Siegfried Poking/mixup Discussion

Slayer_X64

Siegfried SA Moderator
EDIT: yep, i figured since poking is so deeply related to mixups, that i'd integrate mixups as another main topic in this thread its easier if they're together, rather than sifting through all ur options and taking all of the poke only options out for use in this thread) so post away! i'll update the main post frequently both with my stuff and your stuff

yea an entire thread dedicated to poking and related mix ups that stem from pokes. seems like possibly silly discussion, but i believe this is a key part in Siegfried's game. so lets discuss what moves are good for poking in what situations, and then lets discuss exactly what we can do after each move. Jink is going to LOVE this discussin >_> and yes this is a very opinionated matter, so u must state where it works, what characters it is good against, what characters it is bad against, and specifically what move stops it.

this post will be updated in the same fashion as the frame data to make organization easier. wish i could do that for the tech trap thread, but i didnt start it...jeez synraii u and ur good ideas! look what u gone and done, u started a discussion style fad now! all because it had to be effective...=P

Anyways...i'll start us off with listing a few pokes and their purposes.

Siegfried poking moves:

b6: useful for whiff punish and long range safe pokes. is fast, can punish alot of moves, gives advantage on hit and leaves opponent in FC, on grd its safe and long ranged enough that u can play with it a little. decent SG for a poke too...

4K: useful for its TC, for whiff punish, for its safety on grd, for its reach, and its advantage on hit. note though regardless of hit or grd the most common reactions involve guarding or step guarding after(well probably for every move but knowing that is important here! >.<) has ok SG for a poke.

1K: well its ur basic low poke. nothing really special about it. its fairly versatile and an invisible low, so u can usually expect this 1 to hit. doesnt TC, and yea its a little bit punishable, but theres alot u can do after it on both CH and NH.

2A: well when ur out of range for 1K, this is ur other option. its an invisible low, and whats special about it is you're always at - after so u can almost always expect ur opponent to attack or rush you down afterwards. by itself its a really crappy move, punishable on grd even, but given some thought, creativity, and the right spacing even 2A can be as deadly a weapon as any.

3K: ok i know what ur thinking; y is this here? b6 is way better! well 3K is easier to execute, faster by 1 frame, has wonderful always at disadvantage properties, and has a special thing that actually makes it work called "fear advantage". so really its not that bad, even on grd so long as you dont over use it(the same goes for any move, even agA)

agA/iagA: yep, it can also be considered a poke because its fast and safe to throw out on grd. really, agA is an all purpose move, infact its probably siegfrieds best move, not his best poke. but its just as effective as any other poke he has, and it gets the job done, and its dependable, and it step kills, and it has pushback, and its advantageous on grd, and it has wall combo's/RO's, and its incredibly manly, and shiny and....well u get the point dont you? its goddamn useful!

66K: really its just a meh punish, a forced block on hit, and a really crappy, punishable aggro. but if thats what the poking game calls for, at least we have something!

6B: yea...this isnt really much of a poke...but it sort of serves the purpose of a poke at long range, since it pushes back, and since at long range most characters cant punish it forces them to run at you or step...which allows you to play with it to an extent. it also whiff punishes at really long range. plus, it really is a slow poking motion.

4B/4BB/4BBB: goddamn i hate this move! it sux! but it is indeed a poke. its always -, and its even slightly punishable on grd. but if ur opponent is nearly dead, and well if they just so happen to duck when you run in...hmm...

A: yea a simple A. its a poke. its safe. it catches step. its fast-ish. its only -2 on grd, and + on hit. not really alot to say about this. u can attack after, step after, or simply do nothing after. if you want u can provoke with it and set up for {A} SSH A+B. Really though A just gets the job done. and its very effective if you want to CH fish.

WR B: this isnt really a poke, but in certain situations can serve the use of a poke. just be careful of getting punished or stepped for this 1. frame traps most characters, and has good SG. also useful if fishing for CH.

4A: well its sorta a poke. it stopes em from stepping around too much. its decent in speed. its useful for CH fishing.

FC A_B+G: its low, its invisible, it makes em duck, its breakable, it forces tech, yatta yatta yatta.

SSH A: quick low poke from stance that forces aggro, makes opponents duck low, and has good range. useful after poking and spacing, then poking again. other than that its really not much of a poke. just space space space.

6K: well its nothing special. on grd eat ur punish, on hit space, step or TC, and on CH go stance crazy. heavily CH fishing dependant, can be used as a punisher(if possible K works better because its safe and advantage on hit)

BB: its a poke really only because of the WTF factor as in "wtf did he just BB me?!" that comes with opponents that are heavily searching for/are used to {B} or B2A. not particularily effective, but it works once in a while. plus jink does stuff with it >_>

Other Useful Moves For Setups/Mixups


b4/b:4 : u can do alot with it. get this off on forced block or wakeup to pressure and intimidate opponents. also has good SG damage.

7_8_9B: forces opponent to try to retaliate if they lock up. forced crouch on grd & -8. you can do stuff after forced crouch on grd & -8. good SG. TJ's.

1B: at tip range it can aggrivate opponents to run in, giving you options to move, or stop them from dashing in with an attack even, depending on the situation and the opponent

22{B}: good for simultaneously zoning opponents and baiting them to rush in. gives several options against most characters, but can be completely stuffed by some characters.

88{B}: applies pressure on the opponent in an attempt to bait a certain kind of reaction to exploit for high damage opportunities. if they simply do nothing, u get a free 50/50 from the stance. can be stuffed by a few characters though.

B/2B: a very basic attack that benefits from a relatively good SG damage despite being safe. somewhat on the slow side at i24, but has good properties on hit, and transitioning into stance can cause pressure on the opponent.

Siegfried Mixups/Mindgames:

4K:
-4K grd/NH ~ step G(look for whiff to punish, anti non tracking verticals)
-4K grd/NH ~ step 4K(kill retracking highs)
-4K grd ~ B+K SBH(aGI horizontal step kills)
-4K grd/NH ~ 4B+K SSH(space short ranged moves for punish by SSH)
-4K grd/NH ~ 6A(step kill people who like to attack after)
-4K grd/NH ~ 4K(TC high moves to continue aggro)
-4K NH ~ step 1B/grab mixup(force mixup)
-4K NH ~ stance mixup(risky, but can catch your opponent off guard)
-4K CH 3B(combo)
-4K CH ~ stance mixup(exploit opening for free stance transition + pressure + high potential damage)
-4K CH ~ b4(SG damage fishing)
good against: cassandra
bad against: sophitia, kilik
moves/situations that kill it: mid ranged mid/low step kills(mostly non horizontal. if horizontal, they're exploiting the SBH aGI gap), tracking verticals, long ranged pokes, strong spacing(doesnt kill it, but limits options)

...go nuts jink. i know you'll want to =P
 

Nirf

[10] Knight
Hey Slayer, XBL Nwhahaha. Was going to comment, as you saw in our match 6B is a terrible poke against Voldo, the sisters, and I'm sure a few other characters. A really steppable i25 that's -17 on guard? I didn't think there's any reason for Sieg to use this ever.
 

Slayer_X64

Siegfried SA Moderator
Hey Slayer, XBL Nwhahaha. Was going to comment, as you saw in our match 6B is a terrible poke against Voldo, the sisters, and I'm sure a few other characters. A really steppable i25 that's -17 on guard? I didn't think there's any reason for Sieg to use this ever.
well its a ranged move that makes great whiff punish and it has real good SG, and it spaces. the spacing is enough at tip range that vs most characters its safe, leaving you with options to step G or even try to stop them from running in. however it is indeed punishable(i actually thought i was out of range of voldo 66B FYI, u suprised me)
 

Synraii

[14] Master
Mid range mixup iAGA and 3A, eat SG damage bitch! =)
B6 is more of a panic button to me, at tip it's easily stepped without the above deterrents though credit to it's surprisingly excellent SG damage. Who knew?
 

Heaton

A Soul in the Purgatory
Fine, I'll bite...

:(A): - Safe, and transitions nicely into SSH A+B if they try to punish. Nice option from tip.

:2::A: - Annoying low. Doesn't give you much in the way of frames, but with a well timed :4::B::+::K: it can get you some nice damage.

:A::+::K:slide:A: - Safe, fast, can go into SCH if you want, has an annoying, safe, high-to-low option. Very good series of moves.

:4::A: - I like it. I use it when looking for a bit more damage from a poke, as its reward on CH is nice. Who doesn't love shakeable stuns?

:B::6: - This move is really annoying from tip range. So abuse the hell out of it from there. Just watch for stepping, which agA can deal with quite handily.

:K: - When you absolutely, positively have to punish an -13 move...accept no substitutes.

:6::K: - For counter-hit fishing. Otherwise, same as above, except for -14.

:3::K: Series - A nice poke. First hit is safe, second hit on its own is NOT SAFE; however, the nice thing about strings is that the next hit makes unsafe parts "safer" if you understand what I mean - the threat of having your punish stuffed by the headbutt is its own mixup.

:4::K: - Tech crouching is always nice. Good for counter-hit fishing near the wall, as well.

:1::K: - You don't tech crouch. Why don't you tech crouch? I don't use you much at all because you don't tech crouch.

:2::K: - Can be used to try to bait a reaction. It's only safe on hit, but if they get sick of their toes being crushed, they might do something stupid and open themselves. Situational by opponent. Extremely useful on rollers and Crybaby Xianghuas, however.

BT :B::B: - This is a great move and you should all use this over stupid BT stance shenanigans.
 

Synraii

[14] Master
You forgot a+kAA, provided you teach them not to duck with the kick, it leads to good pressure options.
 

Slayer_X64

Siegfried SA Moderator
You forgot a+kAA, provided you teach them not to duck with the kick, it leads to good pressure options.
yea but y not just teach them not to duck so that i can get my A+Ka2AA NC double low with RO potential off them?

@heaton...just thought i'd let u know ur moves are 1 frame too slow in judgement...K is i13, 6K is i14, so they punish -13 and -14 respectively. however since 6K is -1 on hit where as K is +2, i'd much rather use K anyways. easier to fit in and leaves me in a slightly advantageous situation.
 

Heaton

A Soul in the Purgatory
See I thought they could block at 0 frames. :( Edited for posterity.

Also since when is a+ka2AA a NC? The only time I hit people with both are when I've conditioned them to think I only ever do a+ka2A.
 

Slayer_X64

Siegfried SA Moderator
not a+ka2AA, A+Ka2AA. the kick isnt a NC, but the 2 low hits that come after are an NC.
 

Synraii

[14] Master
Press 2A as the blade crosses his body, kind of like a just frame, but a tad earlier - it's a good move.
Slayer, I still have an aneurism from the agA tutorial - please don't - it's my week off from work, I don't want to spend it in hospital.
 

Slayer_X64

Siegfried SA Moderator
Press 2A as the blade crosses his body, kind of like a just frame, but a tad earlier - it's a good move.
when learning it actually, even though its not 1, it really should be treated as a strict just frame because of the difficult timing the input demands.
 

Synraii

[14] Master
Tricky to pick up straight away but very easy to master, you just have to input patiently - which I assume goes against what you learned playing Rapha? Speed being key and all that.
 

Slayer_X64

Siegfried SA Moderator
Tricky to pick up straight away but very easy to master, you just have to input patiently - which I assume goes against what you learned playing Rapha? Speed being key and all that.
if directed at me: i actually just button mash and space with Raphael lol. my Raphael could be good if i devoted more time to him, but as of now im very mediocre. patience is something that comes along with Siegfried as a whole. aggression is something he needs too, but it needs proper direction to be effective(think of it like funneling) which is provided through brain numbing patience
Slayer, I still have an aneurism from the agA tutorial - please don't - it's my week off from work, I don't want to spend it in hospital.
u didnt like my agA tutorial? TT-TT *sniff*
 

Heaton

A Soul in the Purgatory
Oh. In which case, it sort of goes against Raph, yeah. Except for the fact that you have to delay mash the 33K:B just.

I don't get how it works. It just does.