Slayer_X64
Siegfried SA Moderator
EDIT: yep, i figured since poking is so deeply related to mixups, that i'd integrate mixups as another main topic in this thread its easier if they're together, rather than sifting through all ur options and taking all of the poke only options out for use in this thread) so post away! i'll update the main post frequently both with my stuff and your stuff
yea an entire thread dedicated to poking and related mix ups that stem from pokes. seems like possibly silly discussion, but i believe this is a key part in Siegfried's game. so lets discuss what moves are good for poking in what situations, and then lets discuss exactly what we can do after each move. Jink is going to LOVE this discussin >_> and yes this is a very opinionated matter, so u must state where it works, what characters it is good against, what characters it is bad against, and specifically what move stops it.
this post will be updated in the same fashion as the frame data to make organization easier. wish i could do that for the tech trap thread, but i didnt start it...jeez synraii u and ur good ideas! look what u gone and done, u started a discussion style fad now! all because it had to be effective...=P
Anyways...i'll start us off with listing a few pokes and their purposes.
Siegfried poking moves:
b6: useful for whiff punish and long range safe pokes. is fast, can punish alot of moves, gives advantage on hit and leaves opponent in FC, on grd its safe and long ranged enough that u can play with it a little. decent SG for a poke too...
4K: useful for its TC, for whiff punish, for its safety on grd, for its reach, and its advantage on hit. note though regardless of hit or grd the most common reactions involve guarding or step guarding after(well probably for every move but knowing that is important here! >.<) has ok SG for a poke.
1K: well its ur basic low poke. nothing really special about it. its fairly versatile and an invisible low, so u can usually expect this 1 to hit. doesnt TC, and yea its a little bit punishable, but theres alot u can do after it on both CH and NH.
2A: well when ur out of range for 1K, this is ur other option. its an invisible low, and whats special about it is you're always at - after so u can almost always expect ur opponent to attack or rush you down afterwards. by itself its a really crappy move, punishable on grd even, but given some thought, creativity, and the right spacing even 2A can be as deadly a weapon as any.
3K: ok i know what ur thinking; y is this here? b6 is way better! well 3K is easier to execute, faster by 1 frame, has wonderful always at disadvantage properties, and has a special thing that actually makes it work called "fear advantage". so really its not that bad, even on grd so long as you dont over use it(the same goes for any move, even agA)
agA/iagA: yep, it can also be considered a poke because its fast and safe to throw out on grd. really, agA is an all purpose move, infact its probably siegfrieds best move, not his best poke. but its just as effective as any other poke he has, and it gets the job done, and its dependable, and it step kills, and it has pushback, and its advantageous on grd, and it has wall combo's/RO's, and its incredibly manly, and shiny and....well u get the point dont you? its goddamn useful!
66K: really its just a meh punish, a forced block on hit, and a really crappy, punishable aggro. but if thats what the poking game calls for, at least we have something!
6B: yea...this isnt really much of a poke...but it sort of serves the purpose of a poke at long range, since it pushes back, and since at long range most characters cant punish it forces them to run at you or step...which allows you to play with it to an extent. it also whiff punishes at really long range. plus, it really is a slow poking motion.
4B/4BB/4BBB: goddamn i hate this move! it sux! but it is indeed a poke. its always -, and its even slightly punishable on grd. but if ur opponent is nearly dead, and well if they just so happen to duck when you run in...hmm...
A: yea a simple A. its a poke. its safe. it catches step. its fast-ish. its only -2 on grd, and + on hit. not really alot to say about this. u can attack after, step after, or simply do nothing after. if you want u can provoke with it and set up for {A} SSH A+B. Really though A just gets the job done. and its very effective if you want to CH fish.
WR B: this isnt really a poke, but in certain situations can serve the use of a poke. just be careful of getting punished or stepped for this 1. frame traps most characters, and has good SG. also useful if fishing for CH.
4A: well its sorta a poke. it stopes em from stepping around too much. its decent in speed. its useful for CH fishing.
FC A_B+G: its low, its invisible, it makes em duck, its breakable, it forces tech, yatta yatta yatta.
SSH A: quick low poke from stance that forces aggro, makes opponents duck low, and has good range. useful after poking and spacing, then poking again. other than that its really not much of a poke. just space space space.
6K: well its nothing special. on grd eat ur punish, on hit space, step or TC, and on CH go stance crazy. heavily CH fishing dependant, can be used as a punisher(if possible K works better because its safe and advantage on hit)
BB: its a poke really only because of the WTF factor as in "wtf did he just BB me?!" that comes with opponents that are heavily searching for/are used to {B} or B2A. not particularily effective, but it works once in a while. plus jink does stuff with it >_>
Other Useful Moves For Setups/Mixups
b4/b:4 : u can do alot with it. get this off on forced block or wakeup to pressure and intimidate opponents. also has good SG damage.
7_8_9B: forces opponent to try to retaliate if they lock up. forced crouch on grd & -8. you can do stuff after forced crouch on grd & -8. good SG. TJ's.
1B: at tip range it can aggrivate opponents to run in, giving you options to move, or stop them from dashing in with an attack even, depending on the situation and the opponent
22{B}: good for simultaneously zoning opponents and baiting them to rush in. gives several options against most characters, but can be completely stuffed by some characters.
88{B}: applies pressure on the opponent in an attempt to bait a certain kind of reaction to exploit for high damage opportunities. if they simply do nothing, u get a free 50/50 from the stance. can be stuffed by a few characters though.
B/2B: a very basic attack that benefits from a relatively good SG damage despite being safe. somewhat on the slow side at i24, but has good properties on hit, and transitioning into stance can cause pressure on the opponent.
Siegfried Mixups/Mindgames:
4K:
-4K grd/NH ~ step G(look for whiff to punish, anti non tracking verticals)
-4K grd/NH ~ step 4K(kill retracking highs)
-4K grd ~ B+K SBH(aGI horizontal step kills)
-4K grd/NH ~ 4B+K SSH(space short ranged moves for punish by SSH)
-4K grd/NH ~ 6A(step kill people who like to attack after)
-4K grd/NH ~ 4K(TC high moves to continue aggro)
-4K NH ~ step 1B/grab mixup(force mixup)
-4K NH ~ stance mixup(risky, but can catch your opponent off guard)
-4K CH 3B(combo)
-4K CH ~ stance mixup(exploit opening for free stance transition + pressure + high potential damage)
-4K CH ~ b4(SG damage fishing)
good against: cassandra
bad against: sophitia, kilik
moves/situations that kill it: mid ranged mid/low step kills(mostly non horizontal. if horizontal, they're exploiting the SBH aGI gap), tracking verticals, long ranged pokes, strong spacing(doesnt kill it, but limits options)
...go nuts jink. i know you'll want to =P
yea an entire thread dedicated to poking and related mix ups that stem from pokes. seems like possibly silly discussion, but i believe this is a key part in Siegfried's game. so lets discuss what moves are good for poking in what situations, and then lets discuss exactly what we can do after each move. Jink is going to LOVE this discussin >_> and yes this is a very opinionated matter, so u must state where it works, what characters it is good against, what characters it is bad against, and specifically what move stops it.
this post will be updated in the same fashion as the frame data to make organization easier. wish i could do that for the tech trap thread, but i didnt start it...jeez synraii u and ur good ideas! look what u gone and done, u started a discussion style fad now! all because it had to be effective...=P
Anyways...i'll start us off with listing a few pokes and their purposes.
Siegfried poking moves:
b6: useful for whiff punish and long range safe pokes. is fast, can punish alot of moves, gives advantage on hit and leaves opponent in FC, on grd its safe and long ranged enough that u can play with it a little. decent SG for a poke too...
4K: useful for its TC, for whiff punish, for its safety on grd, for its reach, and its advantage on hit. note though regardless of hit or grd the most common reactions involve guarding or step guarding after(well probably for every move but knowing that is important here! >.<) has ok SG for a poke.
1K: well its ur basic low poke. nothing really special about it. its fairly versatile and an invisible low, so u can usually expect this 1 to hit. doesnt TC, and yea its a little bit punishable, but theres alot u can do after it on both CH and NH.
2A: well when ur out of range for 1K, this is ur other option. its an invisible low, and whats special about it is you're always at - after so u can almost always expect ur opponent to attack or rush you down afterwards. by itself its a really crappy move, punishable on grd even, but given some thought, creativity, and the right spacing even 2A can be as deadly a weapon as any.
3K: ok i know what ur thinking; y is this here? b6 is way better! well 3K is easier to execute, faster by 1 frame, has wonderful always at disadvantage properties, and has a special thing that actually makes it work called "fear advantage". so really its not that bad, even on grd so long as you dont over use it(the same goes for any move, even agA)
agA/iagA: yep, it can also be considered a poke because its fast and safe to throw out on grd. really, agA is an all purpose move, infact its probably siegfrieds best move, not his best poke. but its just as effective as any other poke he has, and it gets the job done, and its dependable, and it step kills, and it has pushback, and its advantageous on grd, and it has wall combo's/RO's, and its incredibly manly, and shiny and....well u get the point dont you? its goddamn useful!
66K: really its just a meh punish, a forced block on hit, and a really crappy, punishable aggro. but if thats what the poking game calls for, at least we have something!
6B: yea...this isnt really much of a poke...but it sort of serves the purpose of a poke at long range, since it pushes back, and since at long range most characters cant punish it forces them to run at you or step...which allows you to play with it to an extent. it also whiff punishes at really long range. plus, it really is a slow poking motion.
4B/4BB/4BBB: goddamn i hate this move! it sux! but it is indeed a poke. its always -, and its even slightly punishable on grd. but if ur opponent is nearly dead, and well if they just so happen to duck when you run in...hmm...
A: yea a simple A. its a poke. its safe. it catches step. its fast-ish. its only -2 on grd, and + on hit. not really alot to say about this. u can attack after, step after, or simply do nothing after. if you want u can provoke with it and set up for {A} SSH A+B. Really though A just gets the job done. and its very effective if you want to CH fish.
WR B: this isnt really a poke, but in certain situations can serve the use of a poke. just be careful of getting punished or stepped for this 1. frame traps most characters, and has good SG. also useful if fishing for CH.
4A: well its sorta a poke. it stopes em from stepping around too much. its decent in speed. its useful for CH fishing.
FC A_B+G: its low, its invisible, it makes em duck, its breakable, it forces tech, yatta yatta yatta.
SSH A: quick low poke from stance that forces aggro, makes opponents duck low, and has good range. useful after poking and spacing, then poking again. other than that its really not much of a poke. just space space space.
6K: well its nothing special. on grd eat ur punish, on hit space, step or TC, and on CH go stance crazy. heavily CH fishing dependant, can be used as a punisher(if possible K works better because its safe and advantage on hit)
BB: its a poke really only because of the WTF factor as in "wtf did he just BB me?!" that comes with opponents that are heavily searching for/are used to {B} or B2A. not particularily effective, but it works once in a while. plus jink does stuff with it >_>
Other Useful Moves For Setups/Mixups
b4/b:4 : u can do alot with it. get this off on forced block or wakeup to pressure and intimidate opponents. also has good SG damage.
7_8_9B: forces opponent to try to retaliate if they lock up. forced crouch on grd & -8. you can do stuff after forced crouch on grd & -8. good SG. TJ's.
1B: at tip range it can aggrivate opponents to run in, giving you options to move, or stop them from dashing in with an attack even, depending on the situation and the opponent
22{B}: good for simultaneously zoning opponents and baiting them to rush in. gives several options against most characters, but can be completely stuffed by some characters.
88{B}: applies pressure on the opponent in an attempt to bait a certain kind of reaction to exploit for high damage opportunities. if they simply do nothing, u get a free 50/50 from the stance. can be stuffed by a few characters though.
B/2B: a very basic attack that benefits from a relatively good SG damage despite being safe. somewhat on the slow side at i24, but has good properties on hit, and transitioning into stance can cause pressure on the opponent.
Siegfried Mixups/Mindgames:
4K:
-4K grd/NH ~ step G(look for whiff to punish, anti non tracking verticals)
-4K grd/NH ~ step 4K(kill retracking highs)
-4K grd ~ B+K SBH(aGI horizontal step kills)
-4K grd/NH ~ 4B+K SSH(space short ranged moves for punish by SSH)
-4K grd/NH ~ 6A(step kill people who like to attack after)
-4K grd/NH ~ 4K(TC high moves to continue aggro)
-4K NH ~ step 1B/grab mixup(force mixup)
-4K NH ~ stance mixup(risky, but can catch your opponent off guard)
-4K CH 3B(combo)
-4K CH ~ stance mixup(exploit opening for free stance transition + pressure + high potential damage)
-4K CH ~ b4(SG damage fishing)
good against: cassandra
bad against: sophitia, kilik
moves/situations that kill it: mid ranged mid/low step kills(mostly non horizontal. if horizontal, they're exploiting the SBH aGI gap), tracking verticals, long ranged pokes, strong spacing(doesnt kill it, but limits options)
...go nuts jink. i know you'll want to =P