Sandman
Windjammers World Champion
Really? I thought 3B works, and the wiki does say it's -19 on guard...
Siegfried Matchup Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Sandman
- Start date
Really? I thought 3B works, and the wiki does say it's -19 on guard...
Slayer_X64
Siegfried SA Moderator
her CE has unmarked range values. i havent tested them out yet, but i know for sure that b6 will punish 100% of the time regardless of range values. i wouldnt rely on sieg 3B to punish it though. blocked 3B isnt particularily good for siegfried vs hilde.
MKHSpartan
[12] Conqueror
A use for 1AA? Next time I face Hilde I will try that lol. That 22B destroys me every time...
Slade
[14] Master
Except SCH B. I cry quietly every time I JG it only to get a pitiful AA punish.
:c
When I block Hilde's CE in this MU I use B6 at a longest range block and a 3(B) when I block it up close. Hasn't failed me yet.
Der Lindwurm
Premium Member
Natsu still absolutely kills me. When I began playing, I feared Maxi the most. I can deal with him now. Well, Hot Rod Dave made very short work of me, but, unless I'm up against someone with 100 times more experience, I go into matches against Maxi pretty confident that I'll win. I'm getting better at dealing with Mitsurugi, too. But Natsu remains a huge hurdle. I can beat human-controlled Natsu's if they're very predictable, not so good at defending, or just don't know Siegfried, but I can't even touch her if I'm up against a competent player. I also have a particularly hard time against Natsu when I'm playing hard or very hard CPU.
Obviously, the best way to deal with her ground game is to keep from getting knocked down in the first place. So, let's see... 3B and 3A definitely aren't options anymore once she's close enough to hit you. In skilled hands, she will beat 6A (my favorite GTFO move) and agA to the punch too. Just plain K can knock her back, but after getting hit with that a few times she'll either step or a do a move that techs under it. I've sometimes hit Natsu 5 or 6 times in a row with SCH K before she stopped trying to rush in, but that's really risky. I get hit while going into chieftain hold most of the time. I've experimented with using SSH K to knock her down, but that step back Siegfried takes usually isn't enough to move you out of range of whatever's incoming. The crouch on 1K and 6K is useful, but there's no way you're going to compete with her damage output with attacks like those... Step like crazy, hope she whiffs, and launch more powerful attacks?
Once she does have me down, I'm never sure whether it's best to just stay down and hope for a bomb instead of 1A, try to roll to her right and get behind her if I think she'll go for 1A or middles, or block low in anticipation of 1A or 4A+B and use a WR attack if I see unblockable. Trouble is, once I see the startup animation and know to keep blocking low, I have a hard time recognizing the unblockable in time to then hit her out of it. Not to mention the unpleasant results if she uses middles while I'm in the crouch.
What do you do when Natsu has gotten in close? When she has you down?
Obviously, the best way to deal with her ground game is to keep from getting knocked down in the first place. So, let's see... 3B and 3A definitely aren't options anymore once she's close enough to hit you. In skilled hands, she will beat 6A (my favorite GTFO move) and agA to the punch too. Just plain K can knock her back, but after getting hit with that a few times she'll either step or a do a move that techs under it. I've sometimes hit Natsu 5 or 6 times in a row with SCH K before she stopped trying to rush in, but that's really risky. I get hit while going into chieftain hold most of the time. I've experimented with using SSH K to knock her down, but that step back Siegfried takes usually isn't enough to move you out of range of whatever's incoming. The crouch on 1K and 6K is useful, but there's no way you're going to compete with her damage output with attacks like those... Step like crazy, hope she whiffs, and launch more powerful attacks?
Once she does have me down, I'm never sure whether it's best to just stay down and hope for a bomb instead of 1A, try to roll to her right and get behind her if I think she'll go for 1A or middles, or block low in anticipation of 1A or 4A+B and use a WR attack if I see unblockable. Trouble is, once I see the startup animation and know to keep blocking low, I have a hard time recognizing the unblockable in time to then hit her out of it. Not to mention the unpleasant results if she uses middles while I'm in the crouch.
What do you do when Natsu has gotten in close? When she has you down?
Slayer_X64
Siegfried SA Moderator
Well, when natsu is in close, Its time to play defense. essentially your goal is to try to get a bit of chip damage and buy yourself some time so that you can push her back out again. naturally you'll want to back step, but for fear of 66B, you have to try to wait for the right moment to try to escape, or she'll hammer you for it. I resort to using quick poking tools, such as 1K(this move is golden because it TC's and is a low), 3K, 66K, maybe 2A to contain movement(though it is slower). I might transition into SSH after a quick poke like that and try to get an SSH BBB whiff punish if my opponent is aggressive or greedy, but there's no sense in trying to do this otherwise as it opens you up for damage. grabs are good because they KND, push her out, and do a decent enough amount of damage that you dont fall too far behind. CH 4B is absolutely golden, as it resets you to exactly where you want to be. FC grabs are also great for re-zoning her out, they're somewhat safer than regular grabs, and they TC. however sometimes it isnt this easy, and you'll have to progressively try to push her out with advantage and well placed backsteps. dont bother trying to agA at close range. as for transitioning into SCH, i wouldnt reccomend it because she is one of the three characters in the game that can actually punish 3B/WRB without using a CE - she can do this with her AA/a6. even a well spaced 3B/WRB doesnt leave you in a favorable position, as she can just backstep. personally i wouldnt go near your launchers unless you know they will hit ie. block punishment. which reminds me - block punishment is very important vs natsu, not only do you need to be on top of your punishment, but you also need to be selective of it. for example, if natsu 66K's, and you block it and she's right in front of your face, go for a 4B punish instead of a b6 punish unless you need the damage, as it gives you some advantage to work with to push her back out. and keep in mind that her fastest move is an i10 high which can interrupt you at advantage, but remember that you also have fast moves that TC such as 1K and 66K, and you have strings that have fear advantage such as 3K. you have to be mindful of your situation at all times, and adapt accordingly. this is not an easy matchup for sieg.
once you're on the ground personally i usually just lay there - its better to take the ground damage than it is to get up into natsu bomb tech traps. if i were you i would study her tech game, and get a good grasp on how and when she can hurt you while grounded.
as for the bombs from standing, try to train yourself to jump them on reaction. also remember that it is easier for you to jump using jump-attacks than it is for you to 8G. try doing things like 8B or 8K next time you see a bomb - at least this way you'll get a little damage as well. if you have trouble reacting to the bombs, go into training mode and practice jumping them, mixed in with a few other moves so that you actually have to react. same with 1A, you should learn to react to that.
it may sound absurd, but where you want to get most of your damage from this matchup is off poking and zoning - you essentially want to chip at her slowly until she eventually dies - you can mix in some grabs if you like, and i reccomend it as they not only help keep up in terms of damage, they also give you opportunity to try to zone her back out when she gets too close. the only times you should actually be getting big damage is when you're capitalizing on whiff punishment, block punishment and grabs. Dont get greedy if you dont have to. Just focus on keeping her out. when you think this matchup, think to yourself "im going to 1K, 2A, 3K and b6 her to death!"
and again make sure you get that block punishment down! alot of her "get in quick" tools are unsafe. you need to punish them consistently to try to make her think twice about using them. once she starts second guessing those, its one less thing you have to deal with.
Der Lindwurm
Premium Member
It does sound absurd but I'm willing to try anything.
4B it is! I hate how 66K gets her in close for free since there's not much I can do but stand there and block it.
Slayer_X64
Siegfried SA Moderator
and then punish her for free damage! =D
pokefried is literally like a basic guideline on how siegfried is supposed to handle all bad matchups, combined with varying levels of praying and dumb luck.
ChaosK
[13] Hero
One thing i want to add though, is that you have some options against her punishment for 3B/wrB.
AA is actually not a guaranteed punishment, you can beat it with 3(B)~G~3(B). For some reason the cancel results in the second 3B TCing her AA. So thats a good tool against those natsu's that are too lazy to attempt A6.
Against A6 there is to say, that while you can do nothing about the JF A:6, you can SBH regular A6. That is a very real threat for messing up a JF and against players that aren't 100% confident about their execution, it can help to discourage them from punishing with A6.
Also with the correct spacing, 3B and wrB cant be punished with either of them and the basic mixup applies.
Edit: Whenever she transitions into PO and does anything after you blocked her bomb, 4B+K beats every of her options and you can punish her with SSH BBB.
AA is actually not a guaranteed punishment, you can beat it with 3(B)~G~3(B). For some reason the cancel results in the second 3B TCing her AA. So thats a good tool against those natsu's that are too lazy to attempt A6.
Against A6 there is to say, that while you can do nothing about the JF A:6, you can SBH regular A6. That is a very real threat for messing up a JF and against players that aren't 100% confident about their execution, it can help to discourage them from punishing with A6.
Also with the correct spacing, 3B and wrB cant be punished with either of them and the basic mixup applies.
Edit: Whenever she transitions into PO and does anything after you blocked her bomb, 4B+K beats every of her options and you can punish her with SSH BBB.
MKHSpartan
[12] Conqueror
Omg fucking seriously? Yes yes yes now I can deal with that effing reverse mix-up consistently.
ChaosK
[13] Hero
Well you still have to commit to the SSH B though. If she doesn't transition and baits it out, you could be punished hard for it. It still leaves you in a much better position than without though.
Syn_SC
[10] Knight
I wouldn't expect good Natsus to have any issue with not going into pos vs Sieg if thats the answer, I mean the risk/reward is still horrible for Sieg, lol.
As a matter of interest, what options does Natsu have if Sieg blocks the bomb and uses 66K BE vs a POS entry?
As a matter of interest, what options does Natsu have if Sieg blocks the bomb and uses 66K BE vs a POS entry?
MKHSpartan
[12] Conqueror
Yea I have a friend who whores that mix-up online, having an option to beat all options if he goes to Possession helps drastically, even if it is unsafe as shit it can scare him out of going for that mix-up or at least make him think about it anyway.
ChaosK
[13] Hero
POS K and A. Little correction on my side, POS A beats SSH B as well. Also keep in mind that while her POS B+K wont hit you when you do SSH B, your B will still whiff :/
Her POS BE will make both SSH B and 66K BE whiff, but so will her move as well. So i am not quite sure if thats an option.
Slayer_X64
Siegfried SA Moderator
at the right range, 3B spaced doesnt get you anything because they can just step out of reach from the stance, wait for you to cancel or whiff, then get right back in again. no mixup applies. while she cant directly do any damage to you, her being right up in your face is the next best thing, and is pretty much guaranteed to yield damage anyways.not only that but she can also whiff punish with 66K, 66B and BE, bombs will also reach, A+B, and 44A if you do actually attack.
not to mention she also has step TC options such as 22_88A, 889B(223B will get caught by SCH B because of how she shifts her body during the stab) 887_221B, step 1A, step 1K, on top of this to attempt to beat the stance(in which case the normal mixup applies) but its simply not a situation that siegfried wants to be in to begin with. If you use 3B/WR B, she'd better be getting launched by it, or you're in a rock and a hard place.
this is true, but even so you're relying on your opponent to screw up something that is pretty fundamental to playing their character well. I dont even play natsu, and I can punish this 8/10 times consistently. I have never considered myself to have solid execution.
I actually looked into this out of curiosity, and it would seem that the SCH cancel 3{B}~G actually pushes siegfried back just far enough for the first hit of AA to whiff on his chin hairs, allowing him to TC and punish the second hit with 3B. nice find chaosK! I wonder how this would apply to other characters with short ranged AA's...im going to look further into this.
EyeofCalamity
[10] Knight
Hi slayer how u been?lol but yeah I hate this matchup with a passion when I use siegfried, well hate fighting natsu in general anyway.
ChaosK
[13] Hero
All true but i was just saying that she cant punish with AA/A6 at range and as far as i am aware of, she does not have an option at range that beats all of siegfrieds options. Therefore she still has to guess if she wants to punish siegfried and its still a mixup (unless there is something i am forgetting here).
That makes a lot of sense. Iirc it beats yoshis dickpunch as well and this would be a good explanation for it.
Credit belongs to captain russia though. He made a video about it quite a while ago.
Slayer_X64
Siegfried SA Moderator
except that beyond the range that she can A:6 you, she can just backstep, even out of range of SCH B unless you realign forwards(in which case you might get a forced block, though i'd have to test this to be 100% certain) This is what I was trying to say. backstep hurts siegfried bad beyond a certain sweetspot point in SCH at mid range. not just from natsu, but from every member of the cast, including siegfried himself.
it also works for other short range attacks like patroklos AA although instead of using 3B, you have to cancel into iWR B because 3B's TC window doesnt fit the timing of the second A. id say the uses for this are limited to certain matchups and player reactions though, considering the circumstances which they require. might be nice for using against things like omega 22_88B though.
ChaosK
[13] Hero
When you see her backstepping, canceling 3B is a good option. She still misses her punishment and you just did a little bit of guard dmg and spaced her out. I'd say at range its still a mixup in siegs favor actually. 66K gets beaten by SCH K BE for more dmg and 66B gets beaten by either 2B+K~SCH B or Backstep SCH B both for more dmg.
Against omega 22B, SBH is the manliest option still.
Against omega 22B, SBH is the manliest option still.
Slayer_X64
Siegfried SA Moderator
i disagree. if a natsu player sees you cancel, they can simply not attack, and even better they can just front step G back in if they so please. on note of SCH K BE they will also be able to see that coming during their backstep, and could JG it after recovering, or simply whiff punish using a sidestepping attack. either way the opponent has to auto pilot and siegfried has to read it in order to prevent it.