny; to me, what is in your 2nd sentence is the explanation of what is in your 2nd paragraph:

lol well pretty much. what safe frames means is that while you have enough frames that you could theoretically attack, the opponent can block anyways. yet when they retaliate their attack comes out very late. so basically this is how this works:
This is what you are saying that accounts for seeing FC A+G (otg), K does not combo. It explains that data, in a way that the usual "the target is in 13 more frames of lag/stun " cannot.

Anyways I'll just be on the lookout for this kind of thing when doing my own testing - and in games. Thanks. But I've thought of another explanation, and I'll do a test that will eliminate one soon, and put up what I find.