Siegfried Poking/mixup Discussion

i actually have trouble pulling off A+Ka2AA on 360, but i can do it 90% on PS3. i need to play more on 360 so i can get a better feel for the controller
 
Press 2A at about 9-O'Clock (if 12 is straight ahead), after A+K for the slide input, then after building consistancey memorize the rythym and before you know it you'll hardly think about it, however this mixup is risky depending on who you're playing... Another thing (just to enforce), is that the last two hits of A+Ka2AA are a natural combo, following through gives you only a couple options on wake-up, first is 3{B} for some small ground damage, second is a rushdown between A+K~etc, or 6B+K~SRSH(mix) near the wall or edge, last is if you dash in you can apply 6B from a safe distance to work on thier soul gauge... I have a wake-up guide, and I may end up posting it after I correct any mistakes and see if I missed anything... These wake-up options for A+Ka2AA should be uninterrubtable...
 
A 40 dmg NC low combo was never going to be safe, but fear advantage gives a lot of oppertunity for A+K K mixup so it's not all doom and gloom.
 
A+K K is -2 on hit and -16 on block. And I know I'll be looking for that feint animation after A+K now...

So thinking about the opponent's perspective here, A+K is hit/guarded, first guard high watching for the feint. If it stops there, the Sieg probably screwed up something, just grab him. Punish A+KK if it comes. If the first low (A+Ka2A comes, block and punish with an i15. The second hit will be interrupted anyway. If the high A+KA comes, you can block it and then guard low, paying attention to what happens next. The rest of the string followups are high or low, but if Sieg transitions into Chief Hold you'll have to react quickly to interrupt him, or just guard, it's not like that stance is threatening anyway, and all stance transitions can be dealt with appropriately. Though all this can be mentally taxing if you mix everything up.

I think people are sleeping on a+kA. It's i15, with decent range, appears to track to one side, is safe, and is a whopping +10. It's -10 on block isn't such a big deal, since it looks like A (which is very good on block) and the next in the string is a high or a low. I'd definitely twitch duck after blocking it.

Also a+kA[A] (0 on block). This side hold transition is even better than [A] (-2 on block) and on hit (+13) SSH A (i21) is uninterruptable! On block, SSH K (i15) is a decent CH possibility. Still, I just duck and watch for the mid against this stance, so it's not that amazing.
 
Signia said:
A+K K is -2 on hit and -16 on block. And I know I'll be looking for that feint animation after A+K now...

So thinking about the opponent's perspective here, A+K is hit/guarded, first guard high watching for the feint. If it stops there, the Sieg probably screwed up something, just grab him. Punish A+KK if it comes. If the first low (A+Ka2A comes, block and punish with an i15. The second hit will be interrupted anyway. If the high A+KA comes, you can block it and then guard low, paying attention to what happens next. The rest of the string followups are high or low, but if Sieg transitions into Chief Hold you'll have to react quickly to interrupt him, or just guard, it's not like that stance is threatening anyway, and all stance transitions can be dealt with appropriately. Though all this can be mentally taxing if you mix everything up.

I think people are sleeping on a+kA. It's i15, with decent range, appears to track to one side, is safe, and is a whopping +10. It's -10 on block isn't such a big deal, since it looks like A (which is very good on block) and the next in the string is a high or a low. I'd definitely twitch duck after blocking it.

Also a+kA[A] (0 on block). This side hold transition is even better than [A] (-2 on block) and on hit (+13) SSH A (i21) is uninterruptable! On block, SSH K (i15) is a decent CH possibility. Still, I just duck and watch for the mid against this stance, so it's not that amazing.
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thats actually a very good observation you made with A+Ka2AA being interruptible by i15's. im impressed. the same also goes for a+ka2AA. however that property is unique to these two low strings.

as for a+kA yes its also good. but even if not stepped completely it tends to whiff through the opponent if they step to siegs right.

while a+kA{A} may be good frame wise, the actual practicality of the transition is questionable as most people will duck when they see a+kA(even when it's disguised as AA, y wouldnt you duck the 2nd A in AA?) this transition really only comes into use if ur opponent tries to jump a+kA2A, interrupt a+kA2A or attempts to step-G punish the a+k{A} SCH transition. so even if the mid in the stance itself is reactable, it likely wont even come to the point where you have to react to it at all. and SSH A is i22(or i122 if u look at a typo u just made me find in the wiki lol...)
 
I dunno, I rip Amy out of A+K with a+kAA all the time, it's just situational.
Well, Amy's bad enough to let me predict A+K at least. :/
 
Though a very good observation was a+kA/ neutral A mixup - I never really see other Siegs use it but it's very good for pressure, paticularly by the wall.
 
I can only do A+K mix using 88_22K :/

I use iWS B in mixups a lot along with all his WS based attacks i.e FC throw, WS K, WS A etc.
 
Then you're doing something wrong - you shouldn't be in close enough to use iWS B a lot in almost every matchup, save specific circumstance, even if it is really handy. That tells me you play him too aggressively. Try to keep your opponent at about 2A tip range and the SSH backstep is gold unless you're fighting sisters.
Also, bear in mind iWS B can still get you schooled on block - Sophie, X, Yoshi & Sets most notably will punish you till your head spins so be careful.
It's a good punisher and a good poke against slower characters but don't rely on it - you have to be able to fight without it to.
Typically I just use it for high crush and punishing nowadays =\.
Jink & Slayer are pretty iWS B heavy though so watch their mirror fights in the god section if you want to see it used defensively.
Also guys, 22{B}, G, 22{B}, G, 22{B}, SSH K - haha! Frametrap bitch! I've been pissing off Rugi players to no end with variants of it XD.
Recently I've started following up CH 1K with RCC a+kA to keep advantage, but at +10, what do we think the best followups are? I'm quite fond of A as it pushes them straight back to tip range on block, with agA, B6 and 4B+K as mixup options, any other ideas?
 
there, i fixed it for you =P its easier if ya just use {} or () brackets. the [] ones with the B in them form the code for Bold text

and yea, i use iWS alot because its a good move to step and use since its safe, it has relatively good SG, and it provides potential chip damage. it can even be a decent offensive tool if u use it wisely. you gotta be careful about abusing this though, as not only can the entire mixup be step G'd to your left, faster characters can simply kill you outright. however its good if you need to throw out a move to punish/pressure but arent exactly sure ur gonna hit. it also helps your opponent to back off a little. not to mention its a *great punisher =P but again its quite easily stepable, especially vs players educated with sieg. the only reason u dont see me or jink step it often is because its difficult to do online. but i'll do it occasionally online, and when that happens depending on my confidence, u'll either eat 2A, WR B, or 33B from FC into forced block/50-50 mixup. an interesting note is that sieg 22B can actually TC under SCH A.
 
Vs. iWS B I use 8B+K as I can then whiff punish with B into good oki/ 1B techtrap. It's a good move but a tad easy to work around if you predict it.
 
Synraii said:
Then you're doing something wrong - you shouldn't be in close enough to use iWS B a lot in almost every matchup, save specific circumstance, even if it is really handy. That tells me you play him too aggressively. Try to keep your opponent at about 2A tip range and the SSH backstep is gold unless you're fighting sisters.
Also, bear in mind iWS B can still get you schooled on block - Sophie, X, Yoshi & Sets most notably will punish you till your head spins so be careful.
It's a good punisher and a good poke against slower characters but don't rely on it - you have to be able to fight without it to.
Typically I just use it for high crush and punishing nowadays =\.
Jink & Slayer are pretty iWS B heavy though so watch their mirror fights in the god section if you want to see it used defensively.
Also guys, 22{B}, G, 22{B}, G, 22{B}, SSH K - haha! Frametrap bitch! I've been pissing off Rugi players to no end with variants of it XD.
Recently I've started following up CH 1K with RCC a+kA to keep advantage, but at +10, what do we think the best followups are? I'm quite fond of A as it pushes them straight back to tip range on block, with agA, B6 and 4B+K as mixup options, any other ideas?
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uhhh no, i play him close him range. I don't see why I shouldn't. His mixups are poor outside that range anyway. I know which characters can punish WS , i meant vs general cast. Although the most they get is AAs unless they land on CH.
Why? cuz i have access to FC throws, regular throws, 1K, K, aG:A mixups, 22kA based stuff. Also he's notoriously weak on his right side, which means i'm to gamble 3A or 33A (which is high and slowish). I rather take my chances up close and personal. 1K and 4K combined with GI and my TC stuff and B+K and 2_8B+K application, serves me well at that position.
 
You realise that those crouch throws are unsafe, slow and have little damage potential.
And the flaw in your strategy is that at close range even if you only get punished for low damage, you will eat that punisher off of everything which I can assure you totals up. Although I've never seen you play your style is distinctly similar to my own a few months ago & although I fully respect the guts that style takes, there is a fine line between bravery and stupidity. Siegfried is a ranged monster, his advantages are born from range, not frames & if you play him up close and personal, the odds are you will lose for it. =S
Eg. If you played an opponent of absolutely equal skill in a Sieg mirror, who would win, your aggression style or a spacing/zoning Sieg?
Don't get me wrong, I fully understand and respect your style, but from personal experience I just don't see how it compares to using his range =\
 
Crouch throw is unsafe, but worth the risk. Opponents usually break it than block it cuz of it's speed. The only thing that gets punished would be WS and the throw really. Playing safe with SIeg gets you nowhere.
I would've agreed u with a long time ago but after playing for so long and see people block all my ranged lows and stepping/evading my mid options, because most of my range stuff ends up being either linear or high, some adjustments had to be made.
Who would win in a mirror? the one who plays better.
 
damn! i could have sword i posted my reply here! i guess i forgot to press post...well here i'll post it again...this is why i dont like posting when im sleep deprived...

ok so

1) you cant step WR B with 8B+K unless you step the initial move(that is WR B, which is i17...) and it would be stepping to his strong stance side anyways...yea WR {B} is one of those things where its good to use, but not to abuse because of its 1 glaring weakness of all of SCH being stepable. (not to mention the less subtle weakness of the fact that the entire stance can be killed by moves that are i12 or faster.)

2) sieg is...slightly weaker to his right than to his left, but that doesnt mean he cant deal with step to that side. 1A, 6A, agA, 66A all do a fairly good job with that. even 3A tracks slightly to the right. and i cant remember what side it tracks to, but 4A can deal with step too. most of these work most effectively at mid range.

3) close range is good for applying pressure and forcing mixups. long range is good for baiting, poking and whiff punishing. mid range gives you the option to execute all of these. siegfried has a time and a place for each and every1 of these individual zones(ie close range on wake up, long range at push back, mid range after step) and this can be easily adjusted with use of 4B+K and his wondrous front step. hes a mixup monster up close, a punishing monster at mid range, and a baiting monster at far range. at close range his poking game is dreadful, its average at mid range, and at far range vs 85% of the cast he can throw out almost whatever he wants and it wont be punishable anyways due to zoning. of course there are certain situations where being at long range is just as bad for siegs health as is being at close range(some characters can really punish sieg hard if he tries to zone them, such as sophy, ivy, or even amy). siegfried IMO is best suited as a mid range character because at that range he is better suited to adapt to the current situation he is in.

4) 2_8B+K are actually quite situational as far as stepping goes. they dont step very well, and not only does it take 25 frames to execute step, but to enter the stance and then block after takes 19 frames, making your step G come out at i40. and your fastest option(SCH K) would still come out at i31, assuming your in range. of course, if instead of using this in place of step, we use it to bait whiffs in a similar fashion to 4B+K, then the tool becomes far more effective in scoring free damage and possible techtraps/SG damage for sieg.

5) crouch throws can be good for getting little damage, applying limited pressure, and simply setting up mind games to catch your opponent off guard. however they're not by any means a staple low for sieg. but on the contrary they should not be overlooked either. use them in well planned situations. plus they're -16, so sophie could potentially buffer TAS B to punish them. we all know how much sieg gets owned by sophie TT-TT

in reality sieg is actually quite adaptable and versatile. there is more than one way to play him. whether you prefer zoning, rushdown, or a mix of the 2 is your choice. its not so much the zoning method as it is the way you apply technique and strategy into the mix. sieg can pressure well, but he'll never be an aggro character like xianghua. on the contrary he can zone well, but he'll never be a zoning beast like ivy or even raph. using sieg is about adapting to your surroundings and your opponents movements. wanna take risks? go ahead. wanna play calculated? go ahead. however mix it up to create calculated risk taking situations and you become all the more deadly. for example:

Option 1: risk taking
neutral 6B+K~SRSH K_B/A+B ~ high chance of transition getting interrupted, chance of getting stepped, chance of opponent out zoning all options except A+B/A, chance of opponent guessing right and punishing the result(excluding A+B). damage potential = high. risk rating = very high.

Option2: calculated risk taking
3{B} SCH K ~ 6B+K SRSH K_B/A+B(on wake-up) ~ chance that opponent will guess right and will punish the result(excluding A+B). chance that opponent will stay down or roll. SRSH K_B is a forced mixup, SRSH A+B is a forced block for good SG. damage potential = high. risk rating = moderate.

so yea. sieg can be played any manner of ways, but is best suited for an adaptable zoning/pressure style combat. hes even got strong mixups off punishment options, even if the punishment itself is low damage he usually gets a free stance mixup, tech trap or SG damage.

in a sieg v sieg mirror, the most tactical, adaptable siegfried would usually win. whether they were solely a zoning siegfried, a rushdown siegfried or a balanced siegfried wouldnt matter.
 
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