Siegfried Matchup Discussion Thread

Heaton said:
I just pick Raphael and watch them fall to character ignorance. Not to mention that Raphael has answers for nearly all of Siegfried's tools, and can outspace Siegfried in the back-and-forth game. It's one of Raphael's better match-ups, and one I feel comfortable in.

Learn pocket Raphael.
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I knew that raph does quite well against sieg. Would you say its an even matchup?
I feel siegs whiffs more in this MU than in any other because i step/2_8B+K a lot more to abuse his weaknesses.

But then there is also the damage difference...
 
ChaosK said:
I knew that raph does quite well against sieg. Would you say its an even matchup?
I feel siegs whiffs more in this MU than in any other because i step/2_8B+K a lot more to abuse his weaknesses.

But then there is also the damage difference...
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Might be even, might be 6:4 for Raphael. A few bullet points:

Raphael is very good at forcing whiffs. Siegfried has his own problems whiffing. Put the two together and you end up being very cautious about using certain moves, because not only can Raphael make you whiff, but he can punish you for whiffing at nearly any range with 236B or 66(B).

Raphael excels at long range and can do well at close range. Siegfried does best at mid range, but even there Raphael has tools of his own - however, most of Raphael's mid range tools are very linear.

Raphael can outpoke you. Most characters can already do this against Siegfried, but Raphael has a 2A that might as well be Virtua Fighter 2P - it's very good. He also has a few very fast, very annoying lows - 33B, 11B, 11K, 2K - that will end up frustrating you very quickly.

Raphael has a good guard crush game. The think is, for him to get any real damage off of it, he has to break your guard with a move that enters Preparation - usually 3(B).

Raphael cannot hurt you badly for stepping outside of close range. At mid and long range, he has only 66A. Generally he'll either close the distance and poke some more, or hang back and wait for you to do something. Up close, however, stepping is extremely unwise, as 44A(B) kills your step, puts him in Preparation, and leaves you BT. He can also throw out 3A with impunity, and on Counter Hit, you're forced to stand still unless you yomi a slow move. Be smart about your movement.

Raphael doesn't do a lot of damage, but he has the means to do consistent amounts of little damage. Realize that his pokes are not necessarily threatening, but they add up extremely quickly, so making big guesses is important to stay ahead of him.

Raphael can punish everything you do that's -12 or worse and can enter into Preparation off of it. His CE can punish things that are -10, which means a blocked stance entrance guarantees Raphael a CE. If you're at the end of a round or match, and he has meter, don't enter a stance on block and try to be cute.

That's about all I can think of. You never really run into Raphael in any setting, and there are maybe four or five Raphael players that use him competitively, so he's not something to worry about so much as he's something to be prepared for.
 
Heaton said:
Might be even, might be 6:4 for Raphael. A few bullet points:





Raphael can punish everything you do that's -12 or worse and can enter into Preparation off of it. His CE can punish things that are -10, which means a blocked stance entrance guarantees Raphael a CE. If you're at the end of a round or match, and he has meter, don't enter a stance on block and try to be cute.
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Great post, I like how you don't understimate Raphael. But I'm positive his CE is i12.
 
Reptile said:
Great post, I like how you don't understimate Raphael. But I'm positive his CE is i12.
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I don't underestimate him because I know firsthand what he's capable of, and he's very capable of holding his own against Siegfried. I don't know if it's in his favor, but I know I'd rather just play a Raphael mirror match.

And there are a few moves where his CE will punish but 6BB will not, and it's not moves that leave them in FC. I can't think of them offhand, but I'll try to make a list when I get back from the restaurant. The main point of bringing up his CE is regardless of speed, it will stuff Siegfried's stance entrances on block, and I know many Siegfrieds enjoy getting stance entrances blocked.
 
I'm pretty sure that's because of CE's late invincibility frames beating SCH K, rather than CE being i10.
 
Here's my updated list after thinking about it for a bit.

Siegfried vs:

Aeon: 5:5
Algol: 4:6
Alpha: 3:7
Asta: 4:6
Cervy: 3:7
Damp: Don't know
Hilde: 5:5
Ivy: 5:5
Leixia: 5:5
Maxi: 5:5
Mitsurugi: 3:7
Natsu: 3:7
Nightmare: 5:5
Patroklos: 4:6
Pyrrha: 4:6
Pyrrha Omega: 2:8
Raphael: 4:6
Tira: 6:4
Viola: 6:4
Voldo: 5:5
Xiba: 5:5
Yoshimitsu: 5:5
Zwei: 6:4
 
I think Sieg vs Damp is 7:3, discuss.

I also think heaton thinks matchup charts are meaningless and for scrubs.

I also think heaton should post a matchup chart because we scrubs demand it.
 
Punks.

Code: 
α Patroklos    5:5
Aeon           5:5
Algol          5:5
Astaroth       5:5
Cervantes      5:5
Dampierre      7:3
Ezio           5:5
Hilde          5:5 (?)
Ivy            4:6
Leixia         6:4
Maxi           6:4
Mitsurugi      5:5
Natsu          5:5
Nightmare      5:5
Patroklos      6:4
Pyrrha         6:4
Pyrrha Ω       0:10
Raphael        4:6
Tira           5:5 (?)
Viola          4:6
Voldo          5:5 (?)
Xiba           5:5
Yoshi          6:4
Zwei           6:4

(?) = Match-up I'm unfamiliar with

The three main things I look at in a match-up is:
  1. Can they punish Siegfried consistently for a lot of damage?
  2. Can they get past Siegfried's spacing easily?
  3. Do they generally out-damage Siegfried on a single correct guess?
By all means, feel free to discuss away.
 
In the end, ChaosK always gets what he wants :sc5sig1:

Nice to see so much optimism in the alpha MU - apparently i must be doing something really wrong here *off to the lab*
You got some advice for this MU? 33B pretty much rapes me :/
 
ChaosK said:
In the end, ChaosK always gets what he wants :sc5sig1:

Nice to see so much optimism in the alpha MU - apparently i must be doing something really wrong here *off to the lab*
You got some advice for this MU? 33B pretty much rapes me :/
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Go watch ShenYuan at EVO against Woahhzz and copy him. Get JagA down for this match-up. Remember that α has sub-par step kill. Try and get a feel for when they'll try 1AAA, since SBH will make him think twice about trying it. Be extra careful when trying for moves that are safer at tip ranges (3A, 3AA, 66B) because Twister will hurt you for it badly.

Don't forget to copy ShenYuan.
 
In theory, if we actually consider Risk-reward alpha vs sieg is 5-5. maxou told me that delay twister is a 100% punish for all of 3B options. But sieg can just do normal 3B and delay twister can be blocked.... and blocked twister = death.

It is also very very important to understand the set play after 33B is blocked.

Heaton: Voldo vs Sieg is in Sieg's favour... definitely. I play this MU a lot and it also worked on the japanese voldos. I talked to KT and we both agree 6-4. I spoke to Jashin in japan (IMO the best hilde with kami-chan) and he thinks its 5-5. I think so too.

I'm also slowly thinking that sieg vs asta might be in sieg's favour by a lil bit... because sieg can really negate many of his counter hit rewards.... and play outside throw range

About the tournament... I don't do so well vs woahhzz in casuals lol... because i play sieg as a tournament character. in a first to two/three, sieg is very scary if you focus your gameplan to just take those games. He commands an incredible amount of fear. Make people feel that.



GO AWAY PARTISAN
 
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